The Saints: A Summary

[Rowan]

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

~John 1:6-8, emphasis added

Notice the language "through him" and verse 8: "He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light."

This passage about St. John the Baptist sums up my view of how the saints relate to Jesus and the faith. So...what's wrong with that?

 

[Rhamiel]

very nice post

 

[SeraphimSarov]

So...what's wrong with that?

THAT'S NOT IN THE BIBLE

Oh wait...

 

[Rowan]

...and still no rebuttal?

Well, I guess you can stop implying we're idolaters then.

 

[Uphill Battle]

...and still no rebuttal?

Well, I guess you can stop implying we're idolaters then.

touchy touchy.

I've never levelled the accusation that praying to Saints is idolatry. However, I fail to see how this passage vindicates the position.

(as for the month long thing, I've noticed a HUGE drop of in interest in this forum since it changed to add Hagiography. Not as much interest, I guess, with the large number of "cheerleading the saints" kind of threads.)

 

[PaladinValer]

Because the whole notion of Saintly veneration is to see Christ through the Saints.

When we venerate the Saints, it is in honor of them but also of Christ, for in them, a very clear picture of Christ shines through vividly.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ok so, venerate 'til your happy.
Do you have to talk to them & ask them to do stuff, tho? It seems so ...I don' know,... pagan.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Ok so, venerate 'til your happy.
Do you have to talk to them & ask them to do stuff, tho? It seems so ...I don' know,... pagan.

beyond that, veneration =/= petitioning.

I have no problem with people respecting the "Saints" [SIC], talking about them, depicting them in art, emulating them, but the praying to them, kissing their pictures, wearing them around your neck, having your "patron" saints, is way WAY overboard. I do not believe Christ ever intended humans to receive the kind of adoration that they do. I believe that we are to Adore Christ. Wax poetic all you want to about how great a Christian this saint was, or how gentle this saint was, cool. They make for inspiring examples. I feel it is an example of how we (humans) take a good thing, and profane it.

 

[Rick Otto]

What about paradin' with statues?

(Sorry, couldn't help myself, Uphill).

 

[Uphill Battle]

What about paradin' with statues?

(Sorry, couldn't help myself, Uphill).

s'alright. IF that's what they want to do for kicks, whatever. I won't be attending.

 

[PaladinValer]

Ok so, venerate 'til your happy.
Do you have to talk to them & ask them to do stuff, tho? It seems so ...I don' know,... pagan.

It is actually more Pagan not to venerate Saints I'd argue.

 

[Rick Otto]

s'alright. IF that's what they want to do for kicks, whatever. I won't be attending.

I'll bring ya home one of those great Italian sausages from the Santa Lucia festival then, if ya don't have a problem with meat offered up to ...uh,... Santa Lucia.

Man! Whoever thought of putting fennel in sausage was a genius!

 

[Rick Otto]

It is actually more Pagan not to venerate Saints I'd argue.

You know what? In a sense I agree with you.
I feel like I am venerating the Saints when I venerate Jesus, 'cause that's what they did.

So... can I have a cool robe & a neat hat?( )

 

[Rowan]

What I think is very weird:

~If I kiss a picture of a family member who has fallen asleep, I'm sentimental. If I kiss (venerate) an icon of the Theotokos, I'm going "overboard". What's the difference?

~Demons are said to hold us back, bring our destruction, and "whisper in our ears", but the angels and the saints are said to have no influence over us spiritually. Why attribute more to defeated demons than to Christ's victorious saints?

People may not see Christ glorified in the saints (while we venerate and "parade around with our statues), but we do. That's far from pagan. Our saints proclaim that "Jesus is Lord", and thats only possible through the Holy Spirit, as the Bible says.

I actually see the reaction as a byproduct of our society than based on any real theological reason. The dualist separation between earth and the spiritual realms is an innovation in the history of man, let alone Christianity.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Rowan;What I think is very weird:

~If I kiss a picture of a family member who has fallen asleep, I'm sentimental. If I kiss (venerate) an icon of the Theotokos, I'm going "overboard". What's the difference?

Motivation.

~Demons are said to hold us back, bring our destruction, and "whisper in our ears", but the angels and the saints are said to have no influence over us spiritually.

SAYS WHO!?!! St Martin Luther & St. John Calvin had plenty influence!

Why attribute more to defeated demons than to Christ's victorious saints?

Indeed... and why attribute to saints what scripture attributes to Christ's alone?

People may not see Christ glorified in the saints

I do!

...(while we venerate and "parade around with our statues), but we do.

I see Christ glorified in the saints, but not in parades glorifyi... I mean venerating the saints themselves.

That's far from pagan.

Sorry, I see no veneration parades in scripture...

Our saints proclaim that "Jesus is Lord", and thats only possible through the Holy Spirit, as the Bible says

Amen, sister.

I actually see the reaction as a byproduct of our society than based on any real theological reason.

Funny, that. I see the action as a byproduct.

The dualist separation between earth and the spiritual realms is an innovation in the history of man, let alone Christianity.

That's why I stick with only scriptural seperations between the spiritual realms & the world.

 

[Rowan]

Motivation.

Well, "what's my motivation?"

SAYS WHO!?!! St Martin Luther & St. John Calvin had plenty influence!

Indeed... and why attribute to saints what scripture attributes to Christ's alone?

Such as...?

I do!

Awesome.

I see Christ glorified in the saints, but not in parades glorifyi... I mean venerating the saints themselves.

That would be okay if that were your opinion, but for some reason, "saint glorification" (according to you) is seen as a factual witness for our faith. So you understand what we mean by our symbols and ceremonies more than we do? Do not some Non-Christians assert the same when referring to our particular "delusion" (that is, Christ saves)?

Sorry, I see no veneration parades in scripture...

There's a lot of things Protestants do I don't see in Scripture, but not being a Sola Scriptural-ist, I don't see anything wrong with some of it. Let's reeeeeally not play that game...yet again.

Amen, sister.

......just kidding

Funny, that. I see the action as a byproduct.

Veneration as an innovation you mean? Sure...if "innovation" means within the last 2000 years...

That's why I stick with only scriptural seperations between the spiritual realms & the world

Like the devil being able to be in the presence of God in Job? Like Jacob being granted a vision of the ladder to heaven? Like the Prophets appearing on Mt. Tabor, talking with Christ (Who had not yet ascended)? Like the Psalms imploring the angels to praise the Lord and saying how the Lord will set His angels about us? About satan being the prince of the air? About how Paul describes the ranks of the angels of heaven and how we are in battle with the fallen ones? Or the passage in Hebrews about the cloud of witnesses? In Revelations, about the lamenting of the saints in heaven about us on earth that they see?

The Annunciation, the devil's temptation of Jesus...I could go on and on.

What separation do you mean?

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=RowanWell, "what's my motivation?"

Sentimentality? I don't realy know.
Are you "kissing up"? Trolling for favors?

Such as...?

Such as St Mary being "mediatrix".

Awesome.

That would be okay if that were your opinion, but for some reason, "saint glorification" (according to you) is seen as a factual witness for our faith. So you understand what we mean by our symbols and ceremonies more than we do?

Hard to say for sure. I definitely have an understanding most RC's don't. And I have a pretty good idea of their understanding, having been born Catholic & having graduated from a Catholic High School. Wouldn't you figure my understanding to be at least on par with the average RC?
Are you denying that venerating saints is a witness of your faith? You threw me on that, sis.

Do not some Non-Christians assert the same when referring to our particular "delusion" (that is, Christ saves)?

Assert what? That your religious activities venerating the saints is a witness of your faith? Sorry, I'm confused.

There's a lot of things Protestants do I don't see in Scripture, but not being a Sola Scriptural-ist, I don't see anything wrong with some of it. Let's reeeeeally not play that game...yet again.

You ARE a Sola Scriptura Girl, if you actualy DO make sure "traditions" agree with scripture, but if you did that, you would leave the RC.

Veneration as an innovation you mean? Sure...if "innovation" means within the last 2000 years...

LOL, no... veneration as idolatry...regression, not innovation.

Like the devil being able to be in the presence of God in Job? Like Jacob being granted a vision of the ladder to heaven? Like the Prophets appearing on Mt. Tabor, talking with Christ (Who had not yet ascended)? Like the Psalms imploring the angels to praise the Lord and saying how the Lord will set His angels about us? About satan being the prince of the air? About how Paul describes the ranks of the angels of heaven and how we are in battle with the fallen ones? Or the passage in Hebrews about the cloud of witnesses? In Revelations, about the lamenting of the saints in heaven about us on earth that they see?

The Annunciation, the devil's temptation of Jesus...I could go on and on.

What separation do you mean?

Well, nothin' fancy... like the seperation that keeps my flesh from physicaly entering it.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I'll bring ya home one of those great Italian sausages from the Santa Lucia festival then, if ya don't have a problem with meat offered up to ...uh,... Santa Lucia.

Man! Whoever thought of putting fennel in sausage was a genius!

fennel in sausage is sooo pagan

everyone knows that andouille is the way to go

 

[Rick Otto]

fennel in sausage is sooo pagan

everyone knows that andouille is the way to go

ROFL, I repent!
I'll look into anduoille "allegro"!

 

[Rhamiel]

it seems like U.B. was saying he was ok with veneration but it is petitioning that bothers him, lets try and focus on this for a little bit