The Sabbath Issue

[BobRyan]

Please show us one verse where Jesus or any of the NT writers commanded gentile believers to observe the Sabbath? When Paul and James, the brother of Jesus, attended a council with all the elders and decided the requirements for gentiles, the Sabbath was not mentioned. Here is where gentiles who did not know the OT law should have been commanded to keep the Sabbath, but they were not.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
...
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
...
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
...
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.​

Acts 13 - Paul commanded the gentiles - in fact almost the entire town of gentiles to "come back next Sabbath" for another gospel sermon.

He did not say "show up tomorrow - we will be having some week-day-1 Bible studies" as so many had hoped.

He does this again in Acts 17:1-5 and again in Acts 18:1-7.

It was "a pattern" according to Luke.

Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel sermons - preached to gentiles.

This is why James refers to it in Acts 15.

And of course Is 66 predicting that this continues even into the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - Is 66:23

Most of those at war against God's Commandments know about these texts - but somehow manage to forget them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Der Alte]

Why do you say that? If he cared he would check out the Jews' basis for observing Sivan 6 and that would answer the question about Nisan 15.

No it doesn't! If you think Sivan 6 proves something about Nisan 15, then quote the scripture and show how Sivan 6 proves anything about Nisan 15.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry if using terms loosely/interchangeably offends anyone, but it does not address my points to make this distinction.
God said why He gave THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL the Sabbath day, and it had nothing to do with ANY other race or all of mankind.

God said it was because He made the planet in 6 days and rested the 7th day after making mankind - Ex 20:11.

God said it was made "for mankind" Mark 2:27.

God said to the Jews that "all mankind" would come before Him and worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" in Is 66:23.

I think we all knew that.

Certainly those pro-sunday sources in my signature line below - knew it.

 

[Der Alte]

Acts 13 - Paul commanded the gentiles - in fact almost the entire town of gentiles to "come back next Sabbath" for another gospel sermon.

He did not say "show up tomorrow - we will be having some week-day-1 Bible studies" as so many had hoped.

Wrong! Paul; did not command anybody to do anything on the Sabbath in Act 13. After the Jews had left the synagogue the gentiles asked Paul to come back the next Sabbath and teach them some more.

He does this again in Acts 17:1-5 and again in Acts 18:1-7.

That some gentiles came to a synagogue is not proof that gentiles were required to.

It was "a pattern" according to Luke.

Scripture? None of this changes anything about the 4 rules given to gentiles in Acts 15, 21.

Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel sermons - preached to gentiles.

Three incidents and nothing required gentiles to do anything on the sabbath.

This is why James refers to it in Acts 15.

Please explain to me how James could refer to something in Acts 15 that did not happen until Acts 17 and 18?

And of course Is 66 predicting that this continues even into the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - Is 66:23

Wrong! This simply means from week to week, just as new moon to new moon means month to month.

Most of those at war against God's Commandments know about these texts - but somehow manage to forget them.

in Christ,

Bob

Reread the citations from Acts 15 and 21 again with the understanding that James could not be mentioning something in Antioch in Act 15, which did not happen until Act 17-18, more than 1000 miles away. on the other side of the Mediterranean sea, in Thessalonica and Corinth.

If gentiles were required to observe the Sabbath the church council in Act 15, with Paul and James.would have said so.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days ​

 

[jamie2014]

No it doesn't! If you think Sivan 6 proves something about Nisan 15, then quote the scripture and show how Sivan 6 proves anything about Nisan 15.

I quoted the scripture they use. Do you not understand it?

 

[THIS]

[FONT=&quot]I did not say or imply that anyone had to learn anything. But this is my position, when someone tries to tell others "what the Bible really says/means" they must have some empirical evidence for it. The NT was written in Greek when 2 or more people disagree about what this or that word really means, there is only one way to settle it, find the meaning of the original word. In this case as I said the Greek word translated "preparation" is Paraskeue.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You contradict yourself. You do imply that one needs to know Greek to know God’s Truth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You changing the English word back to Greek then back to English means nothing to me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. Special days do not mean anything anymore[/FONT]

 

[Der Alte]

I quoted the scripture they use. Do you not understand it?

I read the scripture. It does not say what you claim it does. If you think it does then please explain.

 

[CherubRam]

Wrong! Paul; did not command anybody to do anything on the Sabbath in Act 13. After the Jews had left the synagogue the gentiles asked Paul to come back the next Sabbath and teach them some more.



That some gentiles came to a synagogue is not proof that gentiles were required to.



Scripture? None of this changes anything about the 4 rules given to gentiles in Acts 15, 21.



Three incidents and nothing required gentiles to do anything on the sabbath.



Please explain to me how James could refer to something in Acts 15 that did not happen until Acts 17 and 18?



Wrong! This simply means from week to week, just as new moon to new moon means month to month.



Reread the citations from Acts 15 and 21 again with the understanding that James could not be mentioning something in Antioch in Act 15, which did not happen until Act 17-18, more than 1000 miles away. on the other side of the Mediterranean sea, in Thessalonica and Corinth.

If gentiles were required to observe the Sabbath the church council in Act 15, with Paul and James.would have said so.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days ​

Quote: "If gentiles were required to observe the Sabbath the church council in Act 15, with Paul and James.would have said so."

Because they were already keeping the seventh day Sabbath it was not an issue.

Quote: Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Gods commandments were written in stone, and the Mosaic laws were hand written by Moses.

 

[CherubRam]

 

[Der Alte]

I did not say or imply that anyone had to learn anything. But this is my position, when someone tries to tell others "what the Bible really says/means" they must have some empirical evidence for it. The NT was written in Greek when 2 or more people disagree about what this or that word really means, there is only one way to settle it, find the meaning of the original word. In this case as I said the Greek word translated "preparation" is Paraskeue.

You contradict yourself. You do imply that one needs to know Greek to know God’s Truth.
You changing the English word back to Greek then back to English means nothing to me.

No contradiction. The accusation was made that I said or implied that people need to learn Greek to understand the NT. Your objections mean nothing to me. I have encounted many people on this and other forums that have the same belief that they are right and nothing that anyone says will convince them otherwise. Even when their "belief" contradicts scripture.

Jesus is our Sabbath Rest. Special days do not mean anything anymore

I agree but that is irrelevant to any point that I have been discussing. Had you been reading my posts I have been arguing against people who try to posit 2-3 Sabbaths in passion week to support some assumption/presupposition that is not clear to me.

 

[Der Alte]

Quote: "If gentiles were required to observe the Sabbath the church council in Act 15, with Paul and James.would have said so."

Because they were already keeping the seventh day Sabbath it was not an issue.

Prove it from scripture? If the gentiles at antioch had been following the law, it would not have been necessary for a council to decide that Judizers from Jerusaelm were wrong trying to require gentiles to circumcise and follow the law.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

Quote: Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Gods commandments were written in stone, and the Mosaic laws were hand written by Moses.

Wrong, again! The term "law of Moses" included all the law.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?​

The Jews divided the T'nakh into three parts, the law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms.

Luk 24:44 And he [Jesus] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.​

 

[CherubRam]

Quote: "If gentiles were required to observe the Sabbath the church council in Act 15, with Paul and James.would have said so."

Because they were already keeping the seventh day Sabbath it was not an issue.

Quote: Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Gods commandments were written in stone, and the Mosaic laws were hand written by Moses.

 

[CherubRam]

Prove it from scripture? If the gentiles at antioch had been following the law, it would not have been necessary for a council to decide that Judizers from Jerusaelm were wrong trying to require gentiles to circumcise and follow the law.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

Wrong, again! The term "law of Moses" included all the law.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?​

The Jews divided the T'nakh into three parts, the law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms.

Luk 24:44 And he [Jesus] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.​

Moses did come down from the mountain with commandments written in stone to give to the people. You twist every word you can to make your point, then you avoid any difficult question. Do you really think you have fooled me?

 

[jamie2014]

Prove it from scripture? If the gentiles at antioch had been following the law, it would not have been necessary for a council to decide that Judizers from Jerusaelm were wrong trying to require gentiles to circumcise and follow the law.

What does the law have to do with Sabbath observance?

The command was to remember the Sabbath. How could the people of Jacob remember something they had never heard of?

Actually, the seventh day Sabbath was established at creation, not at Mt. Sinai.

 

[CherubRam]

Prove it from scripture? If the gentiles at antioch had been following the law, it would not have been necessary for a council to decide that Judizers from Jerusaelm were wrong trying to require gentiles to circumcise and follow the law.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

Wrong, again! The term "law of Moses" included all the law.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?​

The Jews divided the T'nakh into three parts, the law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms.

Luk 24:44 And he [Jesus] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.​

Weasel words do not count. Stick to the subject. Circumcision and seventh day Sabbath are two different subjects.

 

[Der Alte]

Moses did come down from the mountain with commandments written in stone to give to the people. You twist every word you can to make your point, then you avoid any difficult question. Do you really think you have fooled me?

You have no difficult questions. I have answered everything you have asked from scripture. You have not proved in any way that there were two different laws one by God and one by Moses. When the Jews referred to "the Law" they meant all of it, the first five books of the Bible.

 

[Der Alte]

Weasel words do not count. Stick to the subject. Circumcision and seventh day Sabbath are two different subjects.

You have not proved that gentiles in Antioch were already observing the Sabbath. Circumcision is part of the law, the Sabbath is part of the law. Paul, James and the council said nothing about gentiles observing the Sabbath.

 

[CherubRam]

You have not proved that gentiles in Antioch were already observing the Sabbath. Circumcision is part of the law, the Sabbath is part of the law. Paul, James and the council said nothing about gentiles observing the Sabbath.

I see not point in speaking any more to you on the subject. You dismiss everything.

 

[Der Alte]

What does the law have to do with Sabbath observance?

The command was to remember the Sabbath. How could the people of Jacob remember something they had never heard of?

Actually, the seventh day Sabbath was established at creation, not at Mt. Sinai.

Actually the Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.​

The Jews would not have directed gentiles to observe the Sabbath. So where would they have leaned about the Sabbath?

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gentiles May Not Be Taught the Torah.

Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a). And yet if a Gentile study the Law for the purpose of observing the moral laws of Noah, R. Meïr says he is as good as a high priest, and quotes: "Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments, which if a man do, he shall live in them" (Lev. xviii. 5). The text does not specify an Israelite or a Levite or a priest, but simply "a man"—even a Gentile ('Ab. Zarah 26a).

Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," and it was probably directed against the Christian Jews, who disregarded the Mosaic laws and yet at that time kept up the observance of the Jewish Sabbath. Rabbina, who lived about 150 years after the Christians had changed the day of rest to Sunday, could not quite understand the principle underlying Resh Laḳish's law, and, commenting upon it, added: "not even on Mondays [is the Gentile allowed to rest]"; intimating that the mandate given to the Noachidæ that "day and night shall not cease" ( לא שבתו ="have no rest ") should be taken in a literal sense (Gen. viii. 22)

GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.​

 

[jamie2014]

Actually the Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

At the time, yes. Are you caught in a time warp?