Reasonably Sane
With age comes wisdom, when it doesn't come alone.
- Oct 27, 2023
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Again, I disagree.Scripture says differently.
No. I'm using the example of the looking at a woman with lust in your heart. His audience thought they were doing fine since they didn't commit adultery. Jesus said, nope. And those that didn't kill. Did they hate? Yep. I look at my Christain brothers throughout my life (including myself) and notice that every single one harbors hate to one degree or another in their heart against others from time to time. You can do better as you mature, but you can't be perfect.So Jesus teaching to not break the least of these commandments means that we can break them freely.
Go read my thread Is sinning necessary. There is a lot of Biblical sinning is not necessary.No. I'm using the example of the looking at a woman with lust in your heart. His audience thought they were doing fine since they didn't commit adultery. Jesus said, nope. And those that didn't kill. Did they hate? Yep. I look at my Christain brothers throughout my life (including myself) and notice that every single one harbors hate to one degree or another in their heart against others from time to time. You can do better as you mature, but you can't be perfect.
And perfection is all that works. We're all like a bunch of guys training to run and jump successfully over the Grand Canyon. We have no better chance than the guy that sits around and eats big macs all day. We'll only make it across on Jesus' back. Period. That was his point, IMO.
But it doesn't mean we should "sit around and eat big macs all day" either.
You are closer to doing the very things Daniel speaks of with tendencies of arrogance and ignorance. Most of the same Christians who worshipped on the Resurrection Day were also the early martyrs.It's a legit question as you gave a list negative of motives and said the church didn't do the change for those motives.
Daniel says the opposite.
Daniel 9: 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
I'm confused, I asked if we were to do the opposite of what Jesus said and we are free to break the least of the commandments and you said no, but then go into all the reasons as if we are able to break the least of them.No. I'm using the example of the looking at a woman with lust in your heart. His audience thought they were doing fine since they didn't commit adultery. Jesus said, nope. And those that didn't kill. Did they hate? Yep. I look at my Christain brothers throughout my life (including myself) and notice that every single one harbors hate to one degree or another in their heart against others from time to time. You can do better as you mature, but you can't be perfect.
And perfection is all that works. We're all like a bunch of guys training to run and jump successfully over the Grand Canyon. We have no better chance than the guy that sits around and eats big macs all day. We'll only make it across on Jesus' back. Period. That was his point, IMO.
But it doesn't mean we should "sit around and eat big macs all day" either.
How is it arrogance to quote scripture?You are closer to doing the very things Daniel speaks of with tendencies of arrogance and ignorance. Most of the same Christians who worshipped on the Resurrection Day were also the early martyrs.
My point is that none is righteous. We all sin, and we don't reach a point where we no longer commit sins. None of us do. But we are forgiven for all sins, past, present and future. After all, ALL of my sins were future sins when Jesus paid the price.I'm confused, I asked if we were to do the opposite of what Jesus said and we are free to break the least of the commandments and you said no, but then go into all the reasons as if we are able to break the least of them.
My point is that none is righteous. We all sin, and we don't reach a point where we no longer commit sins. None of us do. But we are forgiven for all sins, past, present and future. After all, ALL of my sins were future sins when Jesus paid the price.
The good news is that we don't "try not to sin" to ensure salvation, but rather because we love our Father and wish to do his will out of love, not fear of the wages of sin. And don't kid yourself, sin does damage every person who commits it even though you may be saved. Plenty of famous preachers have fallen from grace when they acts of adultery are discovered. It may destroy their family, and their ministry, but they don't lose their salvation.
That's why I tend to believe that the real "hell" experienced by people who commit sins (all of us) is in this life on earth. We're here to learn, and we learn some tough lessons when we sin. But those that have accepted his free gift and repented are still saved.
So once saved always saved?My point is that none is righteous. We all sin, and we don't reach a point where we no longer commit sins. None of us do. But we are forgiven for all sins, past, present and future. After all, ALL of my sins were future sins when Jesus paid the price.
The good news is that we don't "try not to sin" to ensure salvation, but rather because we love our Father and wish to do his will out of love, not fear of the wages of sin. And don't kid yourself, sin does damage every person who commits it even though you may be saved. Plenty of famous preachers have fallen from grace when they acts of adultery are discovered. It may destroy their family, and their ministry, but they don't lose their salvation.
That's why I tend to believe that the real "hell" experienced by people who commit sins (all of us) is in this life on earth. We're here to learn, and we learn some tough lessons when we sin. But those that have accepted his free gift and repented are still saved.
First, No, that is not what I'm saying. When I posted that I was thinking of Paul's words on the subject in Romans 6, starting at verse 1.What it sounds like you're saying is if we in believe in Christ we don't have to change- He died for our sins, future present past and therefore we can continue on the same path we have always been on and be saved in our sins.
This is not what the bible teaches. We are not saved in our sins, we are saved from sin Mat 1:21 and when we truly believe in Christ we die of self (sin and our old ways) and are recreated in Him who is without sin. If we stumble along the way, we have a High Priest and Advocate who is faithful to forgive us when we confess and will cover us in His righteousness and can keep us from sin. Sin is of the devil 1 John 3:8 and we are either a slave to sin, or a slave to Christ. Rom 6:16
The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 through Christ and His free sacrifice we can choose life, but we need to die of self (sin) and be reborn in Him. The Ten Commandments shows us our sin like a mirror, so we know the way God wants us to live, which is depending on His righteousness Psa 119:172 and not our own.
There very much is a hell and today no one is in hell, today we are in our test, not hell, hell just means the grave and in the end those who can stand which is a question in Revelation before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ who have been transformed in the image of God and have the same faith of Jesus who kept the commandments of God Rev 14:12 John 15:10 will be reconciled back to God Rev 22:14
Thanks for the chat and God bless.
Yep. The question is, is one actually saved? Language can be complicated. An example: If a thing is said to have been being destroyed, that means that its final condition would have to have been "destruction". Otherwise, the statement that it was being destroyed was not true. Perhaps a better wording would have been "being damaged". I don't believe one can be saved and then lose that salvation. I believe those that "lose their salvation" were never actually saved in the first place. Think of the seed thrown on the rocks in Matther 13:20.So once saved always saved?
So what a Christian believes is irrelevant?Yep. The question is, is one actually saved? Language can be complicated. An example: If a thing is said to have been being destroyed, that means that its final condition would have to have been "destruction". Otherwise, the statement that it was being destroyed was not true. Perhaps a better wording would have been "being damaged". I don't believe one can be saved and then lose that salvation. I believe those that "lose their salvation" were never actually saved in the first place. Think of the seed thrown on the rocks in Matther 13:20.
However, I need to point out that this is only my opinion, and I see it as one of those "non-doctrinal*" beliefs.
* That is, my salvation doesn't depend on my belief on that subject. And with more study my opinion could change, possibly. Major beliefs that I held as a new Christian that have since changed are the belief in pre-tribulation rapture and belief in an Eternal Conscious Torment "hell" for those that die without accepting Jesus' free gift. I belief that there will be consequences for believers that die, as well as rewards. After all, 1 Cor 3: 10-15 is pretty clear (bold mine):
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."
No, but again, what does the "seed thrown on rock" believe?So what a Christian believes is irrelevant?
Yes. Sorry for not clarifying. I just assumed it was intuitively obvious.Are you talking about the parable of the sower and the rocky soil?
Out of context in regard to the Sunday worship it certainly is. You are basically saying Mary Magdalene was wrong to worship the risen Lord on the Resurrection Day ( Matthew 28:9). At this point it was the end of the sabbath ( Matthew 28:1). So you are quoting scripture against the worship of the Lord on the Resurrection day and randomly applying Daniel 7:24-25 as your support although you inadvertently (?) & incorrectly linked Daniel 9:24-25 to those verses or whatever you claim to say.How is it arrogance to quote scripture?
Huh? How am I saying Mary Magdalene was wrong for instinctively falling at Jesus feet and worshiping Him? I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion.Out of context in regard to the Sunday worship it certainly is. You are basically saying Mary Magdalene was wrong to worship the risen Lord on the Resurrection Day ( Matthew 28:9). At this point it was the end of the sabbath ( Matthew 28:1). So you are quoting scripture against the worship of the Lord on the Resurrection day and randomly applying Daniel 7:24-25 as your support although you inadvertently (?) & incorrectly linked Daniel 9:24-25 to those verses or whatever you claim to say.
Who are you to speak against the Christians who embraced worship of the Lord on the Resurrection Day? The early Church knew what the prophet Isaiah said in Isaiah 1:13-17. This is echoed by St. Paul in Colossians 2:16-19.
I earlier demonstrated that the ancient church understood the Lord’s Day of Revelation 1:10 as the Resurrection Day of worship. To boot, I tried to stress I was not arguing against anyone who chooses to keep the Saturday sabbath. I was only defending the faith understanding of the Sunday worship.
Well we agree on something!BTW, regarding the use of the word "hell" in the bible. I believe the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.
The more I think about it and read the bible, pray, and meditate on the purpose of life, the more I'm convinced our life in this reality is a form of boot camp. We're here to learn, and apply what we learn in eternity. I'm sure it's far complicated than that, but it's the best I can do with my limited information.Well we agree on something!
If the lost burn in hell eternally, that makes them immortal and only God gives the saved immortality once He comes. I believe death will be an act of compassion and love. Not everyone will be happy in God's heavenly Kingdom, Lucifer wasn't and God would not want someone eternally unhappy. Why its important today to take on the image/character of God which is reflected through His holy law.
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