Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
One more point to throw out: Didn't Paul say that the 'man of lawlessness' was already at work in his day?
"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God....for the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, 7
I've got a few questions for both Tall and DL, who I think are looking at the same tree from different angles:
Tall:OntheDL:
- The argument that Catholics use to say that the change originated from the time of the Apostles; do they have any proof for this? Why would it not be recorded in Scripture that they did so?
- Dan 7:25 begins with 'He...' - refering to the little horn power. This 'He' speaks out against the Most High, wears down the saints, will intend to make alterations in times and law... - this 'He' power, we refer to as the 'anti-Christ.' From what I see, you and OntheDL need to clarify what is agreed is the anti-Christ - the Pope's themselves, or the whole system of the papacy? From Dan 7:25, the 'He' seems to fit with the latter.
- Note Dan 7:25 says 'He' will 'intend' or 'think' to make changes to times and law; does this infer that the 'He' actually initiates the change? Does this infer that the 'He' attempts to make something official? The main point of contention here, is how we interpret the translation 'think to change' or 'intend to make alterations.' What do you think?
- Even if Catholics claim that Christ handed down authority to Peter, does this mean that Peter acting on his own human will had authority to change the eternal Law of God?
I think nobody is disagreeing here on the identity of the little horn, and the eternity of the Sabbath.
- I do not think that Tall is presenting an anti-adventist argument. They would probably outright proclaim our discussion is futile since the Sabbath is Christ Himself, or that it has long since been abolished.
- The CC does claim the change was officiated by her, and I do agree with you on this. But, how do we address Catholics who make their argument (with historical sources) that Sunday observance originated way earlier than any Pope declared it official?
- What do you think of the 'intend'/'think' to change times and laws translation and how we interpret that?
- Even if Sunday observance was practiced by some early Christians, then would this even rule out the fact that the Papacy as described in Dan 7:25 would 'think' to change times and laws, seeing as the CC openly admits that it has?
- On a side note, YOU were an atheist?? Wow! Talk about much to learn and unlearn!
Jon
Jon
...
Jon
Peter was never the Pope in Rome. No scriptural reference. And he was married. He did go to Rome. But during his time, the church in Jerusalem was the 'home' church. Paul brought controversial issues to Jerusalem to settle. And notice in Acts 15, Peter was not even the head of the church in Jerusalem. It was James who gave conclusion of the so-called council of Jerusalem.
OntheDL said:For the SDAs who made baptismal vows to recognize the spirit of prophecy, it clarifies Dan 7:25---the papacy changed the sabbath to sunday. At this point, if the history is silent: no historic doc's or proof, there is enough to believe what the bible has revealed on this.
OntheDL said:Faith involves the element of unseen. 'I gotta know everything before I can believe.' Then you will NEVER believe.
OntheDL said:So what does it matter when and how the practice began but who signed it into law under the penalty of death?
The Jesuits' art of war is confusion. By attacking a person's credibility, his/her teaching is comprised. By focusing on obscure and inconsequential issues, the real issue is void.
Agreed.I agree with most of this, but one thing needs to be clarified. It wouldn't have mattered at that time if Peter were married; that's not a relevant argument against the claim that he was the first pope. Celibacy of priests and bishops wasn't mandatory until later. This is something that also developed over time and was not original. Even today it is not doctrine but practice in the Latin Rite Church, and Eastern Rite Catholics do not require it.
I'm not talking to non-adventists, am I? I'm talking to professed SDAs in regard to the statements made by a retired SDA professor of theology who contradicts the spirit of prophecy which professed SDAs are supposed to hold as authoritative.That's not the point. You can't use those sorts of arguments with non-Adventists. How well do you think that would go over in GT? We can't credibly defend our beliefs on the Sabbath to others unless we acknowledge their real issues with it. Oh, and by the way, I do uphold the Sabbath, and I have argued for it many times in GT.
The doctrines of the bible needs no proof from historic record or science. Both involve man's effort which is error prone. It'd be nice but not necessary.None of us are saying that we have to know everything before we believe, but faith isn't completely blind either. If everything were completely clear with no room for doubt, there would be no need for faith in the first place. If our beliefs are true, they will stand the test of investigation, and we will come out with a stronger faith.
It matters because you can't convince anyone to whom these issues are important of the validity of your arguments if you don't understand their arguments. These are not inconsequential details.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?