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The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

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heymikey80

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How can the Fathers have believed in SS while they agreed with the councils?
Applying the consistency test to this question: How can Calvin have believed in SS while he agreed with the councils?

Hm, the consistency test does not appear to apply very well, here. Could you clarify what you mean?
if you go on SS then would you also agree with Tradition?
Not as authoritative.
Just curious to where you are all getting to?
Clear Apostolic precedence.
If they Fathers were SS they would not have abided to the Tradition of the Church period!
See the response to the first question
Instead of nitpicking on the Fathers why not just say that they used Scripture?
Hm. I thought that you guys considered the ECFs to have some authority. But ah, well, I guess there's merit in sola scriptura anyway.
The whole idea of using scripture is NOT in opposition to Tradition as scripture comes from the same Tradition.
And the whole idea of using historical traces of tradition is not in opposition to Scripture, because Scripture is not pervasively imposing. The question is one of ultimate authority. It is not a question of completely uniform practice.
Now if you want to prove the opposite ...
It always seems to be an error of the opposition to consider their opposition 180-degree opposed.
... go ahead but do tell us WHERE you see the aftermentioned Fathers to deny Tradition. They just do not.
Well, "go ahead and tell us WHERE you see the aforementioned Reformers deny Tradition. They just do not."
Just because I like chocolate ice-cream also does not mean I like it "solo"
Once again, the mistake is assigning it "solo" in the aberrant characterization of the opposition, instead of acquiring the prior information about "sola scriptura" as the sole infallible authority in matters of faith & practice.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Sister, It may be that you disagree with what these esteemed Orthodox Church Fathers herein wrote (doesn't surprise me). And that's noted. But they were (and are) offered as further aids to understand the practice. They seem to ME to be in harmony with what is spelled out in the opening post and in the definition of the practice as shared there.

Just read the red font quotes. Now go back and read the opening post - the definition and then "what it is" and "what it is not."




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Philothei

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heymikey80

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Would it then be safe to conclude that a church father addressing the entire church need not conform to the doctrines committed once for all to the saints, nor commend the same to them? That is a far leap from what the Apostles said & did.
 
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Philothei

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Philothei

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Would it then be safe to conclude that a church father addressing the entire church need not conform to the doctrines committed once for all to the saints, nor commend the same to them? That is a far leap from what the Apostles said & did.
What you tell people pastorally has nothing to do with dogma perse. Saying that God is love does not necessarity mean that God is ONLY love. Paul talks about love in paradigms and analogies pastorally the same. All his letters are pastoral in nature that is the Apostolic way for sure
 
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Philothei

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You are quoting some snipits I already anwered your post if you care to reply that is great if not posting this over and over does not establish "validity" either. Any father can say many things they are not binding. Some Christians make the same mistake in qualifying dogma and fall in error for this manner.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Some VERY big and critical realizations here. I am (being completely honest here)... AMAZED at times at how different the EO can RC are at times. As much a I'd LOVE (!!!) to discuss all that, you raised one very important point: "Tradition" is denominational, Scripture is ecumenical. Yes, they both need to be "interpreted" but one is us and the other is outside and above us; one is each looking at the Tradition of self, the other is all of us looking at the inscripturated black and white words of God.


The other point I find both irrelevant and largely wrong. Yes - between 1400 BC and 100 AD, the corpus of Scripture was growing. Yes - for a time, what is and is not Scripture was a matter of SOME significance (it still is in an irrelevant way - no denomination but yours alone agrees with your denomination on what is and is not Scripture, it's just that it really doesn't matter in practice). BUT, the discussion is about NOW - not in 33,413 BC.
"the embrace of Scripture as the norma normans as WE evaluate the dogmas in dispute among US." How appropriate you may have felt Jesus was in using this 2000 years ago is irrelevant, we don't live 2000 years ago.





But the Bible as a document is not to be used as an only "measure" to dogma or replacing it. It is a gathered account of witness that we humans have about God.
Understood. But if we add "Tradition" - you already supplied one problem: whose? Every denomination answers: "MINE! As I alone currently interpret my alone!" It ends up with self looking in the mirror at self and then shouting, "Gee, I think I look like me!" (And probably does, lol). The other problem is more complex. If such is norma normans, then it is EQUAL and INSEPARABLE and UNITED with Scripture (since there is no "ranking"), both equally "true" if you will. Thus, it MUST be true that they are in full agreement (if only by implication) since truth can't be different than truth. Ergo, whatever is in Tradition (remember the problem you mentioned) MUST be present in Scripture since truth = truth and because these TWO rules must form ONE rule/canon/norma normans, "one stream" as the RCC puts it. All it does is means that Scripture is mandated to agree with that denomination's current interpretation of whatever that denomination regards as "tradition" since such is "Truth." To make ANYTHING equal, inseparable and united with Scripture as THE norma normans simply makes Scripture irrelevant because the other always is seen as more complete, more clear, more to the point - and since it's True, God MUST teach the same (however invisably). Oh how my Catholic (and later Mormon) teachers went to SUCH lengths to stress me to me....

Now, IF, my full and unseparated sister, IF you are trying to say, "Scripture is primary, but there are some things UNDER that that help us understand it" - that's not such a problem (depends!). As many have pointed out to you, Sola Scriptura is not "SOLO Scriptura." As we go to the NEXT STEP - arbitration - there may be many things "on the table" - but they would be UNDER Scripture, they would not be norma normans. Tradition would not tell us the view (and then Scripture "read" so as to affirm it), Scripture would tell us the view (and then Tradition help us in hermeneutics and arbitration regarding the black and white words on the page).



Your passionate rejection of what your Orthodox Church Fathers wrote suggests to ME that you don't accept Scripture as the Rule but desire something else in that role (if you accept that role at all). YES - I realize you strongly disagree with what all those Orthodox Church Fathers wrote in these quotes. POINT NOTED AND UNDERSTOOD (and frankly, expected). And yes - it strongly suggests to me you don't regard Scripture as normative or you would be agreeing, not so passionately objecting - to what these Saints wrote.





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Philothei

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CaliforniaJosiah

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What is "us" ? Naw... It is not the scripture is not black and white. Look we do not even agree on a translation... never mind interpretation that is the beef of the argument.


Read the opening post, especially the section: "what it is NOT."

Yes, the words of Scripture are all words, all of them. Black letters forming knowable words on a white page. Pretty objective, pretty knowable.



Wrong again what scripture is most denominations have almost the same canon with slightly bigger or smaller canon that does not necessarily make it a tremendous difference.
If the Catholics around here are right and there are 50,000 denominations, then 49,996 have exactly the same books. The other 4 denominations each have a unique embrace of what is and is not Scripture, none of them agreeing with any but itself exclusively - principally the OOC (several different embraces actually), the EOC, the RCC and the LDS. Only in the case of the LDS does it make any difference.





I thought you maintained that SS always existed not you say "now" ?
You're wrong. I did not.


It's irrelevant what may or may not have been used in 13,456 BC or in 5 BC or even in 200 AD. The year in 2011. Read the opening post. Read the definition. It says "US", not "them." It is all CURRENT, PRESENT tense - it says nothing about what Abraham should have used for this specific purpose.





It was the church 'tranlating" the scripture; it was the church interpreting it also. Period.
Let's return to the topic of this thread, okay?






How is Apostolic Tradition safeguarded?
It depends on whether truth matters, what is embraced as the norma normans, and what happens in arbitration. But let's get back to the issue of this thread.




If Apostolic Tradition is "under" scripture then it would remain somehow irrelevant to the Scripture in our times that you already have admited that it does not relate.
1. Whose Apostolic Tradition? The LDS's? The OOC's? The RCC's? You seem to be under the impression there's some objective book out there, one we all can find at the library or our favorite bookstore, entitled, "Apostolic Tradition."


2. It's it's true, then it has nothing to worry about. Unless you think that what a denomination says some Apostle said (but has ZERO evidence of such) is MORE inspired, MORE reliable, MORE true than is God's Scripture.




I am not rejecting what the Fathers say
Ah, that does surprise me. If you don't reject, does that mean you accept what these Orthodox Church Fathers herein state?


< staff edit > < staff edit >

If you don't reject what these Orthodox Church Fathers herein state, do you therefore agree with them?







.
 
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Thekla

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He teaches a doctrine of the intercession on our behalf of those reposed in Christ.

Indeed if this is Scriptural, then it is embraced by all who adhere to Sola Scriptura.
 
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Thekla

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I have read the presentation on the ECFs given here by Sola Scriptura adherence; the use of these quotations do not adhere to any standard of historical or textual analysis.

The sort of twisting, misrepresentation, distortion and "bullying to win" without regard for respect for the thought of those quoted, or interest in engaging in actual research to determine what is historically factual that is evidenced by those here who embrace the praxis of Sola Scriptura is the strongest recommendation against embracing the tradition of SS.

It calls every Scriptural interpretation they espouse into question, and truly suggests that the Way of Christ is not important when one has the opportunity to assert the supremacy of one's ego and win at any cost - without regard or interest in actual truth.

The behavior persistently evidenced by some SS adherents in this forum degrades the reputation of the Churches they claim affiliation to, and is certainly an affront to even the common standards of human decency.

Further, on another level, there is no interest in intellectual nor academic integrity - this sort of quote mine antic is certainly not acceptable in any institution of higher learning, a fact which should be of interest for those who so post claiming to have earned such an education.
 
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katherine2001

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He teaches a doctrine of the intercession on our behalf of those reposed in Christ.

Indeed if this is Scriptural, then it is embraced by all who adhere to Sola Scriptura.

And since those of us who do pray for the intercession of the saints often get accused of being idol worshipers, that isn't the case, is it?
 
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fhansen

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So is "norming" sort of a majority vote? How does one determine what the norm is, to judge norming by? Also, what if, as in the case of Luther and Calvin, one determines that baptism is essential for salvation while the other doesn't?
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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So is "norming" sort of a majority vote?

This thread is about WHAT is embraced as the rule ("straight edge") - canon ("measuring stick") - norma normans (the norm used to norm) for norming.

Arbitration according to it might be in various forms; this thread is not about that since Sola Scriptura is not about that. See the opening post, the section "What It is NOT."





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heymikey80

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He teaches a doctrine of the intercession on our behalf of those reposed in Christ.

Indeed if this is Scriptural, then it is embraced by all who adhere to Sola Scriptura.
As I've pointed out, numerous people teach things that they think are Scriptural, but aren't.

Cyril makes mistakes. Clearly he either made the mistake of claiming for Scripture a position he's not giving it, or he's made the mistake of assuming a Greek version of Hades. Hm. Which would it be?

The concept however is stated by Cyril.
And since those of us who do pray for the intercession of the saints often get accused of being idol worshipers, that isn't the case, is it?
I believe that iconography that draws this charge, is it not?
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Cherry picking the Fathers does not prove the point. It just proves that some pick and chose whatever they want from Tradition.

I understand that you disagree with what these several Orthodox Church Fathers and Saints herein wrote. That doesn't surprise me all that much. As noted, they are herein quoted only and solely to note additional definitions and descriptions (I purposely looked for them from sainted, esteemed EO Church Fathers); IMO they rather well match the definition and description in the opening post and as defined and described by Protestants. But yes - you disagree with what they wrote in these quotes, I know. Thank you for once again making that clear! It has been well noted.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





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