The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

Albion · Dec 11, 2018

Jason0047 said:
The point here is that there is no such thing as Scripture alone without God.

That's right. It's also why anyone who speaks of Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura need to understand what Sola (alone) means in those expressions.

It doesn't mean that Faith or Scripture are self-created or unrelated to anything else, but just that it/they alone accomplish the function associated with them, as opposed to them being one of several (such as saying that Scripture and Tradition both establish doctrine or that Faith and good deeds both are effective in bringing about salvation).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 11, 2018

Albion said:
That's right. It's also why anyone who speaks of Sola Fide or Sola Scriptura need to understand what Sola (alone) means in those expressions.

It doesn't mean that Faith or Scripture are self-created or unrelated to anything else, but just that it/they alone accomplish the function associated with them, as opposed to them being one of several (such as saying that Scripture and Tradition both establish doctrine or that Faith and good deeds both are effective in bringing about salvation).

I created a new thread to discuss Sola Fide.

How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

Blessings to you in the Lord.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 11, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Hello Jason God bless.

Lots to discuss. I will take smaller sections to look at. I am busy today I'll try to get back later.

I am by no means saying the holy scriptures are a second fiddle or not a rule or somehow not profitable today and all men should do is listen to God inwardly. Even a fiddler must have a ability to play the fiddle and some natural ability before he can play the sheet music of the fiddle.Some have played music and couldn't read sheet music.

I spoke of the use of scripture in my post and their importance and use along with the Primary rule of God working in men by His Spirit and through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All the three aspects of being made perfect work in harmony and do not contradict. That is, if men do indeed have the scriptures or the body of Christ then they can walk in harmony with them. If they do not have the scriptures and are not connected directly to the body of Christ God can still work in them and help them and they can have life as many scriptures testify to. Consider all the men who had no scriptures before Moses and beyond and even until to day. Do we say they were all lost and God could not reach then or work work in them? I think of a believer who is put in prison alone with no other believers till his death. Is he now not able to have faith and walk with God because he cannot read scriptures. Or, I think of a retarded person who cannot read or write and is alone somewhere. Or the many people who were on the earth before any scripture was written. But this is a long discussion of how God reaches the uneveangelized. It is connected to the mystery of Christ and for another post perhaps.

But the three ways God can makes us perfect I spoke of already 1. By God directly in us working (which is the primary rule) 2. by the body of Christ and Christ effectual working in every part and from whom came the scriptures of the New Testament, 3. By the Holy scriptures which are able to make us perfect through faith (first) which is IN CHRIST JESUS This is obvious or else the pharisees by simply reading the scriptures as they did would have heard God's voice and would have had faith. But they did not hear God's voice or His word or have faith and inwardly they were ravening from the Spirit (which is the first and initial rule and witness in their heart.

You know that I see the true Light that lighteh every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9) is the first rule or witness to all men from Adam and to all without the scriptures from Adam to Moses and beyond from Moses with scripture until today. All have this true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Though not all are in that Light or have the new birth until they receive him in their hearts. This true Light is the life and light of men, This true Light is the Word of God that is God. This is not speaking of the scripture here or else men would have to worship the Bible as God. This is not the case we do not worship the holy scriptures as God. I am not trying to separate God's word from scripture. But I am showing the truth of the word as a seed sown in the heart, this is the true Light that lighteth every man with or without scripture.

I see this true Light as the free gift that came upon ALL men everywhere on the Earth purchased for them in time by Jesus Christ and his death on the cross burrial and resurrection for all. God was able to give men this free gift before Christ came in the Old Testament but only because Jesus Christ would come in the future. God calls those things that aren't as though they were. But they could not enter into the fulness without us and they were in a place called Abraham's Bosom until Christ accomplished the work for them, then he led captivity captive.

Even the Gentiles God can reach and witness to by the primary rule ALL over the entire earth as we read in Romans 2:14,15 We see that God would judge the "secrets of men" one day. So even if they don't have scriptures or the law (scriptures) God is able to work in them in the secret part. David also spoke of God desiring truth in the inward and hidden parts (Psalm 51) I speak again of the mystery here, which is vital to this entire discussion But consider that the Gentiles did not have the law (or the written scriptures) and yet God is able to witness to them and speak to their hearts by His inner witness of the seed, word, true Light, the truth they hod in unrighteousness. This witness in their heart shines and is called the work of the law written in their hearts. This is the way God deals with all men both Jew and Gentile since the beginning. The word is nigh or close unto all men (Deuterononmy 30:9- with Romans 10).

But I am pointing to the first primary rule, which is The Spirit of God and to be in Christ walking and living in the new creation where God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work

Abraham and others were in the "primary rule" through faith and had no scripture yet

We see men like Abraham, Noah, and many others who God worked in and who had faith before and without scripture being written down yet. Paul even uses Abraham as an example of a man with faith before the law was given ( before scripture was written) and before circumcision. Part of his reason for doing this was to point to the fact that a man can be justified without the works of the law and that it is a spiritual life in faith where believers live. If we say that without the bible no man can have faith and that it is necessary to be saved and have faith "alone". Then we miss the inner working of God by His true Light in all men and this is where men hear the word of God inwardly. The word is a seed sown in the heart Abraham also had this seed (Christ) in him as Galatians 3 speaks of. This is the same seed in all believers today. This would be the first and primary rule. Then from that life in Christ men spoke forth the scriptures by the Spirit of God and wrote them down. You cannot have the scriptures first before the Spirit of God was working in their hearts. This is the primary rule again as i have been showing. But in the case of Abraham and others before the law (scriptures) were written we see men having faith and salvation and Christ in them, Paul said,

"9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"(Romans 4:9-16)

We also read that Christ dwells in the heart by faith

Ephesians 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;..."

And so all Old testament saints who did not have scripture yet could still have faith and could still have the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world in them and guiding them. This is the seed or word sown in their hearts which is Christ in them the hope of glory. Faith is the substance of things "hoped for" the EVIDENCE of things not seen. Christ in you is the hope of glory

Consider that some of these men did not have scriptures yet but they had faith (ie. Christ dwelling in their hearts)

Hebrews 11

"1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."(Hebrews 11:1-12 KJV)

Talk soon I have to step out

God bless

As I pointed out before, brother. I believe God operates in this way:

I also believe in Prevenient Grace, which says that God first draws all men to Himself (He illuminates understanding of His Word) so that a person can either have the free will choice to either accept the gospel or reject the gospel freely. Without this drawing or illumination from God, they would not be able to understand His Word (the Bible). This truth is founded on Scripture. So I do not disagree that we first need God as a part of our faith. When we talk about Scripture, it is never absent of God and His working. You appear to want to separate the two by creating a first rule and a secondary rule. Before the Bible, God communicated differently but it was never by some still small voice, or inner feeling alone. God either spoke audibly, and or by the Scriptures.

I also believe 1 John 2:27 that says that we receive an anointing to understand Scripture and do not have need that any man teach us. Without the anointing (abiding in the Spirit and asking God for understanding concerning His Word) we cannot understand His Word and be taught. But this would be in harmony with Scripture in what it says. The Holy Spirit works with men to help them understand Scripture if they are seeking to obey the Word of God (Scripture). If a person is disobedient, and they are trying to justify sin like the Pharisees then they will not understand the Scriptures because they are violating them (See Matthew 23:23, cf. Luke 11:42).

So I think we agree that we both need God and the Bible. Where we disagree is the terminology. Where we disagree is the adding of new revelation or prophecy or in allowing the communication of voices to speak to us outside of His Word. Where we disagree is the allowing of miracles for the church body today. While I am not claiming that if you or anyone else hears the actual voice of God and has seen miracles in their life is not of God (Because I do not want to speak against God if I am wrong), I believe Scripture clearly teaches that God speaks to us by His Word (the Bible) alone today (Including by the revealing of the Holy Spirit obviously - because they are connected) and I believe tongues, new words of prophecy (or revelation) and the gifts of doing miracles has ceased. For me: I see that there is a danger to opening ourselves up to something outside of what the Bible says. The Bible (with God working by His Spirit illuminating His people to understand it obviously and a person abiding in Christ, and the church body) is all we need for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness. God is working through His church or the body. God is working through His Word (ever active). So Scripture is being put forth by God by the church body and by God. So when we say Sola Scriptura (God and His working either through the Spirit directly, or by Christ working in us, or by His working through the church body) is a part of Scripture because Scripture reveals these truths to us and because God works in harmony with His Word on these matters to make them to come to pass.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 11, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Hello Jason God bless.

Lots to discuss. I will take smaller sections to look at. I am busy today I'll try to get back later.

I am by no means saying the holy scriptures are a second fiddle or not a rule or somehow not profitable today and all men should do is listen to God inwardly. Even a fiddler must have a ability to play the fiddle and some natural ability before he can play the sheet music of the fiddle.Some have played music and couldn't read sheet music.

I spoke of the use of scripture in my post and their importance and use along with the Primary rule of God working in men by His Spirit and through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All the three aspects of being made perfect work in harmony and do not contradict. That is, if men do indeed have the scriptures or the body of Christ then they can walk in harmony with them. If they do not have the scriptures and are not connected directly to the body of Christ God can still work in them and help them and they can have life as many scriptures testify to. Consider all the men who had no scriptures before Moses and beyond and even until to day. Do we say they were all lost and God could not reach then or work work in them? I think of a believer who is put in prison alone with no other believers till his death. Is he now not able to have faith and walk with God because he cannot read scriptures. Or, I think of a retarded person who cannot read or write and is alone somewhere. Or the many people who were on the earth before any scripture was written. But this is a long discussion of how God reaches the uneveangelized. It is connected to the mystery of Christ and for another post perhaps.

But the three ways God can makes us perfect I spoke of already 1. By God directly in us working (which is the primary rule) 2. by the body of Christ and Christ effectual working in every part and from whom came the scriptures of the New Testament, 3. By the Holy scriptures which are able to make us perfect through faith (first) which is IN CHRIST JESUS This is obvious or else the pharisees by simply reading the scriptures as they did would have heard God's voice and would have had faith. But they did not hear God's voice or His word or have faith and inwardly they were ravening from the Spirit (which is the first and initial rule and witness in their heart.

You know that I see the true Light that lighteh every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9) is the first rule or witness to all men from Adam and to all without the scriptures from Adam to Moses and beyond from Moses with scripture until today. All have this true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Though not all are in that Light or have the new birth until they receive him in their hearts. This true Light is the life and light of men, This true Light is the Word of God that is God. This is not speaking of the scripture here or else men would have to worship the Bible as God. This is not the case we do not worship the holy scriptures as God. I am not trying to separate God's word from scripture. But I am showing the truth of the word as a seed sown in the heart, this is the true Light that lighteth every man with or without scripture.

I see this true Light as the free gift that came upon ALL men everywhere on the Earth purchased for them in time by Jesus Christ and his death on the cross burrial and resurrection for all. God was able to give men this free gift before Christ came in the Old Testament but only because Jesus Christ would come in the future. God calls those things that aren't as though they were. But they could not enter into the fulness without us and they were in a place called Abraham's Bosom until Christ accomplished the work for them, then he led captivity captive.

Even the Gentiles God can reach and witness to by the primary rule ALL over the entire earth as we read in Romans 2:14,15 We see that God would judge the "secrets of men" one day. So even if they don't have scriptures or the law (scriptures) God is able to work in them in the secret part. David also spoke of God desiring truth in the inward and hidden parts (Psalm 51) I speak again of the mystery here, which is vital to this entire discussion But consider that the Gentiles did not have the law (or the written scriptures) and yet God is able to witness to them and speak to their hearts by His inner witness of the seed, word, true Light, the truth they hod in unrighteousness. This witness in their heart shines and is called the work of the law written in their hearts. This is the way God deals with all men both Jew and Gentile since the beginning. The word is nigh or close unto all men (Deuterononmy 30:9- with Romans 10).

But I am pointing to the first primary rule, which is The Spirit of God and to be in Christ walking and living in the new creation where God works in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work

Abraham and others were in the "primary rule" through faith and had no scripture yet

We see men like Abraham, Noah, and many others who God worked in and who had faith before and without scripture being written down yet. Paul even uses Abraham as an example of a man with faith before the law was given ( before scripture was written) and before circumcision. Part of his reason for doing this was to point to the fact that a man can be justified without the works of the law and that it is a spiritual life in faith where believers live. If we say that without the bible no man can have faith and that it is necessary to be saved and have faith "alone". Then we miss the inner working of God by His true Light in all men and this is where men hear the word of God inwardly. The word is a seed sown in the heart Abraham also had this seed (Christ) in him as Galatians 3 speaks of. This is the same seed in all believers today. This would be the first and primary rule. Then from that life in Christ men spoke forth the scriptures by the Spirit of God and wrote them down. You cannot have the scriptures first before the Spirit of God was working in their hearts. This is the primary rule again as i have been showing. But in the case of Abraham and others before the law (scriptures) were written we see men having faith and salvation and Christ in them, Paul said,

"9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"(Romans 4:9-16)

We also read that Christ dwells in the heart by faith

Ephesians 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;..."

And so all Old testament saints who did not have scripture yet could still have faith and could still have the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world in them and guiding them. This is the seed or word sown in their hearts which is Christ in them the hope of glory. Faith is the substance of things "hoped for" the EVIDENCE of things not seen. Christ in you is the hope of glory

Consider that some of these men did not have scriptures yet but they had faith (ie. Christ dwelling in their hearts)

Hebrews 11

"1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."(Hebrews 11:1-12 KJV)

Talk soon I have to step out

God bless

On the Wikipedia article on Sola Scriptura, it states this:

"Lutheranism teaches that scripture is united with the power of the Holy Spirit and with it, not only demands, but also creates the acceptance of its teaching.[33] This teaching produces faith and obedience. Scripture is not a dead letter, but rather, the power of the Holy Spirit is inherent in it.[36] Scripture does not compel a mere intellectual assent to its doctrine, resting on logical argumentation, but rather it creates the living agreement of faith.[37]"

Sola scriptura - Wikipedia

In other words, Sola Scriptura is not saying that it is absence of God's working for us to understand and or obey it.

Side Note: Granted, I am not Lutheran (mind you) and or nor do I believe in Lutheranism as a whole, but I do agree with their explanation on Sola Scriptura.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 11, 2018

Also, what are you putting your faith into when you first come to Christ? A feeling? No. The Bible. The first and only rule of faith is the Bible (Which God ever actively works with) because that is what you are putting your belief (faith) into. How can you know or put your faith in the Spirit that you do not know yet when you first come to Jesus for salvation? Also, we do not know about the Holy Spirit and how to walk and abide in him unless we have the instructions of God's Word (Scripture) on how to walk and abide in the Spirit. So the first rule of faith (of what we put our belief into) is the Bible and not what we learn later about what we read concerning the Spirit and how we are to abide and walk in the Spirit.

LoveofTruth · Dec 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
GOD Reveals Himself To Us By His Word:
(GOD is connected (ever presently working) with Scripture & One Cannot Cut GOD out of His own Word (the Bible)).

A person can have their experiences today to trust in by sight, but I prefer to trust the words of Jesus that says: "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29).

Hello Jason, God bless

The sight a believer has is with spiritual eyes and the hearing is with spiritual ears. Consider these text

John 3:3
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."(Matthew 13:15,16 KJV)

"22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."(Revelation 3:22 KJV)

Jason0047 said:
A person may prefer to walk by their senses or special experiences, but I prefer to walk by faith and not by sight. For without faith, it is impossible to please GOD (Hebrews 11:6).

To walk in faith is to walk seeing the things that are invisible and we look not on the things that are seen. To walk in faith is to walk in the Spirit and to be led by the Spirit.
To walk in faith is to have our spiritual senses exercised as we read in scripture

Hebrews 5:14
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

"16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day...18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."(2 Corinthians 4:16,18 KJV)

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jason0047 said:
A person may seek to point to their miracles, but I will point them to Jesus Christ by faith in my Bible.

Jesus said

"37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."(John 10:37,38 KJV)

Jason0047 said:
Jesus is the light of my salvation (that I have learned from the Bible) and not something else.

"9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.[All men since Adam] 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. [he was in the world in a mystery and hidden, but the "world" knew him not, this is not just speaking of the Jews, but of all here] 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.[this is the Jews as distinct from all the world]"(John 1:9-11 KJV)

Jason0047 said:
God Himself is spirit.
But we know this because His word tells us this and not some secret voice or inner feeling alone.

His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God.

The religious men of Jesus day had the scriptures and heard Jesus audible voice and yet did not hear his word or have His word abiding IN them as Jesus said. It is not enough to say they have scripture and heard Jesus audibly. The inner witness is the "secrets of men" and the heart where God searches and tries.

Jason0047 said:
The thoughts of God within Scripture is a part of God.

Not sure what you mean when you say the "thoughts of God within scripture are part of God.

God is separate from His creation like a painter who paints a picture though he holds it all together with the word of His power. The things that are made were not made by the things that appear. We do not want to say the Bible is God or worship paper as God. That would be like pantheism. The scriptures and the Spirit are also distinct in scripture even though the scriptures were given by the Spirit (2 Corr 3:6-9 KJV. You cannot cut them out and say they are not of God which leads us to have faith in Him.

Jason0047 said:
Could we have the Bible without God?

The pharisees had the scriptures and thought they had eternal life in them, but they did not have God. or hear his word or have His word abiding in them.

Jason0047 said:
Scripture is God-breathed, and hence represents God’s very voice speaking,

If this was the very case then Jesus would not have said that the pharisees did not hear His word or have His word abiding in them. He that is of God heareth God's words, but they heard them not there fore they were not of God as Jesus said. yet they heard and read scripture and even heard Jesus voice audibly.

Jason0047 said:
Others may seek another outside source of communication in addition to the Scriptures.
A still small voice or an inner feeling, etc.

Jesus Christ is in every believer (2 Cor 13:5 KJV) and if he is in us he also teaches us and speaks. The Father also speaks in us when we are led (Matthew 10) and the Holy Ghost has spoken in men as well (Acts 13). The Spirit guides us to all truth and leads us and we can only know what things the Spirit gives to us and reveals to us. If we needed no immediate revelation or leading and anointing from God to teach us all things (1 John 2:27 KJV) then the pharisees could have simply understood scripture with human wisdom and study and said they heard God's voice by scripture alone, without the supernatural voice of God in their heart speaking by His word to their heart. This voice of God is God himself shining and witnessing to the heart. This is the word that is nigh (or close to all) where Christ speaks inwardly. But the Pharisees were outwardly appearing righteous but inwardly ravenous from the Spirit of God. The light that was in them was darkness and how great was that darkness.

Jason0047 said:
The Bible are words of life that God always abides by and seeks to convict the hearts of men with.
It is only by His Word He does this.
Anything that conflicts with God’s Word is to be questioned and looked at with suspicion. For our faith is built upon the Word of God.

All OT saints in Hebrews 11 had faith (Christ dwelling in them by faith) and had no scriptures from Adam till Moses. We read of men like Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Sara, Noah who were led by God. We do not read in all cases that they heard an audible voice outside of them. God is a Spirit and he speaks to the spirit of man inwardly. He searches the heart and puts wisdom in the heart and his word , the seed is sown in the heart.

Jason0047 said:
God and the Bible go together like wetness and rain. You cannot separate the two.

"6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."(2 Cor 3:6 KJV)

Jason0047 said:
When you talk about the Bible, you talk about God...

although the bible is not God. We read of words of certain saints in scripture speaking to others and they are not God, We read of Satan speaking to Jesus and of many situations in scripture of history and events of men etc. But we do not ever call the bible God or worship scripture as God or even suggest it.

Jason0047 said:
One cannot separate the author of Scripture from Scripture.

We do not separate God from scripture in the sense that scripture is the words of men by their own private interpretations. But we say that God is a Spirit and not a book. We hear the words of God spoken through men and prophets and God has given us a Testimony of Jesus and His character and history and many things. But as Jesus said to the pharisees

"38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."(John 5:38-40 KJV)

Jason0047 said:
Peter said to Cornelius, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons." (Acts of the Apostles 10:34). So God desires that all men are to be saved. God sent Peter to tell Cornelius of the good news. Cornelius was not converted without hearing about salvation through Jesus Christ. For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

You should quote the rest of Peters words. he realized by revelation that God can and has reached many of the gentiles all over the world and they have been accepted with Him. We are all only accepted in the beloved. I believe that Cornelius was already saved as an OT saint before he heard about the name of Jesus. The full complete salvation was to hear of Jesus Christ and his work and to receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is given through the name of Jesus Christ. But if you read chapter 10 he had prayers reach to God and worked righteousness and God said don’t call unclean what God had cleansed (implying the Gentile Cornelius). But that's another discussion. The word "saved" can also imply complete or whole.

Jason0047 said:
Hebrews 1:1-2 says that God in these last days has spoken to us by his Son (Note: The words of Jesus are immortalized in Scripture). So it is not some inner voice or feeling. It is Scripture.

And Jesus said His sheep hear his voice and we are all taught of God and Jesus Christ in us teaches us . The anointing teaches us all things. Does God use words in the anointing to teach us, yes. This by no means says scripture is not needed. It simply puts the primary rule to walk in the Spirit in Christ as a new creation and led by the Spirit and taught ALL things by the anointing as we read (1 John 2:27). If no man can know the things of God or spiritual things unless the Spirit reveal them, then the Spirit is the primary rule and first.

Jason0047 said:
The words of Jesus in Scripture. That is how God speaks to us today.

We do have the words of Jesus in scripture. But no man knows the words or hears Gods voice unless His word , seed, true Light, Christ is in them. Just reading the Bible does not mean men will hear God's words. he that is of God heareth Gods words, if they are not of God they hear them not.

Jason0047 said:
There is no still small voice separate from Scripture

And yet all those in Hebrews 11 had no scripture and could walk and talk with God. They had the seed (Christ) in them. We even read of men hearing that still small voice in their heart and mind.

Jason0047 said:
You cannot separate the Spirit from Scripture

consider this section here,

"6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory."(2 Cor 3:6-9 KJV)

Jason0047 said:
Where there is one there is the other.

And as we read in Hebrews 11 they had the Spirit , Christ in them, and they had no scripture yet.

And it is still true that the true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world, even if they are in the most remote parts of the world and have never heard of Jesus Christ in the history of the story, or the scriptures or ever had any minister come to them. God is still able to reach then no matter where they are on the earth .

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."(Acts 10:35 KJV)

"29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."(1 John 2:29 KJV)

"24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said,.."(Acts 17:24-28 KJV)

ARBITER01 · Dec 13, 2018

"Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

The Holy Spirit didn't say "led by the bible of GOD,.."

Our bible is not the 4th person of the GODHEAD.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Hello Jason, God bless

The sight a believer has is with spiritual eyes and the hearing is with spiritual ears. Consider these text

John 3:3
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."(Matthew 13:15,16 KJV)

"22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."(Revelation 3:22 KJV)

To walk in faith is to walk seeing the things that are invisible and we look not on the things that are seen. To walk in faith is to walk in the Spirit and to be led by the Spirit.
To walk in faith is to have our spiritual senses exercised as we read in scripture

Hebrews 5:14
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

"16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day...18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."(2 Corinthians 4:16,18 KJV)

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I am not doubting that true faithful Christians to Jesus Christ have spiritual discernment or the ability to see things in Scripture that the carnal mind cannot see. The carnal mind cannot understand the things of God because he is carnal or trying to justify sin. But this would be seeing and hearing God's communicated Word (Which was audible at one time and today this would be the written Word). Understanding with the heart on Scripture is digging deep within ourselves about what is truly right and or wrong with the help of God. Many today want to justify sin these days and or doing their own thing. Sin is what blinds a person to not see things with any kind of spiritual discernment that comes from having the anointing of the Holy Spirit. For the Spirit teaches us all things in His Word (the Bible). Having spiritual discernment or to see things spiritually is not seeing the spirit world or seeking to hear a voice or some kind of inner feeling that is outside of Scripture. Spiritual discernment works with our physical senses in understanding the Bible. We read Scripture and we can see what the words say and if we are not seeking to justify sin or evil and we are striving to be genuine and true with God, the Lord can show us the truth of what a piece of Scriptures says; Especially when we constantly think on His Word in what it means over and over (Striving to figure out what it means); And in asking God for help in understanding what His Word says.

Jesus said

"37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."(John 10:37,38 KJV)

Miracles were rare in the Bible and they authenticated the Messenger that he was from GOD and that His words were from GOD.

Moses, Elijah, and Jesus are the three big miracle workers in the Bible and they were all present at the Mt. of Transfiguration together. The apostles or the early church also did miracles but again, this was to confirm the church. We do not need to confirm the church anymore. We have a completed revelation known as the Bible.

The religious men of Jesus day had the scriptures and heard Jesus audible voice and yet did not hear his word or have His word abiding IN them as Jesus said. It is not enough to say they have scripture and heard Jesus audibly. The inner witness is the "secrets of men" and the heart where God searches and tries.

I understand that men heard Jesus audibly and they had Scripture and did not understand it. The question is .... why? Why could they not understand? It was because of their seeking to justify sin. The moment they heed the conviction of their sin by the working of the Spirit and repent is when they will see what God's Word says. They will then have spiritual discernment or understanding in reading the Scriptures.

Not sure what you mean when you say the "thoughts of God within are part of God.

Thoughts of God is exactly that. They are the thoughts of God. The Bible is the communicated thoughts of God in written form. God tells us His story in the Bible. The Bible is a written form of communication that conveys the mind or thoughts of God. The Bible teaches us things like doctrine, instruction in righteousness (all of which come from God). The Bible teaches us how to have a right relationship with the Lord and to abide and walk in Him correctly. Again, this information are the thoughts of God and they are written down in a form of communication known as the Bible. God's thoughts are a part of who He is. For it is by our obedience to God's thoughts expressed towards us that gets our hearts right with the Lord. Our actions to God's written down thoughts can change us. But it is even more than that because God's Spirit is also working to get a person to see if they are open to seeing it.

You said:
God is seperate from His creation like a painter who paints a picture though he holds it all together with the word of Hos power. The things that are made were not made by the things that appear. We do not want to say the Bible is God or worhip paper as God. That would be like pantheism. The scriptures and the Spirit are also distinct in scripture even though the scriptures were given by the Spirit (2 Corr 3:6-9 KJV.

I don't believe in Pantheism where God is the creation or that He is a part of it. God is spirit and He is separate from His creation. But God's spirit can effect the creation. God can change men's hearts (by their obedience to His communicated Word), and God make ground holy, and certain objects holy, etc. by His presence. The entire top of Mt. Sinai was burned by the presence of God. Moses face had shined by His talking to the Lord. So God can effect His creation. I believe the Spirit abides by the Word of God when we read it and are truly seeking the truth from it (asking for help in understanding it). For Scripture says that we have an anointing and we do not need any man to teach us. Scripture also says that His Word does not return void, too. This means God (Who is spirit) is abiding near His Word when people are reading it to convict them of their sin and or to walk righteously, and or to know certain truths.

You said:
The pharisees had the scriptures and thought they had eternal life in them, but they did not have God. or hear his word or have His word abiding in them.

Jesus says abide in me and abide in my words. We have to call upon Christ to live inside us and we also have to obey His words in order to truly have any kind of understanding of the Scriptures. But if one justifies sin like the Pharisees did, they will not have any kind of spiritual discernment and truly read the Scriptures with a proper understanding. They would be approaching things from a sinful or carnal mind and that does not work with God because He is holy and just and good.

Jason0047 said:
Scripture is God-breathed, and hence represents God’s very voice speaking,

You said:
If this was the very case then Jesus would not have said that the pharisees did not hear His word or have His word abiding in them. He that is of God heareth God's words, but they heard them not there fore they were not of God as Jesus said. yet they heard and read scripture and even heard Jesus voice audibly.

No, they did not hear Scripture. They were ignoring it.
Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). Again, sin was blinding them to have any kind of spiritual discernment from God to understand the Scriptures.

You said:
All OT saints in Hebrews 11 had faith (Christ dwelling in them by faith)

I agree that OT saints (including the disciples during Christ's ministry) were saved by abiding in Christ.

Anyways, I will maybe address the rest of what you wrote later, brother. I am tired and need to sleep soon.

I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus;
And may you please be well.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2018

ARBITER01 said:
"Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

The Holy Spirit didn't say "led by the bible of GOD,.."

Our bible is not the 4th person of the GODHEAD.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

This is how we are led by God's Spirit today. We follow the Bible that was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

ARBITER01 · Dec 13, 2018

Jason0047 said:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

This is how we are led by God's Spirit today. We follow the Bible that was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You're adding to the text,.. the text clearly says "led by The Spirit of GOD."

The Holy Spirit didn't place His word in that sentence, and neither should you. That sounds like bible idolatry.

Jesus says the same thing in John,..

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

Jesus said He would speak directly to us, not through our bibles.

LoveofTruth · Dec 13, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I am not doubting that true faithful Christians to Jesus Christ have spiritual discernment or the ability to see things in Scripture that the carnal mind cannot see. The carnal mind cannot understand the things of God because he is carnal or trying to justify sin. But this would be seeing and hearing God's communicated Word (Which was audible at one time and today this would be the written Word). Understanding with the heart on Scripture is digging deep within ourselves about what is truly right and or wrong with the help of God. Many today want to justify sin these days and or doing their own thing. Sin is what blinds a person to not see things with any kind of spiritual discernment that comes from having the anointing of the Holy Spirit. For the Spirit teaches us all things in His Word (the Bible). Having spiritual discernment or to see things spiritually is not seeing the spirit world or seeking to hear a voice or some kind of inner feeling that is outside of Scripture. Spiritual discernment works with our physical senses in understanding the Bible. We read Scripture and we can see what the words say and if we are not seeking to justify sin or evil and we are striving to be genuine and true with God, the Lord can show us the truth of what a piece of Scriptures says; Especially when we constantly think on His Word in what it means over and over (Striving to figure out what it means); And in asking God for help in understanding what His Word says.

Miracles were rare in the Bible and they authenticated the Messenger that he was from GOD and that His words were from GOD.

Moses, Elijah, and Jesus are the three big miracle workers in the Bible and they were all present at the Mt. of Transfiguration together. The apostles or the early church also did miracles but again, this was to confirm the church. We do not need to confirm the church anymore. We have a completed revelation known as the Bible.

I understand that men heard Jesus audibly and they had Scripture and did not understand it. The question is .... why? Why could they not understand? It was because of their seeking to justify sin. The moment they heed the conviction of of their sin by the working of the Spirit and repent is when they will see what God's Word says. They will then have spiritual discernment or understanding in reading the Scriptures.

Thoughts of God is exactly that. They are the thoughts of God. The Bible is the communicated thoughts of God in written form. God tells us His story in the Bible. The Bible is a written form of communication that conveys the mind or thoughts of God. The Bible teaches us things like doctrine, instruction in righteousness (all of which come from God). The Bible teaches us how to have a right relationship with the Lord and to abide and walk in Him correctly. Again, this information are the thoughts of God and they are written down in a form of communication known as the Bible. God's thoughts are a part of who He is. For it is by our obedience to God's thoughts expressed towards us that gets our hearts right with the Lord. Our actions to God's written down thoughts can change us. But it is even more than that because God's Spirit is also working to get a person to see if they are open to seeing it.

I don't believe in Pantheism where God is the creation or that He is a part of it. God is spirit and He is separate from His creation. But God's spirit can effect the creation. God can change men's hearts (by their obedience to His communicated Word), and God make ground holy, and certain objects holy, etc. by His presence. The entire top of Mt. Sinai was burned by the presence of God. Moses face had shined by His talking to the Lord. So God can effect His creation. I believe the Spirit abides by the Word of God when we read it and are truly seeking the truth from it (asking for help in understanding it). For Scripture says that we have an anointing and we do not need any man to teach us. Scripture also says that His Word does not return void, too. This means God (Who is spirit) is abiding near His Word when people are reading it to convict them of their sin and or to walk righteously, and or to know certain truths.

Jesus says abide in me and abide in my words. We have to call upon Christ to live inside us and we also have to obey His words in order to truly have any kind of understanding of the Scriptures. But if one justifies sin like the Pharisees did, they will not have any kind of spiritual discernment and truly read the Scriptures with a proper understanding. They would be approaching things from a sinful or carnal mind and that does not work with God because He is holy and just and good.

No, they did not hear Scripture. They were ignoring it.
Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23). Again, sin was blinding them to have any kind of spiritual discernment from God to understand the Scriptures.

I agree that OT saints (including the disciples during Christ's ministry) were saved by abiding in Christ.

Anyways, I will maybe address the rest of what you wrote later, brother. I am tired and need to sleep soon.

I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus;
And may you please be well.

God bless talk soon

It’s alll good

Healthy discussion in the word.

swordsman1 · Dec 13, 2018

ARBITER01 said:
"Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

The Holy Spirit didn't say "led by the bible of GOD,.."

Our bible is not the 4th person of the GODHEAD.

You are taking that verse out of context. Read the previous verse

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

It is referring to being led by the Spirit to lead a godly lifestyle, rather than following the desires of the flesh. It's not about being taught internally by the Spirit, instead of scripture.

ARBITER01 said:
Jesus says the same thing in John,..

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

Jesus said He would speak directly to us, not through our bibles.

Again that is taking the verse out of context. The "you" that Jesus spoke of in this verse is not every believer, but solely the apostles. In the previous verses Jesus is instructing the disciples about the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost...."for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you....". Now look at the previous verse to the one you quoted, it is clearly aimed at the disciples personally:

“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth"

The Spirit would guide the apostles into all truth, and while under His inspiration they would write down His teachings as scripture.

LoveofTruth · Dec 13, 2018

swordsman1 said:
You are taking that verse out of context. Read the previous verse

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

It is referring to being led by the Spirit to lead a godly lifestyle, rather than following the desires of the flesh. It's not about being taught internally by the Spirit, instead of scripture.

and a few verses from that we read

"16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"(Romans 8:16 KJV)

Here it seems that the Spirit speaks to us that we are the children of God. Do some think that if God is in believers that he does not teach us and speak to us? We read that Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Cor 13:5) and the Father is in us (2 John 1:9) and the Holy Ghost also (Acts 2:4, Acts 6:3) do they not speak to us and teach us?

To be led by the Spirit is to be led into all things and all understanding and all wisdom and all direction and all power that we need.

Yes, through the power of the Spirit believers do mortify the deeds of the body, that is one aspect. But this does not mean they cannot hear God directing and leading them where to go and what to do and how to do all things. You are assuming to much and fabricating a meaning to exclude God speaking to the believers.

The other is to be led by the Spirit into all truth and to have the anointing teach us all things (1 John 2:27 KJV). We must not limit the work of God in believers. We read that God makes us perfect unto every good work to do His will working in us through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV) and he is in us to will and to do. If the Spirit leads us he is speaking and directing us and we hear His voice and follow.

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and he knows them and they follow him.

The Father also can speak in believers

"19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.(Matthew 10:19,20 KJV)

and we read other things like this

"21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."(Isaiah 30:21 KJV)

Jesus speaks of learning of the Father first then coming to him

John 6:45
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

"6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."(John 17:6 KJV)

swordsman1 said:
Again that is taking the verse out of context. The "you" that Jesus spoke of in this verse is not every believer, but solely the apostles. In the previous verses Jesus is instructing the disciples about the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost...."for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you....". Now look at the previous verse to the one you quoted, it is clearly aimed at the disciples personally:

“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth"

The Spirit would guide the apostles into all truth, and while under His inspiration they would write down His teachings as scripture.

We never read of any scripture being written by most of the apostles only from a few of them. This is not meaning all the apostles will write scripture. We also read of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost and speaking with tongues and prophesying from God in them in the New Testament

Jesus was speaking to the believers who were of the Jews at that time. But the promise is to them and as many as are afar off this includes all Gentiles as well and every believer in the body. The body has many parts and we cannot say to one part they are not needed (1 Cor 12). There are many gifts in the body as well and a manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal (1 Cor 12:7 KJV).

The apostles are part of the body of Christ where Jesus Christ works in all parts and teaches in all.

"15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love...21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:"(Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

"27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."(1 John 2:27 KJV)

1 John was not written only to apostles but to all believers and by extention all who would believe in the future as well.

We also read of the Spirit speaking to Philip and directing him were to go. There is no reason to assume that this was an audible voice outside of him. Spiritual things are understood and heard by spiritual ears.

"29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot."(Acts 8:29 KJV)

This leading of Philip to go somewhere and do something shows God leading by the Spirit.

"If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God,...14 But the word is very nigh unto thee...and in thy heart...17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear...20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life"(Deuteronomy 30:10,14,1, 20 KJV)

ARBITER01 · Dec 13, 2018

swordsman1 said:
You are taking that verse out of context. Read the previous verse

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

It is referring to being led by the Spirit to lead a godly lifestyle, rather than following the desires of the flesh. It's not about being taught internally by the Spirit, instead of scripture.

Again that is taking the verse out of context. The "you" that Jesus spoke of in this verse is not every believer, but solely the apostles. In the previous verses Jesus is instructing the disciples about the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost...."for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you....". Now look at the previous verse to the one you quoted, it is clearly aimed at the disciples personally:

“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth"

The Spirit would guide the apostles into all truth, and while under His inspiration they would write down His teachings as scripture.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to this sort of bible idolatry that you and others are promoting here in this section. The Holy Spirit is to "speak" directly to us just like He did with Jesus. I'd be worried if He didn't.

He obviously uses His scripture He wrote to reveal truth, but He also speaks and leads us in truth like He did with Jesus, He is our perfect example to follow.

swordsman1 · Dec 13, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
and a few verses from that we read

"16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"(Romans 8:16 KJV)

Here it seems that the Spirit speaks to us that we are the children of God. Do some think that if God is in believers that he does not teach us and speak to us?

That verse is speaking of assurance of salvation, not about God teaching us via extra-biblical revelations.

LoveofTruth said:
We read that Jesus Christ is in us ( 2 Cor 13:5) and the Father is in bus (2 John 1:9) and the Holy Ghost also (Acts 2:4, Acts 6:3) do they not speak to us and teach us?

Not by some extra-biblical means, unless you have scripture that says otherwise.

LoveofTruth said:
To be led by the Spirit is to be led into all things and all understanding and all wisdom and all direction and all power that we need.

No its not.

LoveofTruth said:
Yes, through the power of the Spirit believers do mortify the deeds of the body, that is one aspect. But this does not mean they cannot hear God directing and leading them where to go and what to do and how to do all things. You are assuming to much and fabricating a meaning to exclude God speaking to the believers.

But that's not what Rom 8:13-14 says. It is only referring to the Spirit's leading in conquering sin, not in providing extra-biblical revelations.

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and he knows them and they follow him.

As I have previously shown, God's metaphorical "voice" is scripture.

www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-we-hear-gods-voice.8091277/page-12#post-73422278

LoveofTruth said:
The Father also can speak in believers

"19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.(Matthew 10:19,20 KJV)

As I have also previously explained to you, that verse is referring to specific unique situation when believers are persecuted and dragged before the courts, and the Spirit will give them the words to say. It doesn't tell us how that process works (presumably the Spirit takes control of their vocal organs), but as it is for a specific situation we cannot apply that as a general rule.

LoveofTruth said:
and we read other things like this

"21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."(Isaiah 30:21 KJV)

You are taking the verse out of context. The word the Israelites heard in their ears was that of their human teachers, not God speaking to them. Read the previous verse.

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus speaks of learning of the Father first then coming to him

John 6:45
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

And again you have taken the verse out of context. It is clearly linked to the previous verse, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." It is nothing to do with extra-biblical revelation. It is speaking of being drawn by the Father and coming to Jesus, as the 2nd half of verse 45 explains.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. "

LoveofTruth said:
We never read of any scripture being written by most of the apostles only from a few of them. This is not meaning all the apostles will write scripture. We also read of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost and speaking with tongues and prophesying from God in them in the New Testament

That has nothing to do with my post. You are creating a straw man.

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus was speaking to the believers who were of the Jews at that time. But the promise is to them and as many as are afar off this includes all Gentiles as well and every believer in the body. The body has many parts and we cannot say to one part they are not needed (1 Cor 12). There are many gifts in the body as well and a manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal (1 Cor 12:7 KJV).

No He wasn't. John 16 takes place at the Last Supper with the twelve. So you cannot compare Jesus personal message to the twelve with the message Peter gave to the unconverted Jews and say it is referring to the same thing.

LoveofTruth said:
The apostles are part of the body of Christ where Jesus Christ works in all parts and teaches in all.

"15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love...21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:"(Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

I have already refuted that argument in a previous post.

"If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him" is a mistranslation of the KJV. Only the King James versions and its derivatives translate Eph 4:21 in that way, and it should not be taken out of context from the previous verse. Other bible versions give a more accurately translation of these 2 verses. It does not say we hear Christ personally, nor does it say we are taught by him as the KJV erroneously makes it appear.

ESV "But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, "

NIV "That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. "

NASB "But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus."

RSV "You did not so learn Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus."

NLT " But that isn’t what you learned about Christ. Since you have heard about Jesus and have learned the truth that comes from him,"

LoveofTruth said:
"27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."(1 John 2:27 KJV)

1 John was not written only to apostles but to all believers and by extention all who would believe in the future as well.

The "anointing" in this verse is referring to biblical teaching, not God. We can tell this from the neuter pronoun "it" at the end of the verse. Plus the "abides in you" here is clearly referring to the same "abides in you" spoken of a few verses earlier - "and the word of God abides in you" (v14) and "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you" (v24).

LoveofTruth said:
We also read of the Spirit speaking to Philip and directing him were to go. There is no reason to assume that this was an audible voice outside of him. Spiritual things are understood and heard by spiritual ears.

"29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot."(Acts 8:29 KJV)

This leading of Philip to go somewhere and do something shows God leading by the Spirit.

Those were actual words spoken to Philip by the Spirit. Luke quotes the exact words the Spirit said in quotation marks. If the Spirit did not say those exact words to Philip then Luke was lying.

As we can see every verse you use to try and justify extra-biblical revelation can easily be refuted.

GTW27 · Dec 13, 2018

LoveofTruth, just stopped by to let you know I believe that you are a good teacher of The Word, and defender of The Faith. And if I were to say, early on, on my walk, that I preached it, even before I read it, How could that be believed? So, brother in Christ Jesus, be encouraged when the world comes against you, for truly, truly, great is the reward, for those who are able to stand. To stand firm in The Faith.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2018

swordsman1 said:
That verse is speaking of assurance of salvation, not about God teaching us via extra-biblical revelations.

Not by some extra-biblical means, unless you have scripture that says otherwise.

No its not.

But that's not what Rom 8:13-14 says. It is only referring to the Spirit's leading in conquering sin, not in providing extra-biblical revelations.

As I have previously shown, God's metaphorical "voice" is scripture.

www.christianforums.com/threads/how-do-we-hear-gods-voice.8091277/page-12#post-73422278

As I have also previously explained to you, that verse is referring to specific unique situation when believers are persecuted and dragged before the courts, and the Spirit will give them the words to say. It doesn't tell us how that process works (presumably the Spirit takes control of their vocal organs), but as it is for a specific situation we cannot apply that as a general rule.

You are taking the verse out of context. The word the Israelites heard in their ears was that of their human teachers, not God speaking to them. Read the previous verse.

And again you have taken the verse out of context. It is clearly linked to the previous verse, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." It is nothing to do with extra-biblical revelation. It is speaking of being drawn by the Father and coming to Jesus, as the 2nd half of verse 45 explains.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. "

That has nothing to do with my post. You are creating a straw man.

No He wasn't. John 16 takes place at the Last Supper with the twelve. So you cannot compare Jesus personal message to the twelve with the message Peter gave to the unconverted Jews and say it is referring to the same thing.

I have already refuted that argument in a previous post.

"If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him" is a mistranslation of the KJV. Only the King James versions and its derivatives translate Eph 4:21 in that way, and it should not be taken out of context from the previous verse. Other bible versions give a more accurately translation of these 2 verses. It does not say we hear Christ personally, nor does it say we are taught by him as the KJV erroneously makes it appear.

ESV "But that is not the way you learned Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, "

NIV "That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. "

NASB "But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus."

RSV "You did not so learn Christ!— assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus."

NLT " But that isn’t what you learned about Christ. Since you have heard about Jesus and have learned the truth that comes from him,"

The "anointing" in this verse is referring to biblical teaching, not God. We can tell this from the neuter pronoun "it" at the end of the verse. Plus the "abides in you" here is clearly referring to the same "abides in you" spoken of a few verses earlier - "and the word of God abides in you" (v14) and "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you" (v24).

Those were actual words spoken to Philip by the Spirit. Luke quotes the exact words the Spirit said in quotation marks. If the Spirit did not say those exact words to Philip then Luke was lying.

As we can see every verse you use to try and justify extra-biblical revelation can easily be refuted.

I like a lot what you are saying so far, brother; But I disagree with your thinking that the KJV is in error in it's translation in Ephesians 4:21. Reading the context we learn Paul is rebuking the Ephesians form of sin in their lives. Paul is mocking the Ephesians in verses 20-21. Paul says sarcastically that they have not so learned of Christ to be sinful (verse 20) if so that they have learned of him (as if to say they were like the twelve who did learn of him personally) (verse 21).

17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:"
(Ephesians 4:17-21).

Verse 20 - Learned of Christ = Christ's teachings.
Verse 21 - A mocking statement that says if you have learned of Jesus personally (as if they were one of the twelve). Paul is mocking them and stating they did not directly receive any teaching from Jesus to think they can sin and think that is okay. They have not so learned of such a thing from Christ (i.e. His teachings). They did not directly witness Jesus teaching them such a thing because they never seen Jesus. Paul can at least boast that he has seen the risen Lord. They cannot boast in such a thing.

As you are aware, the KJV can be tricky because it is written in 1600's English.
Many today like to think it is written in Modern English, but it is not. I believe comparing the KJV with Modern Translations and looking at the context helps to put what the KJV is actually saying in perspective. But in this instance, certain Modern Translations are wrong on it's interpretation of Ephesians 4:21. Paul is mocking them.

swordsman1 · Dec 13, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I like a lot what you are saying so far, brother; But I disagree with your thinking that the KJV is in error in it's translation in Ephesians 4:21. Reading the context we learn Paul is rebuking the Ephesians form of sin in their lives. Paul is mocking the Ephesians in verses 20-21. Paul says sarcastically that they have not so learned of Christ to be sinful (verse 20) if so that they have learned of him (as if to say they were like the twelve who did learn of him personally) (verse 21).

17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:"
(Ephesians 4:17-21).

Verse 20 - Learned of Christ = Christ's teachings.
Verse 21 - A mocking statement that says if you have learned of Jesus personally (as if they were one of the twelve). Paul is mocking them and stating they did not directly receive any teaching from Jesus to think they can sin and think that is okay. They have not so learned of such a thing from Christ (i.e. His teachings). They did not directly witness Jesus teaching them such a thing because they never seen Jesus. Paul can at least boast that he has seen the risen Lord. They cannot boast in such a thing.

As you are aware, the KJV can be tricky because it is written in 1600's English.
Many today like to think it is written in Modern English, but it is not. I believe comparing the KJV with Modern Translations and looking at the context helps to put what the KJV is actually saying in perspective. But in this instance, certain Modern Translations are wrong on it's interpretation of Ephesians 4:21. Paul is mocking them.

I'm not sure I would dismiss the overwhelming consensus of Greek scholars so readily. But whether you or the modern translators are correct, the verse is not saying what our friend is suggesting it says.

ARBITER01 · Dec 13, 2018

LoveofTruth, Brother you have a lot of good biblical teaching in you, and I hope GOD furthers you in this!

Do understand your circumstances here in this particular forum though. The activity here is no different than a few years back with Word of Faith adherents. There were segments of them who built all these Pharisaical fence laws for the NT, exactly like these guys have done here, where they refused to hear anything from GOD unless they divined it from His written word. As ridiculous as it is, you just gotta let The Holy Spirit deal with them and move on. It's only detrimental to them, not us.

I pray that GOD blesses you mightily in your endeavors with Him!

ewq1938 · Dec 13, 2018

Sola Scriptura:

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

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