The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

LoveofTruth · Dec 27, 2018

swordsman1 said:
Indeed. God told Cornelius that it was the gospel message that would save him and his household.

Acts 11:14 "and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."

I believe Corneilus was saved before he met Peter. But he needed to be complete, made whole (saved) by hearing about Jesus Christ and the baptism with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is only given through the name of Jesus Christ and knowledge of Him as I understand.

Peter had a revelation of God reaching the Gentiles he said,

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."(Acts 10:34,35 KJV)

Cornelius also had the evidence of faith and life in God

"2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway...4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God...22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews,"

God does not hear the prayers of sinners. He was a man that feared God and worked righteousness,and to do such is to be born again as 1 John 2 says

"29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."(1 John 2:29 KJV)

Speaking of Cornelius in figure and the gentiles in general we also read that God implied that he was clean already

"15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

LoveofTruth · Dec 27, 2018

swordsman1 said:
The lexicons I have consulted only say κηρυσσοντος is a verb.

I agree it doesn't really change the meaning. Apart from when people try to make out it is referring to a 'divine preacher' (singular). My point was that the KJV is not a perfect translation.

I could easily say God "preaches" or is the "preacher" the meaning would be the same. I can also say he speaks, and witnesses in the hearts and shines upon all.

I was not even referring to the word "preacher" there specifically. Paul was asking a question? not making a statement specifically. He answered his question twice in vs 18 and 19 to different people.

LoveofTruth · Dec 27, 2018

swordsman1 said:
None of those verses say we are to sit in silence until we feel an 'Inner Light' teaching us.

They all do in fact

Isaiah 40:31, 41:1 KJV
But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment."

1 Corinthians 14:28-31 KJV)
"28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."

Romans 12:3-7 KJV
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:"(Romans 12;3-7 KJV)

John 4:23
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

1 Peter 4:7
"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."

John 16:13
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."(Spoken to believers not just for apostles 1 Corintians 2 and 1 John 2:27 KJV)

Ecclesiastes 5
"Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?
7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God."

and

Proverbs 16:1
The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord."

Proverbs 16:3
Commit thy works unto the Lord, and thy thoughts shall be established.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 28, 2018

swordsman1 said:
It is still a verb. To be a herald. Not, a herald.

That is not proper grammar. To be is an adjective and herald is a noun.
A person can say, I want to be a fireman.
Fireman is a noun and not a verb.
To be is an adjective.

You can check these sources in the dictionary for yourself.

To be Dictionary source:
Definition of TO-BE

Herald Dictionary Source:
Definition of HERALD

Herald = Messenger.
A messenger describes what that person is doing.
Their actions determine what they are called.
Just as a fireman is a man who fights fires.
His actions determines what he is called.
So you cannot escape the whole noun thing.

Also, looking at the context, we see "preacher" fits the best in verse 14 because it points to the object noun of a person who is no doubt a preacher in verse 15 three times!

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
(Romans 10:14-15).

Verse 14 - Preacher.
Verse 15 - They (preach),
Verse 15 - They (be sent),
Verse 15, - Them that preach the gospel of peace.

They, they, and them that preach (in verse 15) is pointing or referencing the "Preacher" in verse 14. So the context supports the word "preacher."

Bible Highlighter · Dec 28, 2018

swordsman1 said:
The lexicons I have consulted only say κηρυσσοντος is a verb.

I agree it doesn't really change the meaning. Apart from when people try to make out it is referring to a 'divine preacher' (singular). My point was that the KJV is not a perfect translation.

I agree that it is not talking about a divine preacher in the sense that he is receiving special new revelations. The context is clearly talking about the gospel. However, I disagree with your statement that KJV is not a perfect translation. I can prove otherwise. Some may say you cannot prove the Bible. I disagree. I can prove the Bible is true and divine in origin. All I need is time and a person's careful attention.

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I believe they hear the gospel hope in their hearts and God is able to save them through the work of Jesus Christ done in the future. They will be judged according to the gospel.

What do you mean the unevangelized can "hear the gospel hope in their hearts" and so be saved? Does God tell a tribesman about Jesus by telepathy? Or are they are just hoping in their hearts for an afterlife, and that sufficient save them?

If people are saved without hearing the gospel, then why send missionaries? It would be better if the missionaries stayed at home because if they reject the gospel they will surely be condemned.

No, Scripture tells us we can only be born again by hearing the gospel:

1 Peter 1:23-25 "Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.....And this word is the good news that was preached to you."

LoveofTruth said:
Similarily as he saved all those in Hebrews 11 who were before any scripture of before Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

All those mentioned in Heb 11 were saved because they believed what God had told them. They walked and talked with God. God spoke to them, and they believed Him. And their faith was accounted for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

God does not speak with tribesmen as he did with Abraham. In any case that was a different dispensation, so you cannot say people today are saved in the same manner before scripture was written. The preaching of the gospel is now the prescribed way of salvation.

Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Rom 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Notice they have to call on THE NAME of Jesus. People who have never heard about Jesus cannot be saved.

LoveofTruth said:
But as far as the gentile nations who had no scriptures and no outward history of Jesus Christ preached to them in their outward ears. God has not left himself with out witness and has borne witness to the hearts of men by the true Light which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.

Lighteth does not mean saveth.

Jesus is the indeed the Light of the world and, like the Sun, the True Light shines on (not in) everyone, exposing their sin. But not everyone likes the Light and most prefer darkness.

John 3:19-20 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

John is certainly not talking about extra-biblical revelations or an 'Inner Light' guiding us via fuzzy feelings as you think. That is Quakerism.

LoveofTruth said:
God is not only the God of the Jew but of the Gentiles also, and he has always been. Both can come into the fellowship of the mystery that has been hid from ages and from generations. This mystery of Christ in you was there but hid in the hearts. Hid also in hid in the types and shadows of the OT. In some respect the mystery of Christ was hid in his physical body as well. Some could only see a man walking and doing works. Other saw who he was in spirit by revelation of the Father. So he was in some was even hid from many in the flesh.

"Christ in you" is the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, dwelling in you as scripture plainly shows. And the Holy Spirit only dwells in people who have been born again.

LoveofTruth said:
But we definitely read of salvation in the old testament in many places and of them being born again as I have shown.

Here are just a few verses that trouble your doctrine and expose the clear error of it. You may need to rush to your few teachers from commentaries to try and answer away these verses. But that is not going to change the truth I share here. It doesn't matter how many don't see this mystery. It is still there according to scripture.

Consider,

Isaiah 45:20-22 KJV
"20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."

None of those verses conflict with my doctrine. I have never said OT saints were not saved.

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I already showed you men from the past that have seen it. I quoted just a sample of them.

But all I need is Paul who spoke this mystery and John and Peter and certainly Jesus.

You haven't shown us a single commentary on Romans 10 that agrees with your interpretation of it.

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Romans 10

"10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

Here Paul is referring to Israel and his hope for them.

"2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

He speaks of their religious fever and zeal, but they do not have that knowledge of God. This knowledge he touches on which is an inward knowledge and revelation. Jesus also said to them they did not Know the scriptures nor the power of God. They were outwardly beautiful like a seplcure but inwardly full of dead men's bones. They did not have the word of God abiding in them. They were inwardly ravening and the light that was in them was darkness.

"3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

The did not know God's righteousness. The righteousness of God was witnessed in the law and the prophets and revealed in Jesus Christ and the gospel. For men to come to know God's righteousness and the free gift of righteousness and to be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, they need to have a heart change and inward reality.

Jesus spoke of this as well when he said

Matthew 5:6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Notice the part “they shall be filled”. This refers to the inward life and work of God in men.

The law for righteousness or men trying to follow the law of Moses was as Paul said the letter that kills (2 Cor 3) but the Spirit gives life. Paul said that they are not Jews outwardly but inwardly and the true circumcision is of the heart and in the spirit, not in the flesh. They went about to establish their own self righteousness before God, by their works of the law. But they can do nothing without Christ and no works can merit grace or put God in their debt. The true righteousness is of faith and an inward reality which they missed.

"4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Christ dwells in the heart by faith. This is where God works and searches and empowers believers. No outward works of the law can do this. We are no longer under the law, or as a Jew they would no longer be under the Mosaic law.

"5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."

If any man could keep the law spotless they would live in those things. But all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and no man is justified by the works of the law. But they were under the law and it was given because of transgressions. For by the law is the knowledge of sin. The Jews did not come by faith but stumbled at Christ.

"6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above"

Now Paul touches on the spiritual aspect. This is the way God reaches both Jew and Gentile as he spoke of earlier in previous chapters. The quote Paul gives here is from Deuteronomy 30. Paul reminds them of the law that they thought they could try to keep to be righteous. But when he quotes Deuteronomy 30, he is showing a mystery, Yes God gave the law and the commandments at the mountain to them, but God showed them that the commandment was not hidden from them. Even before they had the tables of stone, God was at work in them by His word or seed sown in their heart. This is the spiritual aspect that they missed. Paul is bold here and says in referring to the words in Deuteronomy 30, that it was really speaking of Christ in them. He says, "that is, to bring Christ down from above:".

If you pause here and really look at what Paul is showing them, you can see that to mention Christ in connection to the OT passage where God says that the commandment is not hid from them, it is not afar off etc, is saying that they should have heard in their hearts. This is where God's voice speaks. And as the true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world, God works in them and speaks, this is his word that is night unto them, or close to them. This was touched on a bit in Romans 2:14,15, where Paul spoke of how the Gentles can be justified with God and how God will judge the secrets of men. These secrets are again spoken of here when Paul speaks of the commandment not being hidden even before it was given in stone. This law that was working in them is none other than "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" this is the life and inward witness.

Paul is trying to show that God has already witnesses, or preached in the heats of all. They should have been able to know God inwardly. And if this was the case, then why was the law added? Paul mentions this in another place and says the law was added because of transgressions. They ignored the witness inwardly and did not come to the light. This they did because their deeds were evil. So God wrote it in stone, to expose sin and like a schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ. But Christ is not far from every one of them.

"7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)"

Paul reinforces his point by quoting more from Deuteronomy 30. Remember God said that the commandment was not hidden from them, or afar off but nigh unto them in their heart and mouths. Notice again Paul speaks of Christ in connection to the true meaning of Deuteronomy. In Deuteronomy we do not see the word Christ but instead we see the word "it". But if we put the interpretation that Paul put in there we see the mystery and begin to understand the depth of this chapter. It is marvelous and a spiritual truth.

"10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."(Deuteronomy 30:10)

Now lets see it with Paul's revelation and as he said it really means,

"10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, Christ is not hidden from thee, neither is Christ far off.
12 Christ is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring Christ unto us, that we may hear Christ, and do Christ?
13 Neither is Christ beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring Christ unto us, that we may hear Christ, and do Christ?
14 But the word of Christ is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do Christ."(Deuteronomy 30:10)

Jesus said I in you and you in me...without me ye can do nothing. And to Abrahama and His seed we read that the seed is Christ (Gal 3).

"8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"

Now Paul continues from Deuteronomy again showing where the word is. It is close to you, or "nigh" unto thee, in thy heart and in thy mouth. This word that is inward and gives life is the word of Christ in them. This is the same word OF faith that flows from them. The word of God came out from the believers and preachers and this word is the same as the Old Testament saints had as well. The context of this entire chapter shows these things.

"9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Now he addresses his audience, both Jew and Gentile and shows again what he has been talking about in relation to the HEART. This is where man believes , inwardly in the spirit. He that is born of the spirit is a child of God. Born again by the engrafted word, that is able to save the soul (James 1). The word of truth, the incorruptible seed which is the word of God.The word of God is quick (alive and powerful).

Paul also connects this truth with the history of the gospel and Jesus Christ resurrection. Paul had already spoke of the connection of the gospel he preached to the “secrets of men” and the work of the law written in the hearts of the Gentiles in Romans (2:14,15 KJV). He does it here as well.

"10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Now he addresses a more broad spectrum of people and that God can reach all men. He does not say "thou" here, but "man" in general.

"11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Again, this broad spectrum of God's salvation is mentioned. He alluded to it by quoting Deuteronomy 30 and showed that God is not far from every one of us, nigh unto them and to all. He already spoke of the Gentiles as well and that God has spoken to all by nature (or the natural way God deals with all men Rom 2:14,25 KJV). Through the work of the law written in their hearts. This work of the law written would be similar to the Jews as well as the Gentiles. The inward reality if for all men, no difference. The true Light still lighteh every man that cometh into the world ( John 1:9) This every man would include all men from Adam until today.

Paul says that the same Lord (for both Jews and Gentiles) is rich unto ALL that call upon him,. This "ALL" here covers all men of the entire world of all time, both Jew and Gentile. As Paul says. This shows the broad reach of God the divine preacher who has witnessed or preached in their hearts by Christ the word. This is not specifically the history of Jesus life in the flesh and death and resurrection that God has preached but the hope of the gospel and God's righteousness which is seen in the gospel.

When men are convicted and reproved by the light at first they will come to see their sin and unrighteousness, if they are humbled and a broken spirit and contrite heart and cry unto the Lord they are in effect seeking God's righteousness and provision for their sin and salvation. God responds to such a heart (Psalm 51 etc). They are in fact seeking Jesus Christ as their saviour they just don't know him yet in the flesh or his coming. God can call those things that are not as though they were and work in the heart that receives his word (Christ) through faith (Hebrews 12 etc). Christ dwells in the heart by faith. This is how God can give them life but only through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross in time (Romans 5 etc)

"13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Paul had already shown that the "whosoever" includes Jews and Gentiles. And this extends to the past as well as the future here, for Paul referred to the OT words in Deuteronomy as well. We can say with Paul here that even if a Gentile was in the most remote parts of the world that God has placed him there that he can seek the Lord and feel after him (inwardly in his heart) and find him, For as Paul said this in Acts 17, he also said in this chapter that the word is night unto them, close to them all. This is Christ witnessing in them.

"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Now Paul assumes there natural questions from his words. If Paul said that all can call upon the Lord and be saved both Jews and Gentiles and that there is no difference and that Gods word is close to them all. Then some might ask "How can this be?" Notice again, the QUESTIONS asked. Many people seem to ignore the questions ask and act as though Paul is simply making a statement. Instead of Paul saying, "How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?" They would word it "they cannot call n him in whom they have not believed!" ignoring the question mark.

If men do not hear about Jesus Christ or have a preacher to preach to them or heard any other way. How can this be? This is the question. Paul is not dealing specifically that God uses preachers to preach the gospel. Even though God as the divine preacher who has witnessed to all preaches through preachers, scripture, creation and other gifts. This is not the main point here. He is speaking of God working close to all in their heart by Christ, as he already spoke of. It is similar to Deiuteronomy when God gave them the law but said they already had it close to them. It was not hidden. Paul does a similar thing in this chapter. But first he poses the questions and answers them.

"15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

Again, Paul shows the extent of the word of faith working in the hearts of men and how God has preached through them to all. This is God who sends them, not themselves. So again unless God works in them to will and to do they can do nothing either,Paul could be bringing this aspect in here to show that even a preacher has to hear inwardly the word. Paul said the word that is nigh to all is the same word of faith that he preached in vs 8.

continued....

You have already given us your erroneous understanding of Romans 10, and I have pointed out your mistakes. But that's not what I asked for. I asked if there were any respected theologians who agreed with your interpretation. Clearly there are none.

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I believe Corneilus was saved before he met Peter. But he needed to be complete, made whole (saved) by hearing about Jesus Christ and the baptism with the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is only given through the name of Jesus Christ and knowledge of Him as I understand.

Scripture clearly proves you wrong.

Acts 11:14 (KJV) "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."

Saved means saved here, not 'made whole'. Or has the KJV, and all other versions, translated the word wrongly? It plainly says Cornelius would not be saved until Peter spoke the gospel to him. Nobody in this dispensation can be saved without hearing the gospel.

Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

LoveofTruth said:
Peter had a revelation of God reaching the Gentiles he said,

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."(Acts 10:34,35 KJV)

Being acceptable to God does not mean saved. Peter is saying that Gentiles who seek God were now admissible into the Kingdom. Not that they were yet Christians. Fearing God and performing good works, without hearing about Christ, does not make someone a Christian.

LoveofTruth said:
God does not hear the prayers of sinners. He was a man that feared God and worked righteousness,and to do such is to be born again as 1 John 2 says

"29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."(1 John 2:29 KJV)

No, simply doing good deeds does not make you a born again Christian. Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses do good works, are they born again? Many non-Christians do good works, are they born again? You are completely twisting 1 John 2:29. It says "you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." It is speaking of how to recognize born again believers. Good works are a characteristic of believers, not what makes them believers. Scripture makes it absolutely clear that good works are useless to save:

Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works"

Galatians 2:16 "know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[a] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."

Philippians 3:9 "and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

Romans 4:5 "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; "

Isaiah 64:5-6 "How then can we be saved? All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;"

We can only be born again by hearing and believing the gospel:

1 Peter 1:23-25 "Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.....And this word is the good news that was preached to you."

Rom 10:13-17: For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?...So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

LoveofTruth said:
Speaking of Cornelius in figure and the gentiles in general we also read that God implied that he was clean already

"15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

No, you are twisting scripture yet again. In Peter's vision, God does not say that Cornelius and the Gentiles have now been made clean, by which you mean clean from sin, ie saved. Here is the verse in context:

Acts 10:12-15 "In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”

The cleansing was to do with the prohibited food in the vision - removing the distinction between clean and unclean animals in Jewish Law. All the food in sheet was declared ok to eat. It was symbolic of removing the distinction that existed between Jews and Gentiles. It doesn't say the Gentiles were now cleansed of sin. Nobody is cleansed from their sin until they trust in Christ and are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

1 John 1:7 "and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"

1 Peter 1:18-22 "you were not redeemed with corruptible things....But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot..... Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth"

YeshuaFan · Dec 31, 2018

swordsman1 said:
Scripture clearly proves you wrong.

Acts 11:14 (KJV) "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."

Saved means saved here, not 'made whole'. Or has the KJV, and all other versions, translated the word wrongly? It plainly says Cornelius would not be saved until Peter spoke the gospel to him. Nobody in this dispensation can be saved without hearing the gospel.

Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Being acceptable to God does not mean saved. Peter is saying that Gentiles who seek God were now admissible into the Kingdom. Not that they were yet Christians. Fearing God and performing good works, without hearing about Christ, does not make someone a Christian.

No, simply doing good deeds does not make you a born again Christian. Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses do good works, are they born again? Many non-Christians do good works, are they born again? You are completely twisting 1 John 2:29. It says "you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him." It is speaking of how to recognize born again believers. Good works are a characteristic of believers, not what makes them believers. Scripture makes it absolutely clear that good works are useless to save:

Eph 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works"

Galatians 2:16 "know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[a] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."

Philippians 3:9 "and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith."

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

Romans 4:5 "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; "

Isaiah 64:5-6 "How then can we be saved? All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;"

We can only be born again by hearing the gospel:

1 Peter 1:23-25 "Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.....And this word is the good news that was preached to you."

Rom 10:13-17: For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?...So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

No, you are twisting scripture yet again. In Peter's vision, God does not say that Cornelius and the Gentiles have now been made clean, by which you mean clean from sin, ie saved. Here is the verse in context:

Acts 10:12-15 "In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”

The cleansing was to do with the prohibited food in the vision - removing the distinction between clean and unclean animals in Jewish Law. All the food in sheet was declared ok to eat. It was symbolic of removing the distinction that existed between Jews and Gentiles. It doesn't say the Gentiles were now cleansed of sin. Nobody is cleansed from their sin until they trust in Christ and are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

1 John 1:7 "and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin"

1 Peter 1:18-22 "you were not redeemed with corruptible things....But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot..... Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth"

Cornelius was saved when he heard the Gospel preached to him by peter, and the Holy Spirit enabled him and the others who were saved there to speak in tongues, in order to confirm to the Jews that God really had saved the gentiles by faith in Messiah Jesus, just as he had Jews!
The tongues were just for that special event and time...

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
Paul was asking a question? not making a statement specifically. He answered his question twice in vs 18 and 19 to different people.

You are wrong. Paul was asking a series of rhetorical questions about the people "who call on the name of the Lord" in the previous verse. eg "how can they call on him in whom they have not believed?". The answer to each one of course is they can't. Paul's point is nobody can be saved without hearing the gospel being preached, as verse 17 confirms "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.".

In verse 18 Paul asks if the people in v16 had actually heard the gospel. 'Yes they had', Paul says, 'the gospel had gone out all over the world'.

And all commentators agree with me. None agree with you.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 31, 2018

Elaborate on "those outside, God judges"
along with Romans 2
Those without TORAH, who do what is right, are justified...
(just a short excerpt)

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
They all do in fact

Isaiah 40:31, 41:1 KJV
But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment."

1 Corinthians 14:28-31 KJV)
"28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."

Romans 12:3-7 KJV
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:"(Romans 12;3-7 KJV)

John 4:23
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

1 Peter 4:7
"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."

John 16:13
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."(Spoken to believers not just for apostles 1 Corintians 2 and 1 John 2:27 KJV)

Ecclesiastes 5
"Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?
7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God."

and

Proverbs 16:1
The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord."

Proverbs 16:3
Commit thy works unto the Lord, and thy thoughts shall be established.

No they don't. Not one of those passages is referring to waiting in silence until an 'Inner Light' is felt. Eg. 1 Cor 14:28-31 is referring to tongues speakers being silent if an interpreter is not present. Nothing whatsoever about waiting for a feeling.

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
That is not proper grammar. To be is an adjective and herald is a noun.
A person can say, I want to be a fireman.
Fireman is a noun and not a verb.
To be is an adjective.

You can check these sources in the dictionary for yourself.

To be Dictionary source:
Definition of TO-BE

Herald Dictionary Source:
Definition of HERALD

Herald = Messenger.
A messenger describes what that person is doing.
Their actions determine what they are called.
Just as a fireman is a man who fights fires.
His actions determines what he is called.
So you cannot escape the whole noun thing.

Also, looking at the context, we see "preacher" fits the best in verse 14 because it points to the object noun of a person who is no doubt a preacher in verse 15 three times!

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
(Romans 10:14-15).

Verse 14 - Preacher.
Verse 15 - They (preach),
Verse 15 - They (be sent),
Verse 15, - Them that preach the gospel of peace.

They, they, and them that preach (in verse 15) is pointing or referencing the "Preacher" in verse 14. So the context supports the word "preacher."

Those are not my words, they are the words of the lexicon you quoted. "To be a herald" is the act of being a herald (ie. a verb).

It further clarifies the meaning:

"to proclaim after the manner of a herald"
"to publish, proclaim openly"

The source link you provided explicitly says the word is a verb, not a noun.

If Paul had meant 'preacher' he would have used the noun version of the word - kērux.

Strong's Concordance
kérux: a herald
Original Word: κῆρυξ, υκος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kérux
Phonetic Spelling: (kay'-roox)
Definition: a herald
Usage: a herald, preacher, proclaimer.

So the KJV has wrongly translated the verb as a noun in "how shall they hear without a preacher?". Giving the impression that the noun "preacher" is in the original Greek. It may not make much difference to the meaning of the verse, but it allows someone to latch onto the word and twist it's meaning into something else which would not otherwise happen if it was correctly translated 'preaching' as other versions do.

swordsman1 · Dec 31, 2018

Jason0047 said:
However, I disagree with your statement that KJV is not a perfect translation. I can prove otherwise. Some may say you cannot prove the Bible. I disagree. I can prove the Bible is true and divine in origin. All I need is time and a person's careful attention.

Maybe another time. I am not particularly anti KJV and have no intention of getting embroiled in the KJV Only dispute. I think for the time is was a very good translation given the resources the translators had available. And it served the English speaking church well for 300 years

But apart from the outdated and often confusing Olde English language, the discovery of earlier manuscripts and advances in Koine Greek scholarship mean that other reputable translations such as the NASB and ESV are better. I certainly do not believe they are corrupt or the work of the devil.

LoveofTruth · Dec 31, 2018

swordsman1 said:
No they don't. Not one of those passages is referring to waiting in silence until an 'Inner Light' is felt. Eg. 1 Cor 14:28-31 is referring to tongues speakers being silent if an interpreter is not present. Nothing whatsoever about waiting for a feeling.

Every verse I gave speaks of waiting and watching and having revelation from the Lord for guidance , ministry, teaching, exhortation, speech and prayer. I do not use the words you use. You try to create your own words for me when you say,

"Not one of those passages is referring to waiting in silence until an 'Inner Light' is felt"

or

"Nothing whatsoever about waiting for a feeling."

I don't use those words.

I would say they wait on the Lord who works in all believers to make them perfect unto every good work and every utterance in the Spirit. I would say that we do not walk by feelings outside of faith. We can feel after the Lord in a spiritual sense and find him inwardly (Acts 17). In the sense of hearing his voice and seeing things that are not seen. We have spiritual senses that are exercised
But these senses are not carnal or fleshly.

Here are a few scriptures for what I just said

"20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."(Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV)

"4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."(John 15:4,5 KJV)

2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil"

Acts 17:27
"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

Without Jesus in us speaking and working and without the Father in us working and without the Holy Ghost in us working and leading, how can any know anything from God? The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit neither can he know them, they are spiritually discerned.

I wonder if some today run from anything spiritual. They seem to try and explain away the miraculous in logical terms, and act as if anything that is a mystery or spiritual is somehow wrong. I wonder what they are claiming to use to understand scripture? is it their natural mind and human wisdom, in books and colleges and Hebrew and Greek? Do they assume to know the things of God by only reading books and using mans wisdom and intellect with, scientific reasoning so called?.

We are to seek the Lord for all things and gifts and to wait upon him to lead. This is done in silence as we seek him and wait. If we are simply talking away in a gathering and not seeking the Lord or letting the peace of God rule in us and the Word of Christ dwell in us richly how can we edify each other. Only when Jesus Christ is in believers can they effectual edify one another as scripture clearly says. This does not leave room for mans carnal speaking and natural wisdom and talk in his flesh.

Ephesians 4:15,16
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:. 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

To speak with tongues is as any sit in silence and wait to have the Lord give such a gift and utterance. To prophesy is to also sit in silence or "hold their peace", until the Lord guides and gives a revelation or anything that is needed for mutual edification exhortation and comfort. The teachers may already have had a revelation in the word and from the Spirit and they can share this in a different sense than the prophecy because they already have the knowledge. But they also are to WAIT on their teaching (Romans 12:7 KJV). And I used this section as my proof as well which you did not seem to even try to comment on. You just give your general words "No, they don't". Each verse needs to be considered and commented on.

also all utterance in the body is to be sought after as Paul commended them for doing so and directed them to do so. This utterance is by the grace of God and as He leads. This is far different from many today who rush ahead in their man made programs and forms who do not even seek to be led by the Spirit and to wait for the gifts and leading of God or to have Jesus Christ work in them effectual in all things and all ministry , teaching, evangelism etc.

Here are some speaking and utterance verses to consider. These "utterances" are by the Spirit as the context shows. He is not simply speaking of them talking in their natural man. God has to open the door of utterance and give such a ability. Which Paul and all believers are to seek. These "utterances" can be in many ways, in tongues, prophecy, revelation, doctrine, teaching, exhortation, comfort, prayer wisdom, knowledge, etc.

I marvel that these basic christian principles are not known by some. It is troubling.

Romans 12:3-7 KJV
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me"

Acts 2:4
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

1 Corinthians 1:5
"That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;"

2 Corinthians 8:7
"Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also."

Ephesians 6:19
"And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,"

Colossians 4:3
"Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Ephesians 3:7
"Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

LoveofTruth · Dec 31, 2018

swordsman1 said:
No they don't. Not one of those passages is referring to waiting in silence until an 'Inner Light' is felt. Eg. 1 Cor 14:28-31 is referring to tongues speakers being silent if an interpreter is not present. Nothing whatsoever about waiting for a feeling.

As far as your mockery and shunning of the Light of Christ as a "feeling".

Jesus Paul John, and all true ministers are ministers of the light of Christ.

Consider

John 1:9
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Acts 26:18
"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Matthew 6:23
"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"

Ephesians 5:13
"But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light"

Ephesians 5:8
"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

2 Corinthians 4:4, 6, 7
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them...6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

Matthew 5:16
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

Psalm 89:15
"Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance."

1 John 1:7
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

John 11:10
"But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him."

John 8:12
"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

John 12:36
"While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them."

LoveofTruth · Dec 31, 2018

swordsman1 said:
You are wrong. Paul was asking a series of rhetorical questions about the people "who call on the name of the Lord" in the previous verse. eg "how can they call on him in whom they have not believed?". The answer to each one of course is they can't. Paul's point is nobody can be saved without hearing the gospel being preached, as verse 17 confirms "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.".

In verse 18 Paul asks if the people in v16 had actually heard the gospel. 'Yes they had', Paul says, 'the gospel had gone out all over the world'.

No, if you read the context he had just spoken of Christ speaking in the OT saints and the word of Christ is near them (Compare Deuteronomy 30 and no, you did not deal with that section at all, your interpretation was faulty), that is the same word of faith that he preached. The same as the OT Saints had and they had. Then he speaks of anyone calling on the name of the Lord and no matter who they were Jew or Gentile. The natural questions would be how can they hear without a preacher? or whom they have not believed ? etc. Paul answer those questions in two verses as I showed you he says very clearly I (to the unbiased reader). He also quotes in vs 18 Psalms 19. This is a very telling verse and shows the divine preacher has already spoken through all creation and the word, or line, and speech has gone through all the world. In fact all things are up[held by the word of His power and nothing is hid from the heat thereof. So if the word is close to all then God is able to reach all no matter where they are. I will quote Psalm 19 and select certain words for the ones who consider these things in the spirit.

"18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."

"1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

This clearly shows that when Paul brought this section into Romans 10 he was also showing God as the divine preacher or that God had given witness already and is everywhere and His word is everywhere. This Psalm speaks of declaration and shewing knowledge uttering speech.

swordsman1 said:
And all commentators agree with me. None agree with you.

This is a childish rant here.You have not met or talked with or even read all commentators on the earth. The word "all" is silly. But your argument I can almost here as used by some of the Catholics against the few reformers. They might have felt they had strength in numbers and so they MUST be right. The logic is faulty. They could have said to the reformers, Wycliff, Huss, Luther "All the Catholic commentators agree with me and none agree with you so you must be wrong". This is not a wise way to look at things.

The majority is often wrong. Jesus was in the minority. I can almost here the pharisees saying similar to Jesus. Paul was in the minority and all seemed to reject him at times.

LoveofTruth · Dec 31, 2018

So many errors in this post I don't know where to begin. I guess just start with every one of your words from the beginning.

swordsman1 said:
Acts 11:14 (KJV) "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."

Saved means saved here, not 'made whole'.

"from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole"

Cornelius was similar to the OT "saints" before he met Peter. He needed to hear the gospel and the name of Jesus to receive the fulness and the Holy Ghost is given only through the name of Jesus Christ. This is part of his walk and salvation, to be complete and made whole, to be empowered for the walk. But he was already a man of faith before he met Peter.

Romans 15:29
"And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ."

Ephesians 3:19
"And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

Ephesians 4:13
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"

swordsman1 said:
It plainly says Cornelius would not be saved until Peter spoke the gospel to him. Nobody in this dispensation can be saved without hearing the gospel.

Where does it say that?

To be saved is through Jesus Christ who died for the sin of the world and was burried and rose again. This is the salvation. But even the OT saints were saved having not seen Jesus Christ yet, or the salvation Jesus Brought. This is the point. God can save men even before Jesus Christ came, though not without his work for them in time. They in the OT looked forward to the work of God's righteousness being revealed in Jesus Christ and His work, we look back at that finished work. Salvation has always been the same by grace through faith. Even in the OT . If a person is saved they will show forth that life and work of God in their life and work righteousness. God works in them. So John says whoever worketh righteousness is born of him. This also Peter says when he says ,

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."(Acts 10:34,35 KJV)

Psalm 40:10
"I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation."

But here are some verses about salvation before the cross , clear to the unbiased reader).

Psalm 27:1 KJV
"The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?"

Luke 19:9
"And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

Psalm 51:10-12 KJV
"10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."

Psalm 37:39
But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

Psalm 74:12
"For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth."

Also we read of believers (before the cross) confessing Jesus Christ as the Christ the Son of God. According to scripture this evidences that they were born again ( 1 John 4:14, 1 John 5:1 KJV). This mean they were saved. But the salvation had to come in fulness through the work of Christ on the cross. Yet God was able to give all men the free gift that came upon all through the work of Jesus Christ. This free gift is Christ, the seed, the word sown, light sown, the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;.Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." (Romans 1:19 KJV).

swordsman1 said:
Being acceptable to God does not mean saved

yet scripture corrects you.No one is accepted outside the beloved,

Ephesians 1:6
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

and all we need are Peters words of revelation about Cornelius and others like him, when Peter said

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with [notice the word "with" here, no man is "with" God unless they are in Christ] him."

The word "accepted" means "approved". God does not hear the prayers of those who are in darkness and have them as a memorial, yet Cornelius's prayers went up to God as a memorial. So he must have had his sins cleansed as OT saints did through faith in God's righeousness and provision.

"18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: 19 But verily God hath heard me; he hath attended to the voice of my prayer. 20 Blessed be God, which hath not turned away my prayer, nor his mercy from me."(Psalm 66:18-20 KJV)

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."(Isaiah 59:2) "31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."(John 9:31 KJV)

Notice here that God does not "accept" those who are still in sin and rebellion nor hear them. The word "accept" here also means "approve, pardon, be pleased with.

"10 Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. 11 Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. 12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them"(Isaiah 14:10-12 KJV)

LoveofTruth · Dec 31, 2018

swordsman1 said:
"Peter is saying that Gentiles who seek God were now admissible into the Kingdom. Not that they were yet Christians.

While the Gentiles were able to come into the outward New Covenat as Gods people. God had always worked with gentiles, This is part of the mystery that was and not made know that the gentiles are of the same body and they have always been. God is now revealing this through the work of Christ and his dealings with Israel.

I never said Cornelius was a "christian" before he met Peter. I said he was saved a child of God. The name "Christian" is connected to those who know about Jesus Christ and the work he did. Abraham was saved by grace through faith and mentioned with others in the faith chapter of Hebrews 11 and he did not know Jesus Christ in the flesh yet or see the finished work yet. He could not be called a "christian" in that sense. Though he was saved and had the seed of Christ in him and was a child of God as scripture clearly shows to the unbiased reader.

swordsman1 said:
Fearing God and performing good works, without hearing about Christ, does not make someone a Christian..

First a person hears Gods voice and has the witness in himself. This is the word or seed sown, where Christ speaks to the heart.If they received him in their heart,after the light convicted them first and their fallow ground of their heart was broken up , this is done by the word of God that breaketh the rocks in pieces. Then they sow to themselves in righteousness as the seed is planted in their hearts and risen in them. This is where they are spiritually crucified with Christ burried with him and risen with him inwardly. This is the power and hope of the gospel that is risen within them. This is the faith as the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Christ works in men in this mystery. When Christ is in a person they are a new creation and will show forth the works of that life in righteousness.

We see this fear of God and working righteousness in scripture also. When men seek the righteousness of God they are filled as Jesus said and then it is God that works in them as they walk in that righteousness and work righteousness in Christ. So yes, John and peter are correct when they say that whosoever fears God and works righteousness is born of God. No man can work (true) righteousness unless they are saved.

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

Isaiah 64:5
Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

Psalm 15:2
He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart."

Proverbs 11:18
The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.

Psalm 97:11
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart."

Psalm 40:10

I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation."

2 Corinthians 9:10
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

This free gift came upon all men unto the justification of life. I believe all OT saints and Cornelius were in this justification and life in Christ

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."(Romans 5:18 KJV)

"9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."(John 1:9 KJV)

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,..."(Titus 2:11 KJV)

Just as from Adam condemnation came upon ALL, so also through the work of Christ the FREE GIFT came upon all men. It was through Christ work on the cross in time that God foresaw and so he could give this free gift , this treasure in earthen vessels, the seed, word, true Light to all men and be near them all,calling them all. He did not leave Himself without witness, but filled our hearts with food and gladness.

swordsman1 said:
No, simply doing good deeds does not make you a born again Christian.

This was not what Peter was saying. He recognized by revelation that all men everywhere can find the Lord and be accepted with him. The evidence that they had found the Lord was that they FEARED God and worked righteousness. No unbeliever fears God or works (true) righteousness. The righteounsess all believers work is the righteousness of God from Him as we are made the righteousness of God through faith. Abraham worked a similar righteousness as he had God working in him to will and to do.

And Peter said these words before he even spoke a word about Jesus Christ and the gospel. Peter simply heard the testimony from Cornelius about God hearing his prayer as a memorial and the witness of the angel etc. Then he said this

"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Consider all your words here again.

When Peter said that "God is no respecter of persons...in "every nation. This is similar to what Paul said to the men on Athens

"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"(Acts 17:26,27 KJV)

There is no way to deny this truth Paul spoke here. This shows that God is close to all they can feel after him and find him and save all if they find him. This by no means denies the preaching of the gospel, for the gospel is the finished work of their salvation and the means by which any can be saved.

You said

“You are completely twisting 1 John 2:29. It says "you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him."

My response:

Yes it says just that.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."(1 John 2:29 KJV)

But this is only known by those know he is righteous and who are in the faith. For no man can works the righteousness of God in truth unless they are saved. Just as no man can say Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Ghost. Now, some might say that any unbeliever can say Jesus Christ is Lord. But they cannot say this in truth unless they are speaking by the Spirit. Many shall say "Lord Lord" one day and not have the reality. Similarily many may try to claim to be righteous an work righteousness but in fact they are not in the righteousness of God and by works they deny him and unto every good work reprobate.

John says similar words in the same book. he says

"7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous..10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

This verse also rebukes many today who say they are in faith and born again yet live like the devil. They are deceived as John shows here.

swordsman1 said:
Scripture makes it absolutely clear that good works are useless to save:

I am not speaking of mans self righteous works in the flesh. But of Gods works.

Can any say that God's works are not needful to save through His work in Jesus Christ on the cross and His work in those who believe?

"12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."(Philippians 2:12,13 KJV)

"20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."(Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV)

The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

Christ builds His church from within us

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