The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[swordsman1]

Peter Pett (2013)

Verse 14-15

‘How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? And how will they preach, unless they are sent? Even as it is written, “How beautiful (or ‘timely’) are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!” ’

All, both Jew and Greek, are being offered salvation through faith (Romans 10:10-13). But the question now arises as to how this message of salvation through the Messiah is to go out into the world. How is it to reach them? For in order for men to believe, they must first hear. And for that to happen there must preachers. And for there to be preachers there must be those who are sent. There was, however, no problem with regard to this for the Scriptures had made clear that there would be those who were sent, that is, those who would bring to men the glad tidings of good things. That this refers to a ‘hearing’ by both Jews and Gentile is apparent from the link with ‘whoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved’, and with the fact that there is no distinction between Jew and Greek with respect to it (Romans 10:14-15).

‘How shall they preach except they be sent (apostalowsin).’ Paul no doubt has primarily in mind the sending out by Christ of the Apostles (those who have been sent forth), including himself and his lieutenants. These are the ones through whom the true message of the Messiah has been proclaimed.

But it also, of course, includes all who take out the Apostolic message.

Verse 18

‘But I say, “Did they not hear?” Yes, truly, “Their sound went out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

Paul then asks the question as to whether in fact the Messianic message has not been heard (in order to emphasise that it has been). He is no doubt referring to an objection put by some that men had not heard the message. His reply is put in Scriptural terminology, (but not necessarily as providing an authoritative citation, for it has no introductory ‘it is written’ or equivalent). Here he has in mind how the Gospel has spread widely, ‘into all the earth’, although that is not to be taken in terms of what we would call ‘worldwide’. This is evident from Romans 1:8 where Paul could say of the Roman Christians that ‘their faith was spoken of throughout the whole world’ (Romans 1:8), that is, was spoken throughout the wide area that the Gospel had reached. He was, in fact, referring to Christians who would have knowledge about the Roman church, Christians in his ‘world’. He was speaking of the world as he knew it. Compare also how Jews were gathered in Jerusalem at Pentecost from ‘every nation under Heaven’ (Acts 2:5), in other words from all around their known world.

The final sentence in the verse (18b) comes from Psalms 19:4, but he does not present it as a Scripture citation. Rather he appropriates the words as being convenient for the purpose of expressing what he wants to say, which is that the word of the messengers of the Messiah has reached the world as it was known to him. He sees the words as an indication of God’s mind, that all should hear, both Jew and Gentile.


Philip Schaff (1879)

Verse 14

Romans 10:14. How they shall call, etc. In the case of the four verbs: ‘shall call,’ ‘shall believe,’ ‘shall hear,’ ‘shall preach,’ the subjunctive (deliberative) form is better supported. ‘They’ throughout is indefinite. ‘Can’ might be substituted for ‘shall,’ but is perhaps too strong. The Apostle argues from the cited prophecy (Romans 10:13) the necessity of preachers sent forth in accordance with another prophecy (Romans 10:15), in order by thus enforcing the universality of the gospel to show more plainly the responsibility of the Jews.

On him, etc. Here and throughout the reference is to Christ

Have not believed; lit., ‘did not believe,’ indicating the beginning of faith; but English usage favors ‘have believed,’ and so in the next clause.

Of whom they have not heard. The reference is to hearing Christ through His preachers, or to hearing the Christ who is preached; since ‘of whom’ here cannot be grammatically explained as = about whom.

Without a preacher; apart from, independently of, one preaching, i.e., proclaiming a message as a herald.

Verse 18

Their sound, etc. The rest of the verse is taken from Psalms 19:4 (E. V.), in the exact words of the LXX. But it is not cited as in itself a proof from Scripture; for there is no formula of quotation, and the Psalmist is speaking of the universal revelation of God in nature, not in the gospel. The Apostle applies the language to the universal preaching of the gospel, which he affirms. there is, however, a propriety in this application. ‘The manifestation of God in nature, is for all His creatures to whom it is made, a pledge of their participation in the clearer and higher revelation’ (Hengstenberg). That the gospel had actually been preached everywhere is not what the Apostle affirms. It had become universal in its scope, and occupied the central positions of the Roman world. Its wide extension among the Gentiles showed that the Jews could find no excuse for their unbelief in not having heard. Everywhere there had been opportunity for them to hear. The verse applies even more strikingly to those in gospel lands.—‘Sound’ is the LXX. rendering of the Hebrew ‘line,’ which in the Psalm means ‘a musical chord.’

Justin Edwards (1851)

Verse 18

But I say, Have they not heard? this is said in reference to the general unbelief of men, verse Romans 10:16; as much as to say, True, few have obeyed; but is this from want of hearing? no; for their sound went into all the earth; in other words, what the Psalmist says of the instruction given by the heavens, Psalms 19:1-4, is true of the preaching of the gospel. It has been extensively proclaimed among many nations. Of course, if the people do not believe, it must be their own fault.


John Gill (1746)

Verse 14

How then shall they call on him in whom they, have not believed?.... The apostle having observed, that whoever, Jew or Gentile, believe in the Lord and call upon his name, shall be saved; and that the same Lord was ready and willing to dispense his grace, without any difference to them; suggests, that it was therefore absolutely necessary, that the Gospel should be preached to the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews; that it was the will of God it should be; that what he and others did, was by a divine commission; that they were sent by the Lord to preach the Gospel to them; that hearing they might believe, and so call upon the name of the Lord, and be saved; and therefore the Jews ought not to blame them for so doing, for there was a real necessity for it, since there can be no true calling upon God without faith, no faith without hearing, no hearing without preaching, and no preaching without a divine mission.
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and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? the meaning is, that there is no faith in Christ without hearing of him; as it is in human, so in divine faith, there may be believing without seeing, but not without hearing;
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This is to be understood of outward hearing of the word, and of adult persons only; for that, infants may have the grace of regeneration, and so faith wrought in them by the Spirit of God, without hearing the word, is not to be denied;
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and how shall they hear without a preacher? or there is no hearing without, preaching; there may be reading without it, and this ought to be where there is preaching, to see that what is preached is agreeably to the Scriptures; but there is no hearing the word explained without preaching; explaining the word is preaching. There is no hearing of Christ, and salvation by him, without the preaching of the Gospel; the usual and ordinary way of hearing from God, and of Christ, is by the ministry of the word: this shows not only the necessity and usefulness of the Gospel ministry, but also points out the subject matter of it, which is Christ, and him crucified. They that preach ought to preach concerning the person of Christ, his offices, grace, righteousness, blood, sacrifice and satisfaction, otherwise men may hear the preacher, and not hear Christ.

verse 18

But certain it is, that the apostle is speaking neither of the light of nature, nor the law of Moses, but of the preaching of the Gospel; and what the Psalmist, literally understood, says of the heavens, that the apostle in an allegorical and mystical sense, or by an argument from the lesser to the greater, or by way of allusion, applies to the apostles and ministers of the Gospel, the luminaries of the world, and stars of heaven; whose ministry, by this time, had reached the then known parts of the habitable world; as it was to do, before the destruction of Jerusalem, according to Christ's prediction, Matthew 24:14, and as the Apostle Paul testifies it had, Colossians 1:6, and in which he himself had a very considerable share, having preached the Gospel from Jerusalem, round about unto Illyricum.


John Calvin (1540)

verse 14-15

The import of what he advances is the same as though he had said, “Both Jews and Gentiles, by calling on the name of God, do thereby declare that they believe on him; for a true calling on God’s name cannot be except a right knowledge of him were first had.
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It belongs not indeed to us to imagine a God according to what we may fancy; we ought to possess a right knowledge of him, such as is set forth in his word. And when any one forms an idea of God as good, according to his own understanding, it is not a sure nor a solid faith which he has, but an uncertain and evanescent imagination; it is therefore necessary to have the word, that we may have a right knowledge of God. No other word has he mentioned here but that which is preached, because it is the ordinary mode which the Lord has appointed for conveying his word. But were any on this account to contend that God cannot transfer to men the knowledge of himself, except by the instrumentality of preaching, we deny that to teach this was the Apostle’s intention; for he had only in view the ordinary dispensation of God, and did not intend to prescribe a law for the distribution of his grace.
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It is enough for us to bear this only in mind, that the gospel does not fall like rain from the clouds, but is brought by the hands of men wherever it is sent from above.


Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges

14. πῶς οὖν κ.τ.λ. The string of rhetorical questions at once justifies S. Paul’s preaching to the Gentiles and shows that the Gospel has been offered to the Jews; they have failed, but not for lack of opportunity; this thought is developed in 16 f.

 

[swordsman1]

Barton W. Johnson (1891)

Verse 14-15

How shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed? The passages quoted from the prophets show that the Gentiles also were to have the opportunity of salvation. Hence the duty of preaching to them is now shown. They could not "call upon the Lord" (see Romans 10:13) without faith. But there could be no faith in the Lord unless they had heard of him, since knowledge is an element of faith. But they could not hear the gospel story until it was preached to them. Hence, preaching to the Gentiles was essential to carry out the purposes of God.

But how shall they preach, except they be sent? Those must go out to them who have knowledge of the gospel. Hence it was needful that the apostles and evangelists be {sent}. Hence Christ said, "Go into all the world and preach to every creature." Thus Paul shows the duty was laid upon him to preach to Greek as well as Jew.

Verse 18

Have they not heard? Who are alluded to? Both Jews and Gentiles. The objector might say, Well, if faith comes by hearing, so few have heard that we are not responsible for our unbelief. Nay, says the apostle, the opportunity to hear has been very widely extended. In the language of the Psalmist (Psalm 19:4), Their sound (that of the preachers of the gospel) is gone out into all the earth. When the vast multitude converted on Pentecost were scattered to their homes, they carried the gospel into all parts of the civilized world. Paul was now writing to the church in Rome, where no apostle had ever been.


Heinrich Meyer (1914)

Verse 14

Romans 10:14-15. Introduction: In order now that men should call on the name of the Lord, it is necessary that they should have been believing, hearing, preaching, and that the sending forth of preachers should have taken place, which sending forth also the Scripture prophesies.
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The form of the argument is a sorites, and its conclusion: The appointment of evangelical heralds is the first condition in order to bring about the calling upon the Lord. This retrograde sorites thus leads us back to the source; and of the ἀποστολή thus suggesting itself as primarily necessary, the prophetic confirmation from Isaiah 52:7 (not closely after the LXX.) is then given. This “dulcissimum dictum” (Melanchthon), because it speaks of the message of blissful liberation from exile, therein possesses the Messianic character, as concerning the restoration of the theocracy; and therefore is legitimately understood by Paul—in connection with the Messianic idea and its historical fulfilment—as a prophecy of the evangelical preachers.

Verse 18

εἰς πᾶσαν κ. τ. λ.] from Psalms 19:5 (close after the LXX.), where the subject spoken of is the universally diffused natural revelation of God; Paul clothes in these sacred words the expression of the going forth ( ἐξῆλθεν, aor.) everywhere of the preaching of the gospel. Comp. Justin, c. Tryph. 42, Apol. 1:40.

ὁ φθόγγος αὐτῶν] their sound, the sound which the preachers (to these, according to the connection, αὐτῶν refers, which in the psalm refers to heaven, the handiworks of God, day and night) send forth while they preach.


Leon Morris (1988)


14. Paul now launches into a series of rhetorical questions. The first is How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? Paul does not define his they. Obviously this is a term with wide application and may be seen as equivalent to “all people”. But the apostle may have the Jews especially in view. Throughout these chapters he is discussing the plight of his own nation, and they will be prominently in mind, whatever other application we may fairly discern. Paul advances to And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? It is possible to cavil at NIV’s rendering of whom they have not heard, a translation shared by several recent translations. But NASB has it right with “How shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?” The point is that Christ is present in the preachers; to hear them is to hear him (cf. Luke 10:16), and people ought to believe when they hear him. Paul’s third question is And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? It is important to see the impossibility of hearing without someone preaching. “Hearing” is a reflection of first century life. Paul does not raise the possibility of the message being read. While there were people who could read, the ordinary first-century citizen depended rather on being able to hear something. If the message of God was going to be effective in biblical times, it had to be heard. And for this a preacher was needed.

15. The climax to which Paul builds up is And how can they preach unless they are sent? We should not confuse preach here with the modern Sunday morning sermon (that, too, may be included in Paul’s meaning, but it is not the kind of thing he has primarily in mind). His verb properly denotes the action of a herald, someone who was given a message and told to proclaim it. The notion of a higher authority is implicit in the concept: a self-appointed herald is a contradiction in terms. Paul is saying that the preaching of the Christian message is impossible without the divine commission. A herald can have nothing to say unless it be given him. The gospel is derivative. It does not originate with preachers, and the other side of that coin is that nobody can operate as a preacher in the sense in which Paul is using the term here unless God has sent him. The words also point to a certain confidence. Paul is sure that those who proclaimed the gospel did so because God had sent them. Typically he hammers home the point with a quotation from Scripture (Isa. 52:7; cf. Nah. 1:15; the rabbis understood the former passage in a messianic sense see [SBk]). How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. It is interesting to have the feet selected as the beautiful parts of the body. But, of course, the messengers normally travelled on foot and the feet were the significant members. They might be dirty and smelly after a long, hot journey, but to those who eagerly awaited good news they were beautiful. Those who bring good news are always welcome.

18. Paul proceeds to an objection that might be raised, or perhaps it is an excuse that might be offered. He introduces it with the strong adversative “But (in contradiction)”, and proceeds to an interesting double negative construction. The effect is to rule out entirely the possibility that “they did not hear”. “They” is not defined, but as throughout this passage it means “the Jews”. Paul quotes from Scripture but without a formula of quotation. He introduces it with an expression NIV translates Of course they did. Some reason from the absence of a recognized quotation formula that Paul is not so much quoting as giving his own thought in biblical language. But since he has the exact words of Psalm 19:4, this is very improbable; he is surely invoking the authority of Scripture for the point he is making. This Psalm deals with nature, with the heavens declaring the glory of God and the skies his handiwork, with day and night playing their part. In all the earth God is revealed in the processes of nature. The second line in parallelism repeats the essential thought of the first. “The ends of the world” means that the message has penetrated to the remotest part of the inhabited earth. This raises questions. Does Paul really mean that every person in all the earth had heard the gospel? Or even every Jew? The answer in either case can scarcely be “Yes”. In this very letter Paul is envisaging a missionary trip to Spain which implies that there were people there who had not heard the gospel. His meaning is rather what Bruce calls “representative universalism”; the gospel had been widely enough preached for it to be said that representatives of Judaism throughout the known world had heard it (for this way of speaking cf. Col. 1:5–6, 23). Those who did not respond to the gospel “had at any rate as a body had the opportunities of hearing it” (SH).


Johann Bengal (1897)

Verse 14

Romans 10:14-15. πῶς, how) A descending climax; by which Paul argues from each higher to the next lower degree, and infers the necessity of the latter, as also from that necessity [infers] its very existence. He who wills the end, wills also the means. God wills that men should call upon Him for their salvation; therefore He wills that they should believe; therefore He wills that they should hear; therefore He wills that they should have preachers. Wherefore He sent preachers. He has done all that the matter [the object aimed at, viz., man’s salvation] required. His antecedent will is universal and efficacious.

Verse 18

You cannot say, can you, that the faculty of hearing was wanting in them, since faith comes only by hearing?— εἰς πᾶσαν— ῥήματα αὐτῶν) So the LXX., Psalms 19:5. In that Psalm, there is a comparison drawn, and the protasis is accordingly, Romans 10:2-7, and the apodosis, Romans 10:8, etc. Hence we clearly perceive the same reason for the Proclamation made by the heavens, and the Gospel,(119) which penetrates into all things [So the proclamation of the heavens, “There is no speech,” etc., “where their voice is not heard,” etc.] The Comparison rests mainly on the quotation of the apostle, and offers no violence to the text.— ὁ φθόγγος, the sound, Psalms 19:5, קו. Aquila had at a former period translated that word κανών, rule.—Comp. by all means, 2 Corinthians 10:13. Every apostle had his own region and province, as it were, defined, to which his voice was to come, but a rule only refers to single individuals, a sound or word extends to the whole earth.


Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown (1871)

Verse 14-15

believe in him of whom they have not heard? and … hear without a preacher? and … preach except … sent? — that is, “True, the same Lord over all is rich unto all alike that call upon Him. But this calling implies believing, and believing hearing, and hearing preaching, and preaching a mission to preach: Why, then, take ye it so ill, O children of Abraham, that in obedience to our heavenly mission (Acts 26:16-18) we preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ?”

And ... preach except sent? - q.d., 'True, the same Lord over all is rich unto all alike that call upon Him; but this calling implies believing, and believing hearing, and hearing preaching, and preaching a mission to preach. Why, then, take ye it so ill, O children of Abraham, that in obedience to our heavenly mission (Acts 26:16-18) we preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ?'

Verse 18

Their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. These beautiful words are from Psalms 19:4. Whether the apostle quoted them as in their primary intention applicable to his subject (as Olshausen, Alford, etc.), or only 'used Scriptural language (as Hodge says) to express his own ideas, as is done involuntarily almost by every preacher in every sermon' (so Calvin and many critics), expositors are not agreed. But though the latter may seem the more natural-since 'the rising of the Sun of righteousness upon the world' (Malachi 4:2), 'the day-spring from on high visiting us, giving light to them that sat in darkness, and guiding our feet into the way of peace' (Luke 1:78-79), must have been familiar and delightful to the apostle's ear-we cannot doubt that the irradiation of the world with the beams of a better sun, by the universal diffusion of the Gospel of Christ, must have been a mode of speaking quite natural, and to him scarcely figurative; not to say that in that very Psalm (as Alford and others justly observe) the glory of God in His Word is represented as transcending and eclipsing that of His works in nature, of which this verse more immediately speaks.


John Trapp (1865)

Verse 18

David’s words are here very fitly applied to the sound of the gospel; the circle whereof is like that of the sun, universal to the whole world; and the motion not unlike: for it arose in the east of Judea, went thence to the south of Greece, and then to the west of Italy and the Latins; from whence it is come to these northern parts of the world (the very utmost angle of the universe), where that it may continue, let us pray,


Matthew Poole (1685)

Verse 14

How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? Amongst the elect of God, there may be some that are born deaf; and in these, God doth supply the want of outward means in an extraordinary way: but ordinarily, hearing is as necessary to faith, as faith is to prayer, or prayer to salvation.

Verse 18

He answers an objection, that some one might make in behalf of the Jews, to excuse them; that they could not believe, because they had not heard; and faith, as in the foregoing verse, comes by hearing. To this he answers, that the gospel was published to the whole world; therefore the Jews must needs have heard it. That the gospel had been preached all the world over, he proves by a testimony taken ont of Psalms 19:4: q. d. David tells you, that all have heard, or might hear; for the sound of the gospel is gone out into all the earth.


Joseph Benson (1857)

Verses 14-17

And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? — “Even the works of nature and providence must be made known to mankind by instructers, to make them able to understand them: much more the gospel of Christ.” — Baxter. Or the apostle speaks here chiefly, if not only, of believing in Christ, and therefore his words are not inconsistent with what he advances, Romans 1:19-20, concerning the existence and perfectio

St. Paul probably intended to intimate, that as the apostles, and other first ministers of the gospel, were originally Jews, their own prejudices on this head were so strong, that they never would have thought of carrying the gospel to the Gentiles if God had not particularly charged them to do it; especially as its avowed opposition to the idolatry and the other vices which reigned in the Gentile countries, could not but expose them, more or less, to persecution in various forms, wherever they came and attempted to preach it. Thus, by a chain of reasoning from God’s will, that the Gentiles also should call upon him, Paul infers that the apostles were sent by God to preach to them also.

Verses 18-21

Romans 10:18-21. But I say, Have they not heard — As if he had said, Their unbelief was not owing to the want of hearing. For they have heard; yes, verily, &c. — So many nations have already heard the preachers of the gospel, that I may, in some sense, say of them as David did of the lights of heaven, Their sound went into all the earth, &c. — To the utmost parts of the known world.

Verse 18

Romans 10:18. But I say. The strongly adversative ‘but’ introduces the answer to a possible objection, in excuse of the unbelief spoken of in Romans 10:16.

Did they not hear? ‘They,’ i.e., those who did not hearken; the Jews are meant, but not yet directly spoken of. The question in the Greek points to a negative answer: It cannot be that they did not hear, they did hear, though they did not hearken, hence have not this excuse.

Nay, verily. Comp. chap. Romans 9:20, where the same word is rendered ‘nay but.’ We substitute ‘nay,’ for ‘yes,’ to indicate the relation to the question: so far from its being the case that they did not hear, the very opposite is true.

 

[swordsman1]

William Burkitt (1700)

Verse 14

The scope of the apostle in these words is to prove, that these words is to prove, that there was a necessity of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews, in order to their believing on Christ; and his way of arguing is very forcible, demonstrative, and convincing. Thus, "God has by the prophets promised salvation to the Gentiles; but without calling on him there is no salvation; and without faith there is no calling upon him by prayer; and without hearing there is no faith; and without a preacher there is no hearing; and without solemn mission, or sending by Christ and his ministers, there can be no preacher."

And the apostle's manner of speaking is by way ofinterrogation, which is equivalent to a negation: How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

That is, it is impossible to do it, and it would be impious and wicked to do it. None must be the object of our prayers, but he that is the object of our faith and trust: now it is God alone that is the object of our faith and trust; therefore he alone must be prayed unto.
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From the whole observe, That the only way to heaven is by Christ, the only way to Christ is by faith, the only way to faith is by the word, it cometh by hearing; the only way, that is, the only ordinary way.

What becomes of those that never heard of Christ in the preaching of the gospel, God only is fit to judge. This is certain, that all men at the great day shall be judged according to the law that they were under, and obliged by, and no other. Now promulgation being the essence of a law, the gospel cannot be a law to them to whom it was not promulgated and made known; but a practical belief of the gospel is indispensably necessary to the salvation of them to whom it is revealed.

Verse 18

It was no less than a miracle that the gospel, in the space of a few years, should be preached to all nations, and planted in the remotest parts of the world; and yet thus it was; which makes St. Paul here apply that to the preaching of the apostles, which David applies to the preaching of the heavens, Psalms 19:4.

The gospel of Christ, like the sun in the firmament, casts its beautiful and glorious beams all the world over. For upon the commission given out by Christ to his apostles, to go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature, the apostles divided themselves into the several quarters of the world, for the speedy performance of this service, namely, the carrying of the gospel, as the sun doth his light, unto all the nations of the earth. As if St. Paul had here said, "Like as the voice of the heavens are gone through the world, so is the voice of Christ and the light of his gospel, which doth much more declare the glory of God than the sun and the moon in the heavens can do."

Some observe, that there was hardly any one considerable nation in the world, but within forty years after Christ's ascension had the glad tidings of the gospel preached to it.


John Wesley (1765)

But how shall they preach, unless they be sent — Thus by a chain of reasoning, from God's will that the gentiles also should "call upon him," St. Paul infers that the apostles were sent by God to preach to the gentiles also.

Verse 18

But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

But their unbelief was not owing to the want of hearing For they have heard. Yes verily - So many nations have already heard the preachers of the gospel, that I may in some sense say of them as David did of the lights of heaven. Psalm 29:4


Henry Alford (1863)

Verse 14-15

It has been much doubted to whom these questions refer,—to Jews or to Gentiles? It must, I think, be answered, To neither exclusively. They are generalized by the πᾶς ὃς ἄν of the preceding verse, to mean all, both Jews and Gentiles. And the inference in what follows, though mainly concerning the rejection of the unbelieving Jews, has regard also to the reception of the Gentiles: see below on Romans 10:19-20.

At the same time, as Meyer remarks, “the necessity of the Gospel ἀποστολή must first be laid down, in order to bring out in strong contrast the disobedience of some.” How then (i.e. posito, that the foregoing is so) can they (men, represented by the πᾶς ὃς ἄν of Romans 10:13) call on (I have followed the majority of the chief MSS. in reading the aor. subjunctive instead of the future indic. So also ch. Romans 6:1) Him in whom they have not believed (i.e. begun to believe: so ch. Romans 13:11)? But how can they believe (in Him) of whom they have not heard (construction see reff.)? But how can they hear without a preacher? But how can men preach unless they shall have been sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who [publish glad tidings of peace, who] publish glad tidings of ( τά is excluded by the strong manuscript testimony against it) good things. The Apostle is shewing the necessity and dignity of the preachers of the word, which leads on to the universality of their preaching, leaving all who disobey it without excuse. He therefore cites this, as shewing that their instrumentality was one recognized in the prophetic word, where their office is described and glorified.


Henry Mahan (2013)

Romans 10:14. In this verse Paul insists on the necessity of preaching the gospel to sinners. None can be saved who do not call on the Lord. None can call upon the true name of the Lord if they do not believe he is willing and able to save. None can believe he is willing and able to save if they have not heard of his grace, his death, and his redemption; and none can hear these things unless these glad tidings are preached to him! (Mark 16:15-16; James 1:18; John 5:24.)

Verse 14-15

Romans 10:14. How then can they call on him? [πῶς οὖν ἐπικαλέσωνται εἰς, κ.τ.λ.. See Textual Note14, and below.] The proof, clothed in the vivacious form of a question, of the necessity of the universal apostleship and of his preaching, is a sorites. Faith in the Lord precedes calling upon Him (in order to be saved); the hearing of the message of faith precedes faith; but His message presupposes preachers, and preaching presupposes again a corresponding mission. From this it then follows, that the apostolate urges forward the preaching in the name of the Lord, and that unbelief in the apostolic message is disobedience to the Lord himself.

 

[swordsman1]

lol, the sad thing is you simply cannot admit to even the smallest error, and you make big ones too. It is so simple many men were involved in these Bibles, and they all put the word "preacher" in them. You are so clearly corrected by this but you just wont admit anything, not even one error. That is the big problem here. Intellectual reasoning of men often thinks it has all the answers. But when a few strong scriptures about the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world is used, they crumble into natural human reason to try and avoid the spiritual language and meanings and rationalize everything into a natural understanding.

This section applies today to many I believe.


Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

No, you are wrong again. It was one person, William Tyndale, who translated κηρυσσοντος as 'preacher' when it should have been a verb. This was then copied into the KJV and other versions (90% of the KJV consists of Tyndale's wording). Then many other bibles were derived from the KJV (eg versions with modernized language, different colored texts, etc).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I have previously explained to you, the OT saints were in a different dispensation and were not saved the same way as us. They did not have the gospel as we do today, so they could not look back to the Cross. Instead they looked forward to the coming Messiah as spoken of in the OT. And prior to the OT by trusting in God's verbal promises. Nor did they receive the Holy Spirit as we do, and so were not born of the Spirit. But the context of Rom 10 does not include OT saints, it is clearly referring to gospel preaching in the current dispensation. Note the plethora of future tenses in v13-15. So you are wrong to try and shoehorn them into the passage. And pagans and unbelievers in unevangelized parts of the world are not saved no matter how enlightened they feel. Without the gospel of Jesus Christ nobody can be saved as the plain reading of Rom 10 and many other verses indicate (Acts 4:12, Acts 11:14, Acts 16:14, John 3:16, John 5:24, Rom 1:18-23, etc). Hence the Great Commision and the need for missionaries.

The 'they' in verse 18 is also not OT saints or those in remote parts. They are not in the context here either. "They" are the people spoken of in v16 - Jews who have not obeyed the gospel call. Paul asks is there a reason for their disbelief, perhaps they didn't hear the message. "Have they not heard?", he asks. Yes they have heard the gospel he answers, "Yes verily, their [the gospel preachers] sound went into all the earth, and their words [the gospel message] unto the ends of the world [the known world at the time]." Despite hearing the gospel, they still refused to believe. Paul then goes on to explain why in verses 19-21.

While we disagree about OT saints, what you have said does remind me of Cornelius. Cornelius was not saved prior to Peter's arrival about the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Yet, God could have chosen to save Cornelius by some other means (like a revelation, etc.). Yes, the Lord Jesus had talked to Paul directly, but he was one of the few rare exceptions. He was to be a great minister to the Gentiles. This is evident in the fact that the majority of our New Testament is written by his hand (under the inspiration of the Spirit). Certainly not everyone had the same experience Paul did.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, you are wrong again. It was one person, William Tyndale, who translated κηρυσσοντος as 'preacher' when it should have been a verb. This was then copied into the KJV and other versions (90% of the KJV consists of Tyndale's wording). Then many other bibles were derived from the KJV (eg versions with modernized language, different colored texts, etc).

Yes, the original Greek word has been only used as a verb elsewhere in the Scriptures. But it is not uncommon in our language to have words be both a noun and a verb. The word "drink" can refer to a noun or a verb. There other examples like this in the English language. Besides, whether it is a verb or noun, it does not change anything in my view. We hear the gospel by a preacher or by one preaching, etc.

 

[swordsman1]

You are wrong again...

I quoted other men as well, if you read carefully. The point is that I quoted men that are in agreement with me on some of these matters and these things have been seen and written about for centuries by others. So your false claim that what i teach has never been seen before is false. Paul saw these things and Peter and John and many others in ancient times.

I believe I quoted Robert Barclay, Clement of Alexandria, Augustine, George Buchanan, Justin Martyr, and i could quote more...

Just making stuff up about me doesn't help your case. In fact not much can if you simply deny and seek to distort certain strong scriptures.

and Barclays arguments in this area are much closer than yours. There were men that argued with the men (called by some "Quakers") who said that Jesus Christ was not in believers but that he was far off in heaven and so could not be in believers. To which the Quakers would respond that if they did not have Jesus Christ in them they were reprobate. These sound like similar arguments to day and I'm sure they would use the same arguments today they met some of these early writers.

a section to consider

"O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."(Psalm 139 1-8 KJV

You didn't quote them. As I said everything you quoted was the works of the Quaker, Robert Barclay. Everything from "Clement of Alexandria saith..." to the end of your post was copied from his book 'An Apology for the True Christian Divinity', but you failed to cite him (why?). He quotes a few sentences from the church fathers (none of which agree with your unorthodox view of Romans 10), but the bulk of the text was Barclay's own spin. In fact not even Barclay himself agrees with your interpretation on Rom 10. You haven't shown me one commentator who agrees with you as I asked.

 

[swordsman1]

Isaiah 40:31, 41:1 KJV
But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment."

1 Corinthians 14:28-31 KJV)
"28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."

Romans 12:3-7 KJV
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:"(Romans 12;3-7 KJV)

John 4:23
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

1 Peter 4:7
"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."

John 16:13
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."(Spoken to believers not just for apostles 1 Corintians 2 and 1 John 2:27 KJV)

Ecclesiastes 5
"Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?
7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God."

Many are inwardly estranged and ravening from the Spirit of God and the pure leadings and empowering of His Spirit, and think to go forth in their own wills and minds and do works and worship that is in the flesh, who see no benefit at all for waiting on the Lord to be led by Him, in fact, they think it was the height of folly and confusion to even try to seek the Lord to lead, empower and give understanding and direction in a gathering of believers in this way. Instead, they rush ahead in their own wills and minds in fleshly forms denying the power and seek to speak in the words which mans wisdom teacheth. With a unending flow of excellency of speech and natural understandings, their human intellect is elevated to the highest heights and their so called unbiblical "Masters Degrees" and" "flattering titles" they relish in and that they put before them. These things they see as their marks of thier approval and honour of men, but the opposite is true, they are marks of their error and dominion over men which they should not have (2 Cor 1:24 KJV).

But if we ask such men if they have ever heard the voice of the Lord they will scoff at you and deride you with contempt for even suggesting such a thing exist today. How sad for some of those who walk in the darkness and vanity of their mind alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them (Ephesians 4:17-22 KJV). How many among those that in darkness and those also who have some light are unaware that Christ as the head works effectually in every part of the body to make increase of the body unto the edifying of it self in love (Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV). How much stronger and secure in the Light and power of Christ would they come to understand if they let the Peace of God rule in them, and the as God governs their hearts, in trembling and patience. If all those who profess Christ were to Let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly and from this leading they teach and admonish one another and build eachother up (Colossians 3:15,16 KJV).this can only happen though as they meet the test of 2 Cor. 13:5KJV.

But in this form that they call a "worship" and "church service" they feel that they have done a great deed and press this form upon all the faithful. Though, some grace is given to the babes and those who seek the Lord in truth in such places. These forms often hinder many who are draw away into
the busy activity of religious vigour and the distracting confusion in such an order that can clutter the mind and heart of those who wait upon the Lord. In fact, many are not even taught to wait n the Lord for Him to lead in their meetings. Instead all is pre programed and on a tight time frame. The spirit can easily be quenched by such things and this hinders the body ministry in Christ. They do not follow the commands of the Lord to edify one another as they are led (1 Cor 14:26-38 KJV). Instead they are bound up in a man made programs, where most of the body is not on the "program", and neither I fear is the Lord in many places. He truly may be outside knocking and wanting to come into them and sup with them, and to participate with them. But they think all is well and they need nothing. They are rich and increased with goods and rich in their own opinion of themselves and their vast knowledge collected for centuries. Rich in their large man made edifices unbiblically called "churches", with their rituals and human led order of "service". All of which can be shown to be against the order of God for the church.

By Not waiting on the Lord for all things in leading, empowering and understanding many go forth in their own flesh carnal apprehension and do not acknowledge or wait on the Lord. But we read that God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and to make us perfect unto every good work, working in us that which is well pleasing through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV). This is the normal Christian life to those who are exercised in this walk in the order of God who seek to live in the rule of Christian life, which is to walk and live in the Spirit in the new creation in Christ Jesus and to be led therin. Jesus said without him we can do nothing (John 15). So why do men assume to try and do all things without him in their gatherings and lives and go about to establish their own works and efforts and in a feverish frenzy try to work hard to create a "service" where the show must go on??

But these things are not right and as God said to some of the old days, there is a similar warnings.


"11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."(Isaiah 1:11-18 KJV)

Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Matthew 23:27
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."

Isaiah 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Matthew 23:14 KJV
"14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.'

1 Thessalonians 5:17
Pray without ceasing."

Ephesians 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;"

1 Cor 2:1-14 KJV
"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Do you seriously think anyone is going to be fooled by you quoting multitudes of verses from scriptures out of context, none of which prove your claim that we receive extra-biblical revelations via our feelings.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Strong's Lexicon defines the Greek word "kēryssō":

1. to be a herald, to officiate as a herald.
   1. to proclaim after the manner of a herald.
      
      
   2. always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed. .........................................................................................................................................................
2. to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done
   
   
3. used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers.

So it is saying it can be a noun (because it defines it as "herald" in one of it's definitions) and it is also a verb, too.

Source:
kēryssō - Blue Letter Bible.

A herald is one who is an official messenger.

Definition of HERALD

 

[LoveofTruth]

I couldn't find a single commentator that agrees with your bizarre view of Romans 10.

You call my understanding a "bizzar view". Bizzar -meaning "very strange or unusual". I suppose that's how some spiritual things would look to men with natural eyes. They are foolishness to them Paul said in 1 Cor 2. The mystery that has been hid is still a mystery to some.

I also never said that God doesn't use preachers, or that the gospel as revealed in the history of Christ life death burrial and resurrection is not the saving work for all men and that this gospel must be preached. It must be preached as I agree with all scripture about this.But you fail to see the power of the gospel and the inward hope of the gospel that has been preached to every creature under heaven. This chapter 10 in Romans speaks of many things. But the way Paul uses his questions is showing a more profound truth that you do not see, no matter how it is shown from scripture. You simply run to your few examples of a few men from the past who did not see certain spiritual things in the mystery. Many of them most likely did not believe in the gifts of the Spirit today or that God still speaks immediately through revelation to the saints.

When you use your, "these men don't agree with you" argument, this is a false argument and not according to sound words and reason. If some think that by gathering a few men from the past to prove their case was right then all the cults and false religions could do the same with their writers and many men.

I am not against refering to others views but it does not prove the case itself. Scripture is still understood only by the Spirit.

There are many scriptures that show the Old testament saints were born again, saved, in Christ, had the seed in them, which is Christ and were save the same way we are. They could not however enter into the fullness and were hid with God in Christ until Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sin of the world and was burried and rose again from the dead. God was able to give them the free gift that came upon all men through the work of Christ Jesus and the future events of the cross and resurrection. They were able to have the treasure in earthen vessels and this was the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Consider the words "Every man". This would include all men from Adam until today.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do you seriously think anyone is going to be fooled by you quoting multitudes of verses from scriptures out of context, none of which prove your claim that we receive extra-biblical revelations via our feelings.

all of the verses I quoted have a specific relation to the discussion at hand and about waiting and being led by God and silence.

they were in response to yur words

"The Quakers were/are known to sit in silence and meditate until they felt the 'Inner Light' teaching them something."


I also said

"Many are inwardly estranged and ravening from the Spirit of God and the pure leadings and empowering of His Spirit, and think to go forth in their own wills and minds and do works and worship that is in the flesh, who see no benefit at all for waiting on the Lord to be led by Him, in fact, they think it was the height of folly and confusion to even try to seek the Lord to lead, empower and give understanding and direction in a gathering of believers in this way. Instead, they rush ahead in their own wills and minds in fleshly forms denying the power and seek to speak in the words which mans wisdom teacheth. With a unending flow of excellency of speech and natural understandings, their human intellect is elevated to the highest heights and their so called unbiblical "Masters Degrees" and" "flattering titles" they relish in and that they put before them. These things they see as their marks of their approval and honour of men, but the opposite is true, they are marks of their error and dominion over men which they should not have (2 Cor 1:24 KJV).

But if we ask such men if they have ever heard the voice of the Lord they will scoff at you and deride you with contempt for even suggesting such a thing exist today. How sad for some of those who walk in the darkness and vanity of their mind alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them (Ephesians 4:17-22 KJV). How many among those that in darkness and those also who have some light are unaware that Christ as the head works effectually in every part of the body to make increase of the body unto the edifying of it self in love (Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV). How much stronger and secure in the Light and power of Christ would they come to understand if they let the Peace of God rule in them, where God governs their hearts, and where they work out thier own salvation with fear and trembling with patience. If all those who profess Christ were to Let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly and from this leading they were to teach and admonish one another and build eachother up (Colossians 3:15,16 KJV).this would help incredibly in all things. This can only happen though as they meet the test of 2 Cor. 13:5KJV.

But in this “form” that they call a "worship" and "church service" they feel that they have done a great deed and press this “form” upon all the faithful. Though some grace is given to the babes and those who seek the Lord in truth in such places. These forms often hinder many who are draw away into
the busy activity of religious vigour and the distracting confusion in such an order that can clutter the mind and heart of those who wait upon the Lord. In fact, many are not even taught to wait n the Lord for Him to lead in their meetings. Instead all is pre programed and on a tight time frame. The spirit can easily be quenched by such things and this hinders the body ministry in Christ. They do not follow the commands of the Lord to edify one another as they are led (1 Cor 14:26-38 KJV). Instead they are bound up in a man made programs, where most of the body is not on the "program", and neither I fear is the Lord in many places. He truly may be outside knocking and wanting to come into them and sup with them, and to participate with them. But they think all is well and they need nothing. They are rich and increased with goods and rich in their own opinion of themselves and their vast knowledge collected for centuries. Rich in their large man made edifices unbiblically called "churches", with their rituals and human led order of "service". All of which can be shown to be against the order of God for the church.

By Not waiting on the Lord for all things in leading, empowering and understanding many go forth in their own flesh carnal apprehension and do not acknowledge or wait on the Lord. But we read that God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and to make us perfect unto every good work, working in us that which is well pleasing through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV). This is the normal Christian life to those who are exercised in this walk in the order of God who seek to live in the rule of Christian life, which is to walk and live in the Spirit in the new creation in Christ Jesus and to be led therin. Jesus said without him we can do nothing (John 15). So why do men assume to try and do all things without him in their gatherings and lives and go about to establish their own works and efforts and in a feverish frenzy try to work hard to create a "service" where the show must go on??"

 

[swordsman1]

Cornelius was not saved prior to Peter's arrival about the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Yet, God could have chosen to save Cornelius by some other means (like a revelation, etc.).

Indeed. God told Cornelius that it was the gospel message that would save him and his household.

Acts 11:14 "and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."​

 

[swordsman1]

Yes, the original Greek word has been only used as a verb elsewhere in the Scriptures. But it is not uncommon in our language to have words be both a noun and a verb. The word "drink" can refer to a noun or a verb. There other examples like this in the English language. Besides, whether it is a verb or noun, it does not change anything in my view. We hear the gospel by a preacher or by one preaching, etc.

The lexicons I have consulted only say κηρυσσοντος is a verb.

I agree it doesn't really change the meaning. Apart from when people try to make out it is referring to a 'divine preacher' (singular). My point was that the KJV is not a perfect translation.

 

[swordsman1]

Strong's Lexicon defines the Greek word "kēryssō":

1. to be a herald, to officiate as a herald.
   1. to proclaim after the manner of a herald.
      
      
   2. always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed. .........................................................................................................................................................
2. to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done
   
   
3. used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptist, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers.

So it is saying it can be a noun (because it defines it as "herald" in one of it's definitions) and it is also a verb, too.

Source:
kēryssō - Blue Letter Bible.

A herald is one who is an official messenger.

Definition of HERALD

It is still a verb. To be a herald. Not, a herald.

 

[swordsman1]

You simply run to your few examples of a few men from the past who did not see certain spiritual things in the mystery. Many of them most likely did not believe in the gifts of the Spirit today or that God still speaks immediately through revelation to the saints.

You "these men don't agree with you" argument is a false argument and not according to sound words and reason. If some think that by gathering a few men from the past to prove their case was right then all the cults and false religions could do the same with their writers and many men.

As I said before the commentators I quote are not just the great theologians from the past, but include many recent commentaries as well. If your view of Rom 10 is the correct one, why is it that only you have come up with it? If yours is the correct interpretation you would expect there to at least some other respected commentators who have also 'seen the light'. The reason is because your exegesis (if you can call it that) is demonstrably wrong. And not just on this passage but on many others, as I have repeatedly shown.

 

[swordsman1]

all of the verses I quoted have a specific relation to the discussion at hand and about waiting and being led by God and silence.

they were in response to yur words

"The Quakers were/are known to sit in silence and meditate until they felt the 'Inner Light' teaching them something."

None of those verses say we are to sit in silence until we feel an 'Inner Light' teaching us.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are clearly twisting scripture here to try to make it support your heretical claim that people in remote parts of the world can be saved without hearing the gospel message, but rather by hearing an "inner voice".

This is one of your grand errors.

I believe they hear the gospel hope in their hearts and God is able to save them through the work of Jesus Christ done in the future. They will be judged according to the gospel. Similarily as he saved all those in Hebrews 11 who were before any scripture of before Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

And I believe they do hear the "hope of the gospel" which is Christ in you the hope of glory. They also have the light of the glorious gospel shining in them. But they may not have the scriptures or the history of Jesus Christ life, death for sin and burrial and resurrection etc. Yet in the gospel God declares His righteousness for salvation. It is the righteousness of God that men are coming to believe when they believe the gospel. Jesus said blessed are those who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, they shall be filled. Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God revealed. So even though they didn't have the history of Jesus Christ work for them yet. They had this righteousness witness by the law and the prophets and the gospel in type in many examples. We even read that the gospel was preached before unto Abraham.

But as far as the gentile nations who had no scriptures and no outward history of Jesus Christ preached to them in their outward ears. God has not left himself with out witness and has borne witness to the hearts of men by the true Light which lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.

God is not only the God of the Jew but of the Gentiles also, and he has always been. Both can come into the fellowship of the mystery that has been hid from ages and from generations. This mystery of Christ in you was there but hid in the hearts. Hid also in hid in the types and shadows of the OT. In some respect the mystery of Christ was hid in his physical body as well. Some could only see a man walking and doing works. Other saw who he was in spirit by revelation of the Father. So he was in some was even hid from many in the flesh.

But we definitely read of salvation in the old testament in many places and of them being born again as I have shown.

Here are just a few verses that trouble your doctrine and expose the clear error of it. You may need to rush to your few teachers from commentaries to try and answer away these verses. But that is not going to change the truth I share here. It doesn't matter how many don't see this mystery. It is still there according to scripture.

Consider,

Isaiah 45:20-22 KJV
"20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."

Acts 10:26,27 KJV
"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"


John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 2:13-16 KJV
"13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Acts 10:34,35 KJV
"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Jeremiah 17:10
"I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Hebrews 4:2
"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Psalm 145:9
The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Romans 5:18
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

2 Corinthians 4:2-7 KJV
"2...but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

Romans 10:12,13 KJV
"12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Amos 9:7
Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?

To a Roman before the cross Jesus said,

Matthew 8:10, 11
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."

To a Cananite woman,

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour"

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;...27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"

 

[LoveofTruth]

As I said before the commentators I quote are not just the great theologians from the past, but include many recent commentaries as well. If your view of Rom 10 is the correct one, why is it that only you have come up with it? If yours is the correct interpretation you would expect there to at least some other respected commentators who have also 'seen the light'. The reason is because your exegesis (if you can call it that) is demonstrably wrong. And not just on this passage but on many others, as I have repeatedly shown.

I already showed you men from the past that have seen it. I quoted just a sample of them.

But all I need is Paul who spoke this mystery and John and Peter and certainly Jesus.

 

[LoveofTruth]

As I said before the commentators I quote are not just the great theologians from the past, but include many recent commentaries as well. If your view of Rom 10 is the correct one, why is it that only you have come up with it? If yours is the correct interpretation you would expect there to at least some other respected commentators who have also 'seen the light'. The reason is because your exegesis (if you can call it that) is demonstrably wrong. And not just on this passage but on many others, as I have repeatedly shown.

Romans 10

"10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

Here Paul is referring to Israel and his hope for them.


"2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."

He speaks of their religious fever and zeal, but they do not have that knowledge of God. This knowledge he touches on which is an inward knowledge and revelation. Jesus also said to them they did not Know the scriptures nor the power of God. They were outwardly beautiful like a seplcure but inwardly full of dead men's bones. They did not have the word of God abiding in them. They were inwardly ravening and the light that was in them was darkness.


"3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

The did not know God's righteousness. The righteousness of God was witnessed in the law and the prophets and revealed in Jesus Christ and the gospel. For men to come to know God's righteousness and the free gift of righteousness and to be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, they need to have a heart change and inward reality.

Jesus spoke of this as well when he said

Matthew 5:6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

Notice the part “they shall be filled”. This refers to the inward life and work of God in men.

The law for righteousness or men trying to follow the law of Moses was as Paul said the letter that kills (2 Cor 3) but the Spirit gives life. Paul said that they are not Jews outwardly but inwardly and the true circumcision is of the heart and in the spirit, not in the flesh. They went about to establish their own self righteousness before God, by their works of the law. But they can do nothing without Christ and no works can merit grace or put God in their debt. The true righteousness is of faith and an inward reality which they missed.


"4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Christ dwells in the heart by faith. This is where God works and searches and empowers believers. No outward works of the law can do this. We are no longer under the law, or as a Jew they would no longer be under the Mosaic law.

"5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."

If any man could keep the law spotless they would live in those things. But all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and no man is justified by the works of the law. But they were under the law and it was given because of transgressions. For by the law is the knowledge of sin. The Jews did not come by faith but stumbled at Christ.


"6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above"

Now Paul touches on the spiritual aspect. This is the way God reaches both Jew and Gentile as he spoke of earlier in previous chapters. The quote Paul gives here is from Deuteronomy 30. Paul reminds them of the law that they thought they could try to keep to be righteous. But when he quotes Deuteronomy 30, he is showing a mystery, Yes God gave the law and the commandments at the mountain to them, but God showed them that the commandment was not hidden from them. Even before they had the tables of stone, God was at work in them by His word or seed sown in their heart. This is the spiritual aspect that they missed. Paul is bold here and says in referring to the words in Deuteronomy 30, that it was really speaking of Christ in them. He says, "that is, to bring Christ down from above:".

If you pause here and really look at what Paul is showing them, you can see that to mention Christ in connection to the OT passage where God says that the commandment is not hid from them, it is not afar off etc, is saying that they should have heard in their hearts. This is where God's voice speaks. And as the true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world, God works in them and speaks, this is his word that is night unto them, or close to them. This was touched on a bit in Romans 2:14,15, where Paul spoke of how the Gentles can be justified with God and how God will judge the secrets of men. These secrets are again spoken of here when Paul speaks of the commandment not being hidden even before it was given in stone. This law that was working in them is none other than "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" this is the life and inward witness.

Paul is trying to show that God has already witnesses, or preached in the heats of all. They should have been able to know God inwardly. And if this was the case, then why was the law added? Paul mentions this in another place and says the law was added because of transgressions. They ignored the witness inwardly and did not come to the light. This they did because their deeds were evil. So God wrote it in stone, to expose sin and like a schoolmaster to bring them unto Christ. But Christ is not far from every one of them.


"7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)"

Paul reinforces his point by quoting more from Deuteronomy 30. Remember God said that the commandment was not hidden from them, or afar off but nigh unto them in their heart and mouths. Notice again Paul speaks of Christ in connection to the true meaning of Deuteronomy. In Deuteronomy we do not see the word Christ but instead we see the word "it". But if we put the interpretation that Paul put in there we see the mystery and begin to understand the depth of this chapter. It is marvelous and a spiritual truth.

"10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."(Deuteronomy 30:10)

Now lets see it with Paul's revelation and as he said it really means,

"10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, Christ is not hidden from thee, neither is Christ far off.
12 Christ is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring Christ unto us, that we may hear Christ, and do Christ?
13 Neither is Christ beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring Christ unto us, that we may hear Christ, and do Christ?
14 But the word of Christ is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do Christ."(Deuteronomy 30:10)

Jesus said I in you and you in me...without me ye can do nothing. And to Abrahama and His seed we read that the seed is Christ (Gal 3).


"8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"

Now Paul continues from Deuteronomy again showing where the word is. It is close to you, or "nigh" unto thee, in thy heart and in thy mouth. This word that is inward and gives life is the word of Christ in them. This is the same word OF faith that flows from them. The word of God came out from the believers and preachers and this word is the same as the Old Testament saints had as well. The context of this entire chapter shows these things.


"9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Now he addresses his audience, both Jew and Gentile and shows again what he has been talking about in relation to the HEART. This is where man believes , inwardly in the spirit. He that is born of the spirit is a child of God. Born again by the engrafted word, that is able to save the soul (James 1). The word of truth, the incorruptible seed which is the word of God.The word of God is quick (alive and powerful).

Paul also connects this truth with the history of the gospel and Jesus Christ resurrection. Paul had already spoke of the connection of the gospel he preached to the “secrets of men” and the work of the law written in the hearts of the Gentiles in Romans (2:14,15 KJV). He does it here as well.


"10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Now he addresses a more broad spectrum of people and that God can reach all men. He does not say "thou" here, but "man" in general.


"11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."


12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Again, this broad spectrum of God's salvation is mentioned. He alluded to it by quoting Deuteronomy 30 and showed that God is not far from every one of us, nigh unto them and to all. He already spoke of the Gentiles as well and that God has spoken to all by nature (or the natural way God deals with all men Rom 2:14,25 KJV). Through the work of the law written in their hearts. This work of the law written would be similar to the Jews as well as the Gentiles. The inward reality is for all men, no difference. The true Light still lighteh every man that cometh into the world ( John 1:9) This every man would include all men from Adam until today.

Paul says that the same Lord (for both Jews and Gentiles) is rich unto ALL that call upon him,. This "ALL" here covers all men of the entire world of all time, both Jew and Gentile. As Paul says. This shows the broad reach of God the divine preacher who has witnessed or preached in their hearts by Christ the word. This is not specifically the history of Jesus life in the flesh and death and resurrection that God has preached but the hope of the gospel and God's righteousness which is seen in the gospel.

When men are convicted and reproved by the light at first they will come to see their sin and unrighteousness, if they are humbled and a broken spirit and contrite heart and cry unto the Lord they are in effect seeking God's righteousness and provision for their sin and salvation. God responds to such a heart (Psalm 51 etc). They are in fact seeking Jesus Christ as their saviour they just don't know him yet in the flesh or his coming. God can call those things that are not as though they were and work in the heart that receives his word (Christ) through faith (Hebrews 12 etc). Christ dwells in the heart by faith. This is how God can give them life but only through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross in time (Romans 5 etc)


"13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Paul had already shown that the "whosoever" includes Jews and Gentiles. And this extends to the past as well as the future here, for Paul referred to the OT words in Deuteronomy as well. We can say with Paul here that even if a Gentile was in the most remote parts of the world that God has placed him there that he can seek the Lord and feel after him (inwardly in his heart) and find him, For as Paul said this in Acts 17, he also said in this chapter that the word is night unto them, close to them all. This is Christ witnessing in them.


"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Now Paul assumes there natural questions from his words. If Paul said that all can call upon the Lord and be saved both Jews and Gentiles and that there is no difference and that Gods word is close to them all. Then some might ask "How can this be?" Notice again, the QUESTIONS asked. Many people seem to ignore the questions ask and act as though Paul is simply making a statement. Instead of Paul saying, "How shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?" They would word it "they cannot call n him in whom they have not believed!" ignoring the question mark.

If men do not hear about Jesus Christ or have a preacher to preach to them or heard any other way. How can this be? This is the question. Paul is not dealing specifically that God uses preachers to preach the gospel. Even though God as the divine preacher who has witnessed to all preaches through preachers, scripture, creation and other gifts. This is not the main point here. He is speaking of God working close to all in their heart by Christ, as he already spoke of. It is similar to Deiuteronomy when God gave them the law but said they already had it close to them. It was not hidden. Paul does a similar thing in this chapter. But first he poses the questions and answers them.


"15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

Again, Paul shows the extent of the word of faith working in the hearts of men and how God has preached through them to all. This is God who sends them, not themselves. So again unless God works in them to will and to do they can do nothing either,Paul could be bringing this aspect in here to show that even a preacher has to hear inwardly the word. Paul said the word that is nigh to all is the same word of faith that he preached in vs 8.

continued....

 

[LoveofTruth]

As I said before the commentators I quote are not just the great theologians from the past, but include many recent commentaries as well. If your view of Rom 10 is the correct one, why is it that only you have come up with it? If yours is the correct interpretation you would expect there to at least some other respected commentators who have also 'seen the light'. The reason is because your exegesis (if you can call it that) is demonstrably wrong. And not just on this passage but on many others, as I have repeatedly shown.

continued from Romans 10 discussion

"16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Paul shows that the gospel was preached to even the OT saints here and he quotes Isaiah. We also saw that the obedience spoken of is through faith and with the heart man believeth unto righteousness. And we know that whosoever is born of God worketh righteousness and have the seed in them (1 John 3:9 KJV).


"17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

So faith comes by hearing the word of God inwardly and with the heart to believe and receive him. This word is the word of Christ witnessing in them as Paul showed. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things unseen. Christ in you is the hope...

Now we know that the word of God came to the prophets in spirit and in their hearts but they also spoke forth that word and preached it and it was also written down in many places. The scriptures are the scriptures of truth, they are the wood written down for us. But the word must first work in the heart where a man believes. The pharisses had scripture and read them and even heard Jesus audibly and yet they did not have his word IN them. Jesus said he that is of God heareth God's words, but those who are not of God heareth them not. It was not enough to only read scripture. The word works in them that believe. Also Paul preached the word often and that was what they heard. The manifestation of the truth is what is revealed to our heats as we hear and receive the word ( 2 Cor 41-7 etc)


"18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

Here Paul answers his questions he was asking in verses 14 and 15 He says "Yes" they have heard. Then he quotes Psalm 19. The wisdom here is shown if you read the Psalm. It speaks of the word or voice and sound going through all the earth and other mysteries in that chapter. All things are held together by the word of His power. If Gods word is near all then all can hear God and find him. No matter where they are. This by no means eliminated the need of preachers and the sharing of the gospel. For this is the finished work of Christ for sinners and his resurrection from the dead this is the good news to tell all. But God is always at work and does not leave himself without witness. The outward work of Christ is connected to his inward work in the hearts and where we are planted together in the likeness of his death and burrial and resurrection. Except a corn of wheat fall in the ground and die it abideth alone, but f it dies it brings forth much fruit. The seed is the word of God sown in the hearts (Luke 8).


19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."

Again Paul goes back to the Jews here and answers the same question "Did not Israel know". In verse 18 this is a more broad question relating to all men, but here it is focused on Israel. He also speaks of the gentles and how they by faith provoke the Jews.


"20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

Now he goes back to the Gentiles, who wouldn't have had the law in most cases or even seek the Lord as he says. This shows the mystery that was working in them. They did not have outward understanding or seek the Lord. But he found them and worked in mystery in their hearts. This was also done through the preaching of the gospel that Paul preached. But God is able to save all that call upon him no matter where they are ( but only through the finished work of Jesus Christ for them in time).


21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

God has always been near them and tried to reach them even before he came in the flesh and he sought them in many ways. They do always resist the Holy Ghost as thier fathers did so do they. But God was not far from every one of them.