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The Rosary

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katholikos

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People keep talking about "vain repetition". The key word there is "vain". It was vain for the pagans to babble to false gods. It is NOT vain to pray constantly to the true God. This bogus use of this scriptutre to attack the Rosary is just dumb. As T.L. Frazier points out:



.......Paul says we are to "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17), not "pray reservedly lest we repeat ourselves" (as is inevitable in ceaseless prayer). One of the benefits of the rosary is that it leads naturally to the ceaseless prayer and meditation which Scripture enjoins upon us.

If there should be any lingering doubt that God doesn't look askance on repetition in prayer, note that in Revelation 4:8-11 we find the heavenly host engaging in repetitive prayer ("Holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty"), said "day and night" before the throne of the Almighty, followed by repetitious antiphons from the elders........

And....

........But let's look at the context of the "vain repetitions" verse. Matthew 6:5-6 deal with the prayer practices of the Jews themselves; Jesus derides these as hypocritical. He doesn't condemn repetitive Jewish prayers, of which there were a countless number. For example, the book of Psalms is a collection of hymns and prayers repeatedly used in Jewish celebrations in which Jesus himself participated. The Passover, celebrated by Jesus before his Crucifixion, had fixed prayers that were repeated annually. Following the Last Supper, Jesus went to the Garden of Gethsemane and prayed the same prayer three times in a row (Matt. 26:39-44)--he engaged in repetitive prayer.

In the next pair of verses Jesus warns against the prayer practices of the pagans, who held a magical view of prayer and whose repetitious prayers he does condemn. Verse 7 reads, in the King James Version, "[D]o not use vain repetitions [battalogeo] as the heathen do." This is a misleading rendering. The Greek word battalogeo is better translated as "babbling," and it is so translated in the New International Version. (The Revised Standard Version has "empty phrases.") [Battalogeo, which is a very rare Greek word except in writings dependent on the New Testament, is perhaps connected with the Aramaic word battal (idle, useless). Battal is used in an Aramaic papyrus from Qumran with the meaning of "without effect." The Sinaitic Syriac manuscript of Matthew renders this verse as "Do not be saying idle things."] Jesus isn't condemning mere repetition--something he himself engaged in, as did other good Jews--but the babbling of the pagans.

What sort of babbling did the pagans practice? Look at 1 Kings 18:26-29, where the pagan prophets on Mount Carmel tried to invoke Baal all day long, repeatedly calling on his name and performing ritual dances: "[They] called on the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, Oh Baal, answer us!' But there was no voice, no one answered. And they leaped about the altar which they had made. . . . And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their custom with swords and lances, until the blood gushed out of them. And as midday passed, they raved on until the time of the offering of the [evening] oblation, but there was no voice, no one answered, no one heeded." Once the pagan prophets had given up, Elijah came forward and called on the God of Israel, and immediately his prayer was answered.

The prayers of the pagan prophets were "vain" because, after spending the entire day frantically calling upon him, Baal never responded. He wasn't a real god, unlike the God of Israel, who always answers sincere prayer. Jesus' point in Matthew 6:7 is that we don't need to spend all day leaping over altars, cutting ourselves, and raving to get our heavenly Father's ear. He hears our prayers no matter what type of prayer is offered: lengthy or short, composed or extemporaneous, group or individual, repetitious or unique.

Thus Jesus says in the next verse: "Therefore do not be like them [the pagans]. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask him" (Matt. 6:8). This doesn't mean that, since God already knows our needs, we don't have to pray at all. As Jesus taught in the parable of the persistent widow (Luke 18:1-8), we are to be tenacious in prayer, freely and repeatedly (repetitiously) bringing our petition before the seat of grace.........
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katholikos

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ive always heard that vain repetition is a poor translation, that its more like vain babbling.......

The only babbling I have ever heard comes from these guys who think they are speaking in tounges when in fact they are just mumbling.
 
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Uphill Battle

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Such practices produce Saints. You see no such thing in Evangelicalism.
to be entirely fair, I think you have to acknowledge that "evangelicalism" doesn't deliniate beteen "s"aint and "S"aint.

The only babbling I have ever heard comes from these guys who think they are speaking in tounges when in fact they are just mumbling.

somebody else said it better earlier, Katholikos..... see below.

we should always guard ourselves against vain prayer. Since it's nearly impossible to know if someone else has vain intentions, it's probably best not to judge them based solely on their external appearance.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Someone asked about Orthodox prayers and what a prayer rope/chotki looks like. Here's a photo of a small one - they come with either 33, 50 or 100 knots, or monastics might use larger ones.

images


They are used when repeating the Jesus prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me (a sinner)". They are only used for counting purposes, if a person wants to pray a certain number of prayers. Otherwise they are not necessary, as we are to pray ceaselessly, and we try to keep this prayer in our hearts and minds at all times. There are no other prayers used with a prayer rope, as there are with a Rosary.

Orthodoxy has a problem with the wording of some of the prayers used in the Rosary, but mostly, we disagree with the use of mental images/meditation during prayer.

Mary
 
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Rhamiel

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Someone asked about Orthodox prayers and what a prayer rope/chotki looks like. Here's a photo of a small one - they come with either 33, 50 or 100 knots, or monastics might use larger ones.

images


They are used when repeating the Jesus prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me (a sinner)". They are only used for counting purposes, if a person wants to pray a certain number of prayers. Otherwise they are not necessary, as we are to pray ceaselessly, and we try to keep this prayer in our hearts and minds at all times. There are no other prayers used with a prayer rope, as there are with a Rosary.

Orthodoxy has a problem with the wording of some of the prayers used in the Rosary, but mostly, we disagree with the use of mental images/meditation during prayer.

Mary
i got a prayer rope from a coptic church
do muslims have something similar?
why do you have problems with meditation during prayer? is not meditating on the things of God a good thing? I am sure some Orthodox priests encourage that type of thing
 
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E.C.

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what are the differences? I've never really heard of a chotki before... but I've heard of prayer ropes. I've never ever used any such thing though, so I don't know how a prayer rope is used differently than a rosary... that I'm more familiary with because of observation, not practice.
Chotki is the Slavic word for the English "prayer rope". Same thing, different word.

Perhaps an Orthodox member could explain hesychastic prayer?
A great source for the average Joe would be the book "The Way of a Pilgrim" (or is it "the Pilgrim"?) It was written in Tsarist Russia about a man, or a pilgrim, who heard his priest deliver a homily about St. Paul's Epistle when the saint said "pray without ceasing". The pilgrim asked his priest for direction who, if I recall correctly, send the pilgrim to the nearby monastery. The pilgrim was then taught how to pray the prayer rope unceasingly and the book is about how the pilgrim lived traveling around Russia reading nothing more than his copy of the Bible and a book which his spiritual father gave him and also praying the Jesus Prayer on the prayer rope unceasingly.

A great book. Truly edifying and not that hard to find.


i got a prayer rope from a coptic church
do muslims have something similar?
why do you have problems with meditation during prayer? is not meditating on the things of God a good thing? I am sure some Orthodox priests encourage that type of thing
I don't think the Muslims have something like it.

As for the whole prayer rope vs. rosary thing, that is not something I personally could answer. My personal "beef" is the stopping between every decade, but I'm no theologian who could answer it.
 
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