The Rosary

[Kristos]

we should always guard ourselves against vain prayer. Since it's nearly impossible to know if someone else has vain intentions, it's probably best not to judge them based solely on their external appearance.

 

[simonthezealot]

What is erōtaō the greek word for?

Pray/prayer
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[Uphill Battle]

So you guys don't find formulaic prayer an abomination to our Lord?
Read the words of Isaiah

tut tut.

that removes the context.

following in the same chapter:

15When you(AH) spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
(AI) even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
(AJ) your hands are full of blood.
16(AK) Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
(AL) cease to do evil,
17learn to do good;
(AM) seek justice,
correct oppression;
(AN) bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow’s cause.

the issue is not with the repeated offerings (and in fact, the Jewish style of worship was fairly regimented) but because it was completely hypocritical.

 

[simonthezealot]

tut tut.

that removes the context.

following in the same chapter:

15When you(AH) spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
(AI) even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
(AJ) your hands are full of blood.
16(AK) Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
(AL) cease to do evil,
17learn to do good;
(AM) seek justice,
correct oppression;
(AN) bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow’s cause.

the issue is not with the repeated offerings (and in fact, the Jewish style of worship was fairly regimented) but because it was completely hypocritical.

Not the repeated but the vain formulaic (loveless) approach to it.

 

[polishbeast]

Not the repeated but the vain formulaic (loveless) approach to it.

formulaic =/= loveless

formulaic is not always vain.

the Rosary is not entirely formulaic, you also meditate on the mysteries while praying it, allowing for a different experience each time.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Not the repeated but the vain formulaic (loveless) approach to it.

that makes som might big suppositions into the spiritual disposition of someone else, doesn't it?

the Rosary for Me WOULD be in vain.... I'd probably do it by rote, and it would be worthless.

it may be very profitable for someone else. I don't know.

besides, it's hardly like this aspect is limited to the Rosary.

Lord, we give thanks for the bounty that we are about to receive, injesusnameamen.

see?

 

[Catherineanne]

What are your feelings about praying a Rosary? For me it is one of the most calming prayers to do and brings me very close to Christ. I was wondering if protestants have an issue with the Rosary they could explain why.

Higher Protestants have no problem with the Rosary. Lower ones do.

Why? Mostly because lower churches are not too keen on anything which focuses on Mary, and takes attention off Our Lord. Higher churches are happy to respect both.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I get what you're saying Catherineanne.

I've always hated the "Higher" and "lower" church distinctions though. Almost like a religious "back of the bus" mentality. dont' get me wrong I'm not picking on you about it... just it irks me every time I see it...

 

[Catherineanne]

The vain repetition thing to me brings to mind something I heard about an asian nation (I really don't remember which, but I think it's Korean) having a machine. The person writes a prayer, and then tacks it on to a cylinder. they spin the handle, the prayer goes round and round. they believe that every time it faces up, the prayer goes to heaven.

taht's the kind of pagan prayers that it brings to mind for me.

What you are describing is a Buddhist prayer wheel. I think it is rather bizarre to call it a vain repetition; who says that Buddhist prayers are not heard? The Bible certainly makes no such assertion.

Tibetan Prayer Wheel - Buddhist Things - ReligionFacts

 

[Catherineanne]

I get what you're saying Catherineanne.

I've always hated the "Higher" and "lower" church distinctions though. Almost like a religious "back of the bus" mentality. dont' get me wrong I'm not picking on you about it... just it irks me every time I see it...

I understand but it doesn't bother me. It is just a description, like a compass reference. It is pointless trying to say we are all the same when the two differ in pretty well every aspect of theology and worship.

 

[simonthezealot]

What you are describing is a Buddhist prayer wheel. I think it is rather bizarre to call it a vain repetition; who says that Buddhist prayers are not heard? The Bible certainly makes no such assertion.

Tibetan Prayer Wheel - Buddhist Things - ReligionFacts

Who would they be heard by buddhist prayer is about into oneself.

 

[Catherineanne]

Who would they be heard by buddhist prayer is about into oneself.

Anyone who is listening, I assume.

 

[Uphill Battle]

What you are describing is a Buddhist prayer wheel. I think it is rather bizarre to call it a vain repetition; who says that Buddhist prayers are not heard? The Bible certainly makes no such assertion.

Tibetan Prayer Wheel - Buddhist Things - ReligionFacts

I don't know... the image I saw of a guy reading a magazine while spinning the wheel brought to mind vain repetition.

I understand but it doesn't bother me. It is just a description, like a compass reference. It is pointless trying to say we are all the same when the two differ in pretty well every aspect of theology and worship.

"Kraut" is a descriptive word for a German. "frog" is a descriptive term for a frenchman. etcetera etceterea.

"High" and "low" describe more than just a difference in aspects, IMO. I take it you are "high" church?

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't know... the image I saw of a guy reading a magazine while spinning the wheel brought to mind vain repetition.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

"Kraut" is a descriptive word for a German. "frog" is a descriptive term for a frenchman. etcetera etceterea.

Those are not descriptives but perjoratives. High and low are not perjorative, but descriptive. Well, they are to me, anyway. No value judgement included.

"High" and "low" describe more than just a difference in aspects, IMO. I take it you are "high" church?

I am indeed high church, or Anglo Catholic if you prefer. How did you guess?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Judge not lest ye be judged.

true enough.

I guess I'm just looking at it in the context of Christian prayer... whether or not THAT would be considered vain repetition... if a Christian did it. I don't know what is in the persons heart... just visually offputting.

Those are not descriptives but perjoratives. High and low are not perjorative, but descriptive. Well, they are to me, anyway. No value judgement included.

true... but I'm betting some in the "low" church don't see it the same way. and I'm not ascribing motive to those who use it. I'm just expressing how it "sounds" to me, that's all!

[/quote]
I am indeed high church, or Anglo Catholic if you prefer. How did you guess? [/quote]
instinct.

thanks for replying!

 

[Catherineanne]

true enough.

I guess I'm just looking at it in the context of Christian prayer... whether or not THAT would be considered vain repetition... if a Christian did it. I don't know what is in the persons heart... just visually offputting.

Not only do we not know what is in their heart, we also don't know what was in that magazine.

true... but I'm betting some in the "low" church don't see it the same way. and I'm not ascribing motive to those who use it. I'm just expressing how it "sounds" to me, that's all!

Given that they have no aspiration whatever to be high, and regard low as the only possible way to be, it is unlikely that they think that 'low' equates to a perjorative term. I know it sounds hierarchical, but it isn't at all. No more than left and right when talking about politics.

Remember 'Methodist' and 'Quaker' both started out as perjoratives, but the people they were applied to declined to take offence, and instead embraced those terms for themselves. We have to choose to feel belittled, in other words. A low church person might choose to try to call me high as a term of contempt. But if I say in response, 'thank you very much; that is most kind', then they do not succeed. We don't have to let other people control our emotional responses, in other words.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What are your feelings about praying a Rosary? For me it is one of the most calming prayers to do and brings me very close to Christ. I was wondering if protestants have an issue with the Rosary they could explain why. Here all the prayers used for the Rosary:

Prayers of the Rosary
Sign Of The Cross
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
The Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Spirit. born of the Virgin Mary,He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; he ascended into Heaven sits at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting, Amen.
Our Father
Our Father, who art in Heaven; hallowed by Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Amen
Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of god, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen
Glory Be
Glory be to the Father, to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end, Amen.
O My Jesus
O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of your Mercy. Amen.
Hail, Holy Queen
Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee we cry, poor banished children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us,
And after this our exile, show unto us the blessed Fruit of they womb, Jesus.
O clement. O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


Mysteries of the Rosary
The Joyful Mysteries
Said on Mondays and Saturdays.

1. The Annunciation (Humility) Luke 1:26-38
   The Angel Gabriel appears to Mary, announcing she is to be the Mother of God
2. The Visitation (Charity) Luke 1:39-56
   Elizabeth greets Mary: "Blessed art Thou amoung women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb!"
3. The Nativity (Poverty) Luke 2:1-20
   The Virgin Mary gives birth to the Redeemer of the World.
4. The Presentation (Obedience) Luke 2:22-39
   The Blessed Mother presents the Child Jesus in the Temple
5. Finding in the Temple (Piety) Luke 2:42-52
   The Blessed Mother finds Jesus in the Temple.

The Luminous Mysteries John 8:12
Said on Thursdays.

1. The Baptism of Christ in the Jordan John 1:29-34
   The heavens open wide and the voice of the Father declares Jesus the beloved Son
2. The Wedding Feast at Cana John 2:1-11
   The first of the signs, when Christ changes water into wine and opens the hearts of the disciples to faith, thanks to the intervention of Mary, the first among believers.
3. The Announcement of the Kingdom Matthew 4:17
   Jesus proclaims the coming of the Kingdom of God, calls us to conversion and forgives the sins of all who draw near to Him in humble trust.
4. The Transfiguration Matthew 17:1-8
   The glory of the Godhead shines forth from the face of Christ as the Father commands the astonished Apostles to "listen to him."
5. The Institution of the Eucharist (food for our salvation) Matthew 26:26-30
   Christ offers his body and blood as food under the signs of bread and wine, and testifies "to the end" His love for humanity, for whose salvation He will offer Himself in sacrifice.

The Sorrowful Mysteries
Said on Tuesdays and Fridays.

1. The Agony in the Garden (Contrition) Luke 22:39-44
   At Gethsemane, Jesus prays as He contemplates the sins of the world.
2. The Scourging at the Pillar (Purity) Matthew 27:26
   Jesus is cruelly scourged until His mortified body could bear no more.
3. Crowning with Thorns (Courage) Matthew 27:28-31
   A crown of thorns is placed on the head of Jesus.
4. Carrying of the Cross (Patience) Luke 23:26-32
   Jesus carries the heavy cross upon His shoulders to Calvary.
5. The Crucifixion (Self-Denial) Matthew 27:33-50
   Jesus is nailed to the cross and dies after hours of agony.

The Glorious Mysteries
Said on Wednesdays and Sundays.

1. The Resurrection (Faith) Matthew 28:1-20
   Jesus rises glorious and immortal, three days after His death.
2. The Ascension (Hope) Luke 24:50-51
   Jesus ascends into Heaven forty days after His Resurrection.
3. Descent of the Holy Spirit (Love) Acts 2:24
   The Holy Spirit descends upon Mary and the Apostles.
4. The Assumption (Eternal Happiness)
   The Blessed Mother is united with her Divine Son in Heaven.
5. The Coronation (Devotion to Mary)
   Mary is gloriously crowned Queen of Heaven and earth.

(Note: words embolden and in red font are not original but are mine)


I have a beautiful Rosary, and I have said it many times. I've even taught it to others - both Protestant and Catholic.

My "issues" with it are two-fold:

1. The red embolden words in the quote above; all post 1521 additions.

2. This is just a PERSONAL thing, but the mere repetition of it makes me zone out - and thus excludes any blessings. When I did it, it would take a LOT to stay focused. I have the same criticism with some contemporary Christian songs ("Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord, Yes, Yes, Yes" repeated 4,672,356 times!). But that's just me; hey, if it blesses you - go for it.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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[Polycarp1]

(Note: words embolden and in red font are not original but are mine)


I have a beautiful Rosary, and I have said it many times. I've even taught it to others - both Protestant and Catholic.

My "issues" with it are two-fold:

1. The red embolden words in the quote above; all post 1521 additions.

2. This is just a PERSONAL thing, but the mere repetition of it makes me zone out - and thus excludes any blessings. When I did it, it would take a LOT to stay focused. I have the same criticism with some contemporary Christian songs ("Yes, Lord, Yes, Lord, Yes, Yes, Yes" repeated 4,672,356 times!). But that's just me; hey, if it blesses you - go for it.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

The Ave Regina (and the O My Jesus as well) is a part I've never encountered, even in Catholic writings.

Beyond that, it's always been my understanding that the repetivitve-prayer part of the Rosary is to keep what C.S. Lewis called 'the voluble self' in prayer while the conscious focus is on the Mysteries. Focusing on repetitive prayer is contrary to the purpose of the Rosary.

 

[jckstraw72]

ive always heard that vain repetition is a poor translation, that its more like vain babbling. and there is no difference between praise and prayer -- they are both communication with God -- that is an arbitrary line to draw just so you can attack the Rosary. The Psalms are very repetitive, and the Psalms have been the prayerbook of Judaism and Christianity for millenia -- i suppose thats a loveless formula, but looking at the fruits of those who have memorized and ceaselessly prayed the Psalms and other practices like the Jesus Prayer or the Rosary, ill side with them. Such practices produce Saints. You see no such thing in Evangelicalism.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

ive always heard that vain repetition is a poor translation, that its more like vain babbling. and there is no difference between praise and prayer -- they are both communication with God -- that is an arbitrary line to draw just so you can attack the Rosary. The Psalms are very repetitive, and the Psalms have been the prayerbook of Judaism and Christianity for millenia -- i suppose thats a loveless formula, but looking at the fruits of those who have memorized and ceaselessly prayed the Psalms and other practices like the Jesus Prayer or the Rosary, ill side with them. Such practices produce Saints. You see no such thing in Evangelicalism.

I've heard all the Catholic "responses" to the repetition issue. I "see" its point. And there's some validity. As I noted, it's a PERSONAL issue - it keeps it from being a blessing to ME. And it's FAR from limited to the Rosary (again, I have the SAME "issue" with some Contemporary Protestant songs, for example).

My "issue" is with the view of Mary in it as I highlighted in embolden, red font. That deleted, I'm more than fine with it.


BTW, way back when I was in my homeschool group for High School, I did that through a large Baptist school. Of those in my HS group there, all homeschoolers, probably 90% were of a fundamentalist, pentecostal or evangelical bent. The two leaders of our group were both Baptists (one a minsiter). Anyway, everyone knew I was pretty active in the RCC and increasingly labeling myself as "Catholic" and so I started to get some questions and stuff. ONE of them was about the Rosary. I mentioned I had one and had used it - which caused a bit of a silence in the room. Anyway, I asked if they wanted me to bring it and show them how it works, and the BAPTIST MINISTER said that sounded like a good idea. So, I did. Now, unlike my new community - Lutherans, they were unfamiliar with the Creed and things, but still, the response was mostly, "Wow - that's like from the Bible!" Yes, their "issue" was entirely the same as mine: the stuff about Mary. As I shared with them, all taht was actually added after the RCC kicked Luther out and Lutherans, Anglicans and others continued it in the pre-Trent form for some time. They were totally okay with that.




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