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The Romans 13 questions

Iconoclaust

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Romans 13 teaches that we should not resist the authorities. It seems that the only qualification for being an authority is and always been a monopoly of force and violence. And what do we do if the authority does the opposite of what it was meant to do, namely “to reward the good and to punish the evil”?
And also, what if one authority resists another authority, which side should I pick?
This is not a flood or trolling, these are the questions that shake my faith.
 

dreadnought

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I have a problem with what Paul tells us to do once in a while. What if Adolf Hitler had lived and told us to kill all the Jews? I don't have this problem with the teachings of Jesus, though.
 
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Iconoclaust

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I have a problem with what Paul tells us to do once in a while. What if Adolf Hitler had lived and told us to kill all the Jews? I don't have this problem with the teachings of Jesus, though.

I believe that the word “resist” in the context means violent resistance, not the ideological, non-violent resistance. In other place, Paul encourages us to expose the deeds of darkness, which in a sense is a resistance.
Besides, Jesus resisted the authorities. So we should be doing it at our own risk.
 
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1 John 4:1

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Romans 13 refers to church/synagogue leaders according to Mark D. Nanos in "The Mystery of Romans" (read Eusebius about the martyrdom of James where there were many Jews who believed in Christ and were at the temple to celebrate the Passover) The Jews and Christians shared the synagogues because Christianity was just considered a sect of Judaism. (early on) The synagogues could collect taxes and punish transgressions of the law in many parts of the Roman empire. This may have been the case in Judea too Mark 12:12 (notice it says they feared the "crowd" not the "Romans") also they seemed to originally be trying to kill him themselves: Luke 4:28-29, John 5:18, Mark 11:18, John 7:1

Romans 13 ". . .the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God. . ." (NKJV) relates to Matthew 18:18 "what you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" and the surrounding verses which talk of the authority of the community and leaders thereof to enforce God's law and forgive transgressions of God's law. This is in stark contrast to the secular authorities which are in fact mentioned in 1 Peter 2:13 "Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme," (NKJV) or "13 Be subject, then, to every human creation, because of the Lord, whether to a king, as the highest," (YLT)

In my opinion, we should obey secular authorities that in general uphold good and punish evil as it says in 1 Peter 2:14 "or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good." A violent revolution generally brings chaos and does not do this but there are other ways to resist peacefully like Gandhi and MLK did.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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What if I am paying taxes knowing that they fund murder and destruction?

is the government saying up front that all your tax dollars will go to such actions?
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I have a problem with what Paul tells us to do once in a while. What if Adolf Hitler had lived and told us to kill all the Jews? I don't have this problem with the teachings of Jesus, though.

murder is a sin so you don't obey that command.

Jesus told you to give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's.
 
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JIMINZ

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What if I am paying taxes knowing that they fund murder and destruction?

.
Then stop paying taxes, or earmark your taxes to only go for good things.
 
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dreadnought

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murder is a sin so you don't obey that command.

Jesus told you to give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's.
I guess the debate is whether or not to give Caesar what he wants, if Caesar asks for something that is not his.
 
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1 John 4:1

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murder is a sin so you don't obey that command.

Jesus told you to give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's.

So I'm not arguing that what I suspect Jesus said then about taxes is applicable to our situation today since the Herodians were different (and worse) than our government. Herod was actually divinely executed for starting to accept that he was God (an anti-Christ) in Acts 12:22-23. Here's some other evidence I think shows people have misread "give unto Ceasar":

The Herodians were the political party of Herod the king and favored submitting to Herod and to Rome, hence it is interesting that they brought that group in order to trap him:
15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians. . .
(Matthew 22)

Luke's version is even more clear:
20 So they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, in order that they might catch Him in some statement, so that they could deliver Him to the rule and the authority of the governor. 21 They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, we know that You speak and teach correctly, and You are not partial to any, but teach the way of God in truth. 22 “Is it lawful for us to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”
(Luke 20)

An unorthodox reading of Christ's responses can be made in light of Deuteronomy 10:14 which says "Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it." and Genesis 1:27 which states "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

"And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” . . . “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”" (Matthew 22:20-21)

Here's how I think the inscription connects:
"But what did the inscription say? On the front, the coin said “Tiberius Caesar, son of the divine Augustus.” The reverse side of the coin read “Greatest Priest.” But that is how it was inscribed in Latin. In Greek, Tiberius coins and inscriptions read theou huios (“son of the god”). Note with special emphasis that Tiberius put the word “god” before the word “son” in his inscriptions and coins."
Son of God in Roman World – Christian Monthly Standard
"son of" can mean "in the nature of", or "in the image of" e.g. Colossians 1:15

Add on to this that Jesus had charges of opposing the payment of taxes: Luke 23:2 and that he says to shun tax collectors: Matthew 18:17 and you can see why you might read Jesus as saying cryptically not to pay taxes. (cryptically because the Herodians were there and he didn't want to get killed just yet) However, this must not be used to negate: 1 Peter 2:13-25 for those rulers who "punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good" I think this holds for most governments in general (especially given the alternatives) even though there are a lot of problems in the world.
 
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JIMINZ

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Sorry to disappoint, but your definition is wrong, look up the definition in the Strongs, it's a Greek word not an English one, the beginning numbers are in context of the verse in question.

Rom. 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth (G498) the power,
resisteth (G436) the ordinance of God: and they that resist (G436) shall receive to themselves damnation.
 
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bcbsr

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When it comes to human authorities, whether it be parents over children, husband over wife, or civil authorities over citizens, all human authority have a limited realm of authority outside of which they are acting illegitimately. The scriptures, along with wisdom, give the sense of such limits. And we have the examples of Jesus and his apostles dealing with human authority figures.
 
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Radagast

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Remember that the "authority" Paul was talking about was the evil Emperor Nero. Even so, Paul said "obey authority."

Of course, Jesus also said “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17). Historically, the Church drew the line on obedience when the Emperors said "worship me," because worship is something that belongs only to God.
 
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AvgJoe

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Question: "What does the Bible say about government?"

Answer:
The Bible speaks very clearly about the relationship between the believer and the government. We are to obey governmental authorities, and the government is to treat us justly and fairly. Even when the government does not live up to its role, we are still to live up to ours. Finally, when the government asks us to do something that is in direct disobedience to God’s Word, we are to disobey the government in faithful confidence of the Lord’s power to protect us.

Whether the Bible uses the terms “master,” “ruler,” “government,” or any other name for an established authority, the instruction is always the same – obey. We must remember that God created the authorities ruling over us just as He created us. As Paul wrote to the Romans, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves” (Romans 13:1-2). Peter wrote, “Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right” (1 Peter 2:13-14). Both Peter and Paul also remind slaves repeatedly to be obedient to their masters for the same reasons (Ephesians 6:5-8; Colossians 3:22-25; 1 Timothy 6:1-2; 1 Peter 2:18-20; Titus 2:9-11).

The instructions to government “masters” are just as clear and just as numerous. Jesus modeled the behavior and attitude every leader or authority should take. “Jesus called them together and said, ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many’” (Matthew 20:25-28). A government or authority exists to serve those governed.

Many times, however, a government will stray from its purpose and become oppressive. When that happens, we are still to live in obedience. “Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God” (1 Peter 2:18-19). Both Jesus and Paul used taxes as a way to illustrate this. The Roman government taxed the Jews unjustly and many of the tax collectors were thieves. When asked about this dilemma, Jesus took a coin and said, “‘Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?’ ‘Caesar's,’ they replied. Then he said to them, ‘Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's’” (Matthew 22:20-21). Evidently, the believers in Rome were still asking the same question because Paul instructed them on the matter. “This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing” (Romans 13:6).

In the Old Testament, Daniel is a model we should use when it comes to our relationship with government. The Babylonians were given authority over the Jews because of the Jews’ disobedience. Daniel worked himself into the highest levels of this pagan and unbelieving government. Although the rulers respected Daniel’s God, their lives and actions show they did not believe. Daniel served the king as a true servant when he requested the wise men not be executed for failing to interpret the king’s dream. Instead, he asked for the key to interpret the dream from God and saved those, including himself, who would have been executed. While Daniel was in the royal court, his three friends refused to bow to the idol erected by King Nebuchadnezzar and were sentenced to death in the furnace (Daniel 3:12-15). Their response was confident faith. They did not defend themselves, but instead told the king their God would save them, adding that even if He didn’t, they still would not worship or serve Nebuchadnezzar’s gods (Daniel 3:16-18).

After the Medes conquered Babylon, Daniel continued to serve faithfully and to rise in power within the government. Here, Daniel faced the same dilemma when the governors and satraps tricked the king into signing a decree “…that whoever petitions any god or man for thirty days, except you, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions” (Daniel 6:7). Daniel responded by directly, and in full view of everyone, disobeying the order. “Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went home. And in his upper room, with his windows open toward Jerusalem, he knelt down on his knees three times that day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as was his custom since early days” (Daniel 6:10). Daniel was completely loyal to any ruler placed over him until that ruler ordered him to disobey God. At that moment, when a choice had to be made between the world and God, Daniel chose God. As should we all.

www.gotquestions.org/Bible-government.html
 
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marineimaging

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That we are governed by man is good. God says so. As long as the government is in keeping with God's ways we are to not resist authority but remember that this government in the USA also gets its authority and power from the Constitution. Yes, who is in the power seat is also decided by God because He and He alone will decide who sits there. This is also saying that people being governed is good so don't try to destroy that which God has ordained. On the other hand we are not to live in anarchy. That is of the devil.
 
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Davarr

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Greetings:
This argument requires a contextual understanding of to whom Paul is speaking. He is addressing the Church in this epistle. This is not a political tocsin; rather, it is an abjuration to abide with patience the fallen, corrupted governments of man, for the sake of the Gospel. It is obviously not meant as an endorsement of human government, since these invariably are infected with darkness. No reasoning person would ever write 'rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior', when the State has murdered a half a billion people in the 20th century alone.
Rather, Paul is telling us, the Regenerate, to behave as though the state was just. Yahweh did accord government, and authority, as right. But no man can ever use these without corruption, should his brush with the Ring of Power be to prolonged. Tolkein's work still resonates with us, as the narrative of the Ring still speaks to the human condition flawlessly. Despite the terror of the State, we are required to obey what is legitimate.
This brings up asymptotes of behavior if the State must be opposed. Deitrich Bonhoffer tried to assassinate his elected leader, Adolf Hitler. His purpose was to end the Fuhrer's reign of darkness. So, was he right or wrong? It was unlawful to commit this act-but his desire was to do good. David did the same in eating the bread; it was unlawful, but it was pardoned for his heart being right. I suggest that Deitrich was both: he was hanged at Flossen for his transgressions, which is right; he tried to save the weak from the deformed, which is also right.
The subject of obedience to government is insanely complex; this arpeggiates sharply in a democratic form, where citizens have rights and responsibilities. It is therefore useful to regard this passage as a guideline for our behavior, not as an absolute truth. This is what Jesus commands of us, to show we are slaves in obedience to Him. While it is terrifying to watch what limitless horrors man has crafted when in the possession of power, government itself is not to blame. In the next universe (and for the last 1000 years of this one), we will see government by a righteous monarch, whch Aristotle advised was the perfect government. Until then, we must dolefully abide the vices of the Gollums who discard decency at every turn to hold for a moment their Precious, and wait for a better tomorrow.
 
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marineimaging

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Isn't it also our God who instructs us to care for the widows and to be wise and discerning and exercise authority when it comes to evil men? Aren't we to rebuke each other in love, to support each other on behalf of being Christian converts, to live in accord and peace. So, if we were to take a stand against an evil government aren't we doing "...unto God's what is God's?" Here is what I am getting at. Our founders set up a Constitutional Republic and defined our laws with an expectation that we would continue this government "until Kingdom Comes". When asked about how we should address certain issues why is it we continually go back to those same chapters and verses? Because that is what we know? What we were taught? But I have come to learn that the entire Bible is God's word and God's will, not just a few chapters and verses here and there. The entire Bible should be taken into consideration when answering a question of this magnitude. In our Bible good and evil are clearly defined and clearly declared. So if any official(s) in America, elected or appointed, are participating in or allowing the destruction of our Constitution then we citizens have a duty to repair that breach of trust. First at the voting booth and if that does not do it, then in the courts and if that does not settle it, then we are right in our fight if that is what it takes. I am not talking about any other government in this case. I am talking about the American government and our Constitutional Republic.
 
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