CreedIsChrist
Well-Known Member
Actually most teachings have a connection to Dogma that gives them weight.
Not throwing it down the drain, I am disagreeing with your interpretation of it. I'll ignore the insult at the end there.
She was not talking about it in the sense of what Pius X condemned.
Helen was not saying it in the heretical fashion but in full agreement with how the Church see it. To quote Ott:and I do not disagree with that I disagree with you mandating an expression of it that goes against the Magisterium of the Church as She talks about how to live that in today's realities in union with eternal truth.
The exposition of the dogmas in the given sense is prepared by theological science and promulgated by the Teaching Authority of the Church under the direction of the Holy Ghost (John 14, 26). These new expositions of dogmatic truth are motivated, on the one hand, by the natural striving of man for deeper understanding of Revealed Truth, and on the other hand by external influences, such as the attacks arising from heresy and unbelief, theological controversies, advances in philosophical knowledge and historical research, development of the liturgy, and the general assertion of Faith expressed therein.
- b) As to the Formal side of dogma, that is, in the knowledge and in the ecclesiastical proposal of Revealed Truth, and consequently also in the public faith of the Church, there is a progress (accidental development of dogmas) which occurs in the following fashion:
- 1) Truths which formerly were only implicitly believed are expressly proposed for belief. (Cf. S. th. I; II, 1, 7 : quantum ad explicationem crevt numerus articulorum (fidei), quia quaedam explicite cognita sunt a posterioribus, quae a prioribus non cognoscebantur explicite. There was an increase in the number of articles believed explicitly since to those who lived in later times some were known explicitly, which were not known explicitly by those who lived before them.)
2) Material Dogmas are raised to the status of Formal Dogmas.
3) To facilitate general understanding, and to avoid misunderstandings and distortions, the ancient truths which were always believed, e.g., the Hypostatic Union (unio hypostatica), Transubstantiation, etc., are formulated in new, sharply defined concepts.
4) Questions formerly disputed are explained and decided, and heretical propositions are condemned. Cf. St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 2, 1 ; ab adversario mota quaestio discendi existit occasio (a question moved by an adversary gives an occasion for learning).
Even the Fathers stress the necessity of deeper research into the truths of Revelation, of clearing up obscurities, and of developing the teachings of Revelation. Cf. the classical testimony of St. Vincent Lerin († before 450). "But perhaps someone says: Will there then be no progress in the religion of Christ? Certainly there should be, even a great and rich progress . . . only, it must in truth be a progress in Faith and not an alteration of Faith. For progress it is necessary that something should increase of itself, for alteration, however, that something should change from one thing to the other." (Commonitorium 23.) Cf. D 1800.
Conditions making for a true progress in the knowledge of Faith by individual persons are, according to the declaration of the Vatican Council, zeal, reverence and moderation: cum sedule, pie et sobrie quaerit. 1) 1796.
- 5) There may be also a progress in the confession of faith of the individual believer through the extension and deepening of his theological knowledge. The basis for the possibility of this progress lies in the depth of the truths of Faith on the one hand, and on the other in the varying capacity for perfection of the human reason.
Ok, so to cut through all of what has passed in this thread. I have an honest and well intended friendly proposal for you.
This site has, from time to time, has a debate area. Although never in OBOB. But the ability exists.
I think this subject would be better addressed if, as brothers in Christ you and I had a formal debate on it.
We could have a mod change a thread to moderated thread. That means no posts can be made in it that are not approved. So only you and I can post in it. We each get an opening post and three rebuttals and each a closing statement.
No one posts in it but us, you and I as brothers set the rules and tone.
your view (feel free to correct me): The Dogma of Natural Law limits proper expression of the headship of men over women to the expression I will describe.
My view: Since the expression of headship is a matter of prudential judgment there can be many expressions, including ones that go beyond the opposing description as long as they remain faithful to the teaching of the Magisterium; which I will illustrate they do.
This way we could examine the full realm of the discussion in depth. In such cases there is also a comment thread running that all may contribute to.
We can tweek the formal statement of our positions in any way you want as long as they reflect succinctly our basic point...work together on it and set a date to start and rules.
Or we can continue here and let people weed through hundreds of posts, many lacking charity. In my opinion Creed this whole thing needs to be started on a better foot with some respect and charity between us so we can have a discussion as brothers speaking in logic and charity to each other in pursuit of truth and not as adversaries sniping at each other. We can chose to be an example of the best in each of us rather than let what has passed determine our actions toward each other in this discussion. My thought is it is best served in some structured manner.
Ok, I agree to that, and much prefer it actually since my posts get too much ad-hominem replies or misinterpretations.
My view : The conjugal headship of husband and how scripture, tradition, ECF, saints, councils, summa theologica, and most of Church history support the position of hegemony in marriage and how its ingrained in the dogma of the Church, oral tradition, and Gods natural law. And that the egalitarian view is contrary to God's natural law in his ordinances regarding marriage and the fall ..
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