The role of a woman

[Jesus_Freak4]

This subject was brought up at my youth discussion group the other night. It is interesting to note that this is an all male group.

With this aid of this verse: "I do not permit a woman to teach of to have authority over a man; she must be silent" (1 Timothy 2:12), a friend of mine brought up the issue of whether a woman should be able to preach to men.

I'm not sure where I stand - there are other verses. The fact is that I have heard many woman speakers, and have found most of them to be pretty good - it's not that they can't preach.

Thoughts on the issue?

 

[Crazy Liz]

A question about the same scripture was brought up in another thread recently. This particular verse is one that has been the focus of very little scholarly research, considering the seriousness of disqualifying half of all Christians from teaching in church. Fortunately, Catherine Kroeger has done a great dealof research on this passage. You can read an introduction to her research at http://www.godswordtowomen.org/kroeger.htm.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

If you want to you can find excuses in scripture for just about any bad behavior, rationalize it's for a 'higher good' etc., and instintutionalized sexism is no different.

 

[jbarcher]

Here is something from John MacArthur,

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/womensroles.htm

There are 14 of his sermons http://www.biblebb.com/mac-h-z.htm as well.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

sss: any background available on this MacArthur? What denomination is he?

The summary sentence of his position in the article is this one:

"Equality of being before God does not require the elimination of all role distinctions in society. Equality of being does not rule out authority and submission in relationships. We could point to many examples of relationships in which there is equality and yet a difference in roles involving authority and submission--the Trinity, the President and U. S. citizens, parents and children, employers and employees, Elders and church members."

When he says "Equality of being before God does not require the elimination of all role distinctions in society." that may or may not be so semantically, but if it is is true, the corollary is also true: Adhering to God's will in this mortal life does not necessarily require adherence to artificial 'role distinctions' either.

He also says: "Equality of being does not rule out authority and submission in relationships." Again, only half right if at all: Adherence to God's authority does not require submission to other mortals nor acknowledgement of any authority of them, either.

He goes on: "We could point to many examples of relationships in which there is equality and yet a difference in roles involving authority and submission--the Trinity..."

Well, the Trinity is an abstract concept in which we are not a part and we do not submit or have others submit to us, so this is an irrelevancy at best.

"...the President and U. S. citizens..."

The President has a constitutional role. He is Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces and has other significant authority per the Constitution and Executive Orders but he himself must submit to Congress and the Courts where there is not mutual consent for his exercise of authority. We offer respect for the President out of tradition but should one exceed our consent to his exercise of authority he is subject to removal to office, as Abraham Lincoln said "Either by our constitutional right to change the holder of the office or our revolutionary right to overthrow him" the latter which was as the government of Georgia (the former Soviet Republic, not the Peachtree State) was done yesterday.

"...parents and children..." Again while this is no doubt true for the most part there are limitations. Parents are subject to criminal penalties and loss of custody for child abuse. But the relationship between men and women cannot in any form be compared to that of parent and child in a society in which each adult individual is respected.

"...employers and employees, Elders and church members."

The last two describe voluntary relationships which can be dissolved when consent to the authority therin is withdrawn.

In all he appears to be grasping at straws to justify a sexist position and failing at it.

 

[tcampen]

Did Jesus ever say women could not preach to men? I don't think so. Paul was pretty darn sexist, had a lot of hang ups about women for whatever reason. While Paul may have been inpsired to write a few letters and preach the good news, he wasn't perfect, and there's no objective reason to believe is own personal shortcomings didn't infiltrate his writings.

 

[water_ripple]

KJV Acts 2:17-21 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAITH GOD, I WILL POUR OUR OF MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH: AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS: (18) AND ON MY SERVANTS AND ON MY HANDMAIDENS I WILL POUR OUR IN THOSE DAYS OF MY SPIRIT; AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY: (19) AND I WILL SHEW WONDERS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, AND SIGNS IN THE EARTH BENEATH; BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOUR OF SMOKE: (20) THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME: (21) AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

I continually wonder Y handmaidens of God are reminded to be silent.

 

[Valkyr]

The limited role of women in the church and the sexist views still held by many christians (particularly catholics) has alienated most of my female friends from religion in general.

 

[Calvanist]

Dear Friends

I appreciate all your opinions posted on this forum, some of them were very interesting! Permit me to put down a few verses here before I start. All these talk about Paul and his apostleship.

"for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth"

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus"

"Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Paul completely and fully filled with the Holy Spirit. All His words were written under inspiration of the Holy Ghost. God would not let the falliable, pathetic opinions of man into the Bible. Yes, Paul was still a sinner, but all the words he wrote were under inspiration. As soon as we say that "Paul may have been inpsired to write a few letters and preach the good news, he wasn't perfect, and there's no objective reason to believe is own personal shortcomings didn't infiltrate his writings." The entire New Testament and the pillars of what we believe automatiaclly become obselete. We can trust and be completely assured that everything the was written, whether Paul, or Peter, or Moses, or Isaiah is absolutly trustworthy.

As to the role of women? The Word of God is clear:

"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

No, Paul is not sexist, he is only writing what God told Him to write.Like it or not, women are NOT permitted to preach or teach over a man. God knows how a church should be run, we are not in a position to accept some of His words, and not the rest.

Anyway, just consider what the Bible says, I don't care if you reject my opinions.

In Christ
Ben

 

[water_ripple]

Dear Friends

I appreciate all your opinions posted on this forum, some of them were very interesting! Permit me to put down a few verses here before I start. All these talk about Paul and his apostleship.

"for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth"

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus"

"Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Paul completely and fully filled with the Holy Spirit. All His words were written under inspiration of the Holy Ghost. God would not let the falliable, pathetic opinions of man into the Bible. Yes, Paul was still a sinner, but all the words he wrote were under inspiration. As soon as we say that "Paul may have been inpsired to write a few letters and preach the good news, he wasn't perfect, and there's no objective reason to believe is own personal shortcomings didn't infiltrate his writings." The entire New Testament and the pillars of what we believe automatiaclly become obselete. We can trust and be completely assured that everything the was written, whether Paul, or Peter, or Moses, or Isaiah is absolutly trustworthy.

As to the role of women? The Word of God is clear:

"And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

No, Paul is not sexist, he is only writing what God told Him to write.Like it or not, women are NOT permitted to preach or teach over a man. God knows how a church should be run, we are not in a position to accept some of His words, and not the rest.

Anyway, just consider what the Bible says, I don't care if you reject my opinions.

In Christ
Ben

KJV Acts 2:17-21 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAITH GOD, I WILL POUR OUR OF MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH: AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS: (18) AND ON MY SERVANTS AND ON MY HANDMAIDENS I WILL POUR OUR IN THOSE DAYS OF MY SPIRIT; AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY: (19) AND I WILL SHEW WONDERS IN HEAVEN ABOVE, AND SIGNS IN THE EARTH BENEATH; BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOUR OF SMOKE: (20) THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME: (21) AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

This word of the prophets was before Paul's letters. It speaks of the end of days. Women like men will become filled with the Holy Spirit in the end of days. To always reject the idea of a woman being filled with the Holy Spirit, and to remain in silence just might be silencing the word of God as well. Do I think Paul was mislead? No I do not, but one cannot ignore the fact that the days for women being as full of the Holy Spirit as men are coming. They may well be here today. Not only will our sons prophesy, but our daughters as well. It will come to pass rather people are ready for this or not. Not by my words or something I've simply dreamed up, but yes even us women are capable of the same relationship with God (in it's entirity) as men.

Christ Himself told his apostles when they questioned the motives of the woman who was annointing Him with expensive oil..Can you not see she does this as a gift for me? Women of God do things for God only because they love Him, and as a gift. Do not worry though we will not try and upset the patriarch, but the time is comming for us to prophesy as well. You will know us by more than mere words. The situation of the soul is always revealed.

 

[Calvanist]

Well, I appreciate your response, I also appreciate you doing it without anger or sarcasm!

I did not say anything about prophesying though, I believe that women prophesying is Biblical. Look at Phlip's four daughters! I was talking about women having authority over men in the church. Preaching and teaching.

 

[secretdawn]

Ok...let me start by saying that I am new, so I know I could be way off base here, but...
Aren't there women in the bible that did teach?

Also, though a bit off topic, I thought we are equal, but different. Women submit to men, men love their women like Christ loves the church, or something like that. Doesn't that mean, because a man loves their wife so much and so unconditionally (like Christ and the church), women want to do things to make their men happy. Sort of like a give and take type thing...

 

[wonder111]

Ok...let me start by saying that I am new, so I know I could be way off base here, but...
Aren't there women in the bible that did teach?

Also, though a bit off topic, I thought we are equal, but different. Women submit to men, men love their women like Christ loves the church, or something like that. Doesn't that mean, because a man loves their wife so much and so unconditionally (like Christ and the church), women want to do things to make their men happy. Sort of like a give and take type thing...

unfortunately, some people interpret this to mean a boss employee type relationship. I've seen it in some relationships, very sad

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Paul is not sexist, he is only writing what God told Him to write.

Given that many denominations ordain female clergy, many Christians disagree with you. You have a right to your beliefs; but others also have a right to say to women who would attend a church that believes as you do that there are other options besides being treated as a second-class citizen.

 

[Calvanist]

"Given that many denominations ordain female clergy, many Christians disagree with you."

Well, many denominations might disaggree, but really they would not be disaggreeing with me, they'd be disaggreing with the Bible. These are not my opinions by the way. And if you ever do see my opinions, please feel free to refute them! A second class citizen..no I did not mean to say that. A women being under a man does not mean that they are inferior in any way. But this is the way God has set it up...that should end all arguments!

 

[secretdawn]

I don't think the proper way to put it is "a man under a woman". It is just a matter of different roles. A man is not "in charge" of a woman nor can he tell her what to do, how to live or anything like that. Men are just supposed to be initiaters. That is what a leader does. They don't say, "you have to do this cause I am the boss", but delegate the Lord's law in a way. But if a man tells a woman "you can't wear pink" then whatever...forget him...
In the church, the male will initiate prayer and worship, etc. But if the pastor forbids women from speaking or worshiping, then he is just on an ego trip.
I don't know whether or not I believe a woman can be a minister, but they certainly may hold leadership and teaching roles. Why have a man teach a class on the bible if the woman is better informed and more knowledgable in the subject. I would think God would rather have a woman teach then a man who would teach it wrong, or worse, not have bible study at all.

Also could someone post some verses for and against women leading a church...from new testement only please. I would like to compare them all together.

 

[Axion]

The limited role of women in the church and the sexist views still held by many christians (particularly catholics) has alienated most of my female friends from religion in general.

Why are Catholics "particularly" sexist in your view?

Because the Church opposes the killing of the unborn, or does not allow women to be priests? These things are followed by many Churches besides Catholicism, and are based on scripture, as well as on the specific role of the priest in the eucharist.

However the Catholic Church is one of the few religions that have given women prominent roles in the faith throughout history. Where some groups denied women any role other than child-rearing, Catholicism gave women an unequalled role when this was NOT fashionable. In fact in many countries and historic periods the Church has been the only place where women could lead independent lives or get a higher education.

Look through any list of Saints, and you will see women almost as well-represented as men, their lives remembered and revered as examples to all Christians. Among them re academics, missionaries, martyrs, healers, mystics, abbesses and witnesses of the faith.

Women could enter holy orders in convents, and write, study, travel across the world independently and spread the gospel. Abbesses often ruled substantial territories, and could be highly influential. St Hildegard of Bingen, St Hilda of Whitby, St Catherine of Sienna were extremely influential in the Church and wider world.

Spiritual women like St Theresa of Avila and St Therese of Lisieux have been declared Doctors of the Church, an incredibly rare accolade, for the insight they have given the world.

 

[msjones21]

I am afraid this particular verse has beent aken way out of context and this has turned into a debate about how Paul, the Bible, and Christians are sexist against women.

The Dake's Annotated Study Bible says:

1 Timothy 2:12
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the men, but to be in silence."

The Bible clearly states that a woman may teach, prophesy, even preach in a church so long as it's under the authority of a man. She is not to take dominance over the man's position which is that of being the leader. She is still permitted to teach even preach. WHat the Bible is saying is that if a woman cannot submit to the Godly, male authority figure it's better for her to remain silent.

 

[secretdawn]

So what you are saying is that a woman could lead a church, assuming there is a male leader over the group of churches?
And I don't know if you should say the "Godly, male authority figure" Look around and you will see men have a harder time on their walk with God then women do. At least as far as I can see. Being a man doesn't make them Godly. Perhaps that is because men were designed more assertive and have a harder time giving up control of their lives.

 

[water_ripple]

So what you are saying is that a woman could lead a church, assuming there is a male leader over the group of churches?
And I don't know if you should say the "Godly, male authority figure" Look around and you will see men have a harder time on their walk with God then women do. At least as far as I can see. Being a man doesn't make them Godly. Perhaps that is because men were designed more assertive and have a harder time giving up control of their lives.

I know you were not responding to me, but I would like to respond. Both sexes have their own struggles. The struggles though are the same for in Christ there is no male or female. Both partners in a marriage are to submit..that is not easy..it takes quite a bit of humility. I've been married for four years now, and I tell you the truth it takes both people working together to make happiness. Sometimes one person has to give more..other times the other has to give more. I think this is what we are missing in becoming one with Christ as well. Sometimes people get so hung up on who has the authority that so many blessings are missed or misunderstood..As far as a woman submitting to her husband..I tell ya the truth it is not easy either, but sometimes the best lessons are lessons learned by unfliching submission. If your husband truly loves you he will react to your submission. The wheels in his head will start turning, and his ego will be left intact. Now all the time this is not possible. There have been times when I have had to have an argument and stand my ground..Y because like me my husband is human and makes mistakes...sometimes he is blinded by them as am I. He too has had times when he has had to have an argument so that I could see.

Yes there are many women who are ordained ministers...Do they teach or preach or have authority over a man? I surely do not see men in their congregation standing up for upsurping a man's authority. What I have seen is men hearing the word of God. Now do I think a woman should stand up and disturb when a man is preaching? No. I do not. I think that it is much more patient and respectful if a woman speak to the minister in private...Do I think a man should stand up and disturb a woman preacher? No. Those are matters for privacy and prayer, and if the man be right with God let him take her place. Fear tactics and overscreaming one another are not an effective way to know the love of Christ.