the rich man & Lazarus is not a parable

Bible Highlighter said:

Yeah, that does not make any sense; Especially when we look at all the pieces of the puzzle in Scripture. First, Abraham and the Richman were said to be separated by a great gulf from the Richman (Luke 16:26). So they were not in Heaven. Second, Jesus said He was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). The heart of the Earth would have been where hell (Sheol or the realm of the dead) is located and not Heaven. Three, when Jesus resurrected, and He encountered Mary, He told her not to touch Him because He still needed to ascend to His Father. He told her He would return to see the disciples later (John 20:17-18). In other words, after the resurrection, Jesus did not ascend yet bodily to the Father yet where He would have been residing in Heaven above. So when Jesus said He would be with the thief in paradise (Luke 23:43), this would have been the compartment known as Abraham’s bosom separated by the great gulf from the place of torments. To conclude otherwise is to make a mess out of the verses I mentioned.

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1. there is no distinction between Israel and the Body of Christ, and
2. that every OT saint is in the 3rd heaven now,

Cockcrow said:

How do you know that paradise is not heaven. a great gulf could be talking about Heaven and hell remember this is a miracle, not a every day occurrence, God is allowing the rich man to talk to Abraham who is in Paradise. this is a miracle. and there is no good part of hell, all of it is bad. paradise is not in hell

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Cockcrow said:

How do you know that paradise is not heaven. a great gulf could be talking about Heaven and hell remember this is a miracle, not a every day occurrence, God is allowing the rich man to talk to Abraham who is in Paradise. this is a miracle. and there is no good part of hell, all of it is bad. paradise is not in hell

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Guojing said:

If you subscribe to the doctrine that

1. there is no distinction between Israel and the Body of Christ, and

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Guojing said:

1. that every OT saint is in the 3rd heaven now,

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Guojing said:

then you would want to believe that Abraham's bosom has been moved to heaven after the resurrection of Christ.

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Guojing said:

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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Guojing said:

as well as Peter in Acts 2

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

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Cockcrow said:

a morality about what? Here you have a story about a guy burning in torments in hell. what is that supposed to represent? I don't see how you can dismiss this as a parable given the naming of actual people which Jesus never did in his parables.

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Der Alte said:

A parable has a specific format something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood. The story of Lazarus and the rich man does not have such a comparison. It might be some other figure of speech but it is not a parable. The ECF who quoted/referred to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

First Apology of Justin Martyr. Chap. XXXIV. — Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and Are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.

The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form 215 [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, — in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luke 16:19, etc.) that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive 216 the preaching of Him who was 217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man

Clement of Alexander Chap. Book XI

There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian On Idolatry Chap XIII Thus, too, Eleazar [Lazarus] in Hades,(attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.

The Epistles of Cyprian. Epistle LIV 3. Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Eleazar [Lazarus], then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Well, there is the Land Promise given to Abraham and others. But the NT makes it clear we are all one in Christ.
Paul says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Nope. Nobody goes to Heaven until the Rapture.

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Bible Highlighter said:

I don’t believe Abraham’s bosom will be moved. Those saints who sleep in Christ will simply rise in the Rapture to meet the Lord in the air.

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Bible Highlighter said:

This is not the Rapture. This is the bodily resurrection which happens for the Judgment (After the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ).

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Bible Highlighter said:

Right, David did not ascend into Heaven yet because at the time of the writing of Acts 2, he was still in Abraham’s bosom. David will rise from Abraham’s bosom in the Rapture (Which is yet future).

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Cockcrow said:

a morality about what? Here you have a story about a guy burning in torments in hell. what is that supposed to represent? I don't see how you can dismiss this as a parable given the naming of actual people which Jesus never did in his parables.

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Cockcrow said:

Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable of Jesus like most people falsely believe, it is sickening how mainstream this false narrative of "its just a parable" when the reality is that it is actually a true story. Jesus never named real names in Parables, and in Luke 16:19-31 he names multiple real people 1. Lazarus the beggar 2. Abraham 3. Moses 4. The Prophets. Jesus clearly was teaching about the reality of eternal conscious torment in hell.
Luke 16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Multiple things we learn from this true story that Jesus gives, 1. Hell is immediate after last breath, 2. Hell is a real place of torment 3. You will feel pain, punishment in hell. 3. You will have full memory in hell 4. Once you're in hell it is too late (nothing can be done for you, there is no salvation in hell) 5. People who go to hell deserve to go there (the rich man didn't argue or protest with Abraham about his own salvation, he simply was begging for Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers, and also begging for water, relief from his torment) 6. People preaching The word of God bible (Moses and prophets) is what saves people, not physical signs, or miracles.

Jesus obviously tells this true story to warn us of the reality of hell. one can not simply dismiss this as "just a parable" when the Lord Jesus Christ was so specific here. Also there are some weird people who teach that "Abraham's bosom" is actually a place, or some good part of hell, but that is not biblical. Abrahams bosom is a body part, not a location.

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Cockcrow said:

but Jesus doesn't name real names in parables.

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Ordinary Christian said:

It seems to me that Justin Martyr is the only one who's addressing it as factual per se in what looks like commentary regarding reincarnation. The brief comments on the story from the other three doesn't really seem to establish whether or not they think it's factual.

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Der Alte said:

What about their mentioning of this story, not what they didn't say, makes it clear that it is a parable? All of them speak as if it was factual. Here is more from Irenaeus

in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives [rich man] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment. not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.​

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Ordinary Christian said:

That's virtually identical to what Justin Martyr wrote.

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Der Alte said:

I could not find where Justin mentioned Lazarus.

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Ceallaigh said:

From post #4:

First Apology of Justin Martyr. Chap. XXXIV. — Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and Are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.​

The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form215 [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, — in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states (Luk_16:19, etc.) that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive216 the preaching of Him who was217 to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist, that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man​

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