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Nihilist Virus

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I think I have been more than patient with you. You say I ignore your questions but I have never heard a plausible explanation from you regarding the priests' actions: they believed that supernatural events occurred and yet not one of them converted, or else they did not believe the guards and yet did not investigate (you said it would be moronic of them to do so). THIS IS NOT PLAUSIBLE.

I don't believe in grabbing the last word so you can respond to this... for your own amusement. If by some miracle you take a Christian-like turn away from self indulgence to indulge me on this matter, we can continue. Otherwise, you will no longer amuse yourself with our conversations.
 
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OK. If you don't think the text is plausible regarding the chief priests and guards then I don't know what we have to talk about. I mean, what common ground do we have? None that I can see.

Here's the problem. As an atheist savage I can still admit that there are holes in my world view. As a Christian, you admit nothing. The story, as it is recorded, is not plausible. You have to explain why it is, or else admit that something is probably missing.

If I did believe the story was plausible, why would I make this thread?
 
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By the way...

Event A and Event B do not qualify for the slippery-slope fallacy as you outlined it because I'm not saying anything MUST happen. I'm saying I expect an investigation to follow more than I expect the opposite, so this is evidence for my side. Claiming to have evidence is not the same as claiming to have proof.

It's called the slippery-slope fallacy because one jumps to the conclusion quickly, much like how you would reach the bottom of a slippery slope quickly. I AM NOT DOING THAT.

Also I've given a reason why I think the omission cuts against the narrative of the gospels. The pharisees were always hostile toward Jesus, and everyone (including the disciples) was skeptical of Jesus all the time. Yet the skepticism of the resurrection is short lived and no one outside of Jesus’s circle is even skeptical at all? Am I to believe that the skepticism dies after he is tried, convicted, and executed?


Nothing that you have contributed makes sense. You fail to see how the pharisees' reaction to the resurrection is not plausible because you have an incorrect version of events rattling around in your head (that the guards reported nothing supernatural), and this incorrect version is of course because you did not take the time to read the gospel before ridiculing an unbeliever who somehow knows the gospel better than you. Which is kind of like your coworker having to remind you of your anniversary, except I imagine the resurrection should actually be even more important to you.
 
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Tawhano

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Why is it not plausible? Because you say so? They were Jews so they believe in the supernatural. They didn’t believe Jesus was the Son of God or that he rose from the dead. They would believe an angel appeared and that the body was missing but that would not be proof that Jesus rose from the dead or that he was the Son of God.
 
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Tawhano

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In your OP you stated:

The complete lack of an investigation for a miraculous event is in fact evidence that no miracle occurred in the first place.”

That is saying, in fact, that an investigation must happen for there to be evidence that the miracle took place.

It is nothing more than speculation that the skepticism was short lived.

Nothing that you have contributed makes sense.
It is understandable that it makes no sense to you. You interpret my arguments by reading your views into what I am saying. This is evident in the propositions 4a and 4b you cooked up and tried to get me to adopt one and defend it.

…you have an incorrect version of events rattling around in your head (that the guards reported nothing supernatural)…
You are stuck on throwing this in the ring aren’t you? I made an error, I admitted the error was mine and it does nothing to add or detract from my views. You bring this up because you have nothing to back up your OP and you are trying to hide that by pointing out this error of mine in almost every post since I made the error.

…an unbeliever who somehow knows the gospel better than you…
If you knew the gospel better than me then you would have understood that the answer to your OP was there all along. All you did was take an argument you found on some anti-Christian site and post it here without doing research into it.
 
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You are telling me that Jesus reportedly committed hundreds, if not thousands, of miracles, then predicted that he would rise from the dead, then his body was gone and angels were at the scene, and after all this the most educated men in the city conclude that the body was simply stolen? Why would there be angels there if Jesus' body was stolen?


In your OP you stated:



That is saying, in fact, that an investigation must happen for there to be evidence that the miracle took place.


1. An investigation MUST follow a supernatural event
2. There was no investigation
3. There was no supernatural event

That is a slippery-slope fallacy. See how there is a conclusion? See how it portrays itself as a logical syllogism?

I am saying this:

1. No investigation is documented
2. I present an analogy to show an investigation is expected
3. This is EVIDENCE that the resurrection did not occur

You are CLEARLY wrong. You say you admitted being wrong. Draw from that experience.

It is nothing more than speculation that the skepticism was short lived.

Speculation stemming from no investigation being documented.

It is understandable that it makes no sense to you. You interpret my arguments by reading your views into what I am saying. This is evident in the propositions 4a and 4b you cooked up and tried to get me to adopt one and defend it.

You suggested 4c: the guards lay there while the women spoke with the angels, then you ASSERT WITH NO EVIDENCE that the angels left and the guards were bold enough to look inside the tomb. Granted this, the pharisees' reaction is still not plausible. It says clearly that they were aware of Jesus’s claim that he would rise from the dead (you probably did not read this), and you claim that they believed angels appeared but that nothing else interesting happened? So they believed God sent the angels to distract the guards so the disciples could steal the body? Well if God was on Jesus’s side, as this would suggest, and if Jesus claimed he would rise from the dead, and now angels appeared and his body is gone... just how stupid do you think they were?


You admitted to wording something incorrectly. Except it was more than that. You said nothing supernatural happened at the sepulcher, and you corrected this but did not correct the errors carried forward from this. Also I saw no apologies for the ridiculing I got for not taking the time to read the gospel when clearly you hadn't bothered to read it yourself. Normally I couldn't care less about apologies, but if repentance is a pillar of your beliefs and yet the thought of doing so doesn’t cross your mind, combined with the host of insults and your aversion to reading the gospels, I find it hard to take your faith seriously on any level except intellectual belief. But even the demons have this. When I speak with a Christian, I expect love, not insults. I expect humility, not rebukes. People like you are why I say there are seven billion antichrists walking this earth.

If you knew the gospel better than me then you would have understood that the answer to your OP was there all along. All you did was take an argument you found on some anti-Christian site and post it here without doing research into it.

This is my own original argument. I've never heard it in my life.
 
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Lastly, you quote this:

The complete lack of an investigation for a miraculous event is in fact evidence that no miracle occurred in the first place.

You conclude this:

That is saying, in fact, that an investigation must happen for there to be evidence that the miracle took place.

Wrong.

The gospels are evidence of the resurrection. Not very good evidence in my opinion, but they are something to be discussed.

You are putting words in my mouth. You are saying that my claim is that there is no evidence for the resurrection because there was no investigation. Absolutely false. I've already gone on record saying there is evidence going both ways.

Lastly, I am not even guilty of wording things poorly. To say that x is evidence for y is not to say that there is no evidence for the opposite of y. You lack either in logic or reading comprehension.
 
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Tawhano

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You said nothing supernatural happened at the sepulcher, and you corrected this but did not correct the errors carried forward from this.
There are no errors carried on from that. It is irrelevant to my rebuttal to your incessant manta that no investigation took place. I never said "nothing supernatural happened at the sepulcher". Please quote the post you believe I said that. You are twisting my omission made in error, which I corrected, into a strawman argument.
 
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Tawhano

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Lastly, I am not even guilty of wording things poorly. To say that x is evidence for y is not to say that there is no evidence for the opposite of y. You lack either in logic or reading comprehension.
I explained all this several times already and it is apparent that you are the one who is lacking, not me.

You are putting words in my mouth. You are saying that my claim is that there is no evidence for the resurrection because there was no investigation. Absolutely false. I've already gone on record saying there is evidence going both ways.
Which makes this thread a farce because you absolutely discounted that an investigation was ever performed.

The complete lack of an investigation for a miraculous event is in fact evidence that no miracle occurred in the first place.
So why is it that Jesus, who apparently performed more miracles than all of the books in the whole world could record, was said to have risen from the dead and yet no one bothered to go look?
WHY didn't anyone GO look? That is my question.
Please just explain why no one went to the tomb to check whether there were bloody footprints or bloody drag marks, since, after all, Jesus had already performed hundreds of miracles.
I asked why no one cared to pay a visit after Easter Sunday.
Yes, it doesn't matter if the investigation occurs after Easter Sunday or on it. You are correct there. But why was there no investigation at all?
Your argument has been from the start that no investigation took place.
 
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Yes, you never said that nothing supernatural happened at the tomb because you obviously believe Jesus rose from the dead. What you said was that the guards experienced an earthquake and did not see anything supernatural, nor did they report anything supernatural. What you said was that they reported to the priests that they investigated the tomb after the earthquake only to see that the tomb was empty.

This is a long-held perception by you of what occurred, and it is flat wrong. You "stood corrected" on the issue of angels appearing at the tomb, but you never corrected your false belief that the Bible says the guards investigated the tomb. You defend this assertion by saying that the guards had to investigate because the priests started the rumor that the disciples stole the body. All we know for sure is that the guards were terrified of the angels and that they saw the stone was moved.

Your argument is this:

1. The priests reported that the disciples stole the body
2. The guards MUST have investigated the tomb

This is a slippery-slope fallacy, as you define it. How do you know the priests didn't start circulating that rumor AFTER the rumors of Jesus' resurrection came out? You commit slippery-slope fallacies, and you didn't read Matthew 28. You chastised me for the things you had done wrong.

I've yet to hear you admit that you were hypocritical in chastising me for not reading Matthew 28.


I explained all this several times already and it is apparent that you are the one who is lacking, not me.

Which makes this thread a farce because you absolutely discounted that an investigation was ever performed.

Given how terrified the guards were of the angels, given that there is no account of the guards interacting with the women or later with Peter, given that there is no explicit account of the guards investigating the tomb at all, I am correct in saying that there is no recorded investigation of the tomb.

Given that Jesus was doubted throughout the gospels, I am correct in expecting that his resurrection would face more doubt than the little that was recorded. I mean, PETER WAS WALKING ON WATER AND STILL DOUBTED JESUS. Yet all we get on the resurrection is a doubting Thomas?




Your argument has been from the start that no investigation took place.

I'm not denying this, and at the most I'd clarify that no investigation was recorded and that one should have been. Are you trying to say I'm changing my story now?
 
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Tawhano

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This is a slippery-slope fallacy, as you define it.
Stop with the slippery slope “back at ya” rebuttal. You have proven beyond any doubt that you have no idea what a slippery slope fallacy is.

Are you trying to say I'm changing my story now?
Yes absolutely.

And then you change your story:

Post#302
Yes, it doesn't matter if the investigation occurs after Easter Sunday or on it. You are correct there.
Then you change that to a second investigation:

Post#347
So what you need to do is convey to me that you understand there should have been a second investigation.
And change it again to:

Post#407
You are putting words in my mouth. You are saying that my claim is that there is no evidence for the resurrection because there was no investigation. Absolutely false. I've already gone on record saying there is evidence going both ways.
So if there is evidence “going both ways” then why do steadfastly reject all the posts here that support the other way?
 
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Firstly, I never said there needed to be a second investigation because I never agreed that there was one in the first place. When I spoke of a second investigation, I was assuming your premise. I was asking you, "OK, so according to your argument, the priests believed an investigation in which there were not any supernatural events, and they did not order a second investigation?"

You are AGAIN redacting things I've said and replying selectively, despite speaking against those actions from me.

You are saying that I can't counterattack your claims of slippery-slope fallacy? Why? I didn't see the rule where if you accuse someone of something, you're automatically not guilty of said accusation. I'm saying that he who smelt it dealt it in this case. You are in fact saying that the guards must have investigated the tomb. SO EXPLAIN HOW IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT THE PRIESTS STARTED THE RUMOR OF THE STOLEN BODY AS A RESPONSE TO THE RESURRECTION CLAIM INSTEAD OF AS A PREEMPTIVE CLAIM. If you do not prove this, you are guilty of the same fallacy you've accused me of.
 
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Tawhano

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…You are AGAIN redacting things I've said and replying selectively…
Which is exactly what you just did; selectively chose one quote I posted as evidence and ignored the rest. I re-read the post again and will accept your explanation that “When I spoke of a second investigation, I was assuming your premise.” This just leaves the rest of the evidence that you have changed your arguments several times as I have outlined.
 
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You are saying that I can't counterattack your claims of slippery-slope fallacy? Why?
I already explained that to you; you do not know what a slippery slope argument is. How can you accuse me of using a slippery slope argument when you have no idea what it is.

SO EXPLAIN HOW IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT THE PRIESTS STARTED THE RUMOR OF THE STOLEN BODY AS A RESPONSE TO THE RESURRECTION CLAIM INSTEAD OF AS A PREEMPTIVE CLAIM. If you do not prove this, you are guilty of the same fallacy you've accused me of.
I am arguing my position based on the evidence at hand; the accounts written in the Bible. You are responding with speculations. We already discussed the weakness of speculating and I thought we agreed to stick with the account written in the Bible. You are speculating that the priest started the rumor afterwards so I do not have to prove it is impossible.

I based my conclusion that the priest knew that there was no body in the sepulcher because the guards told them on logical deduction from the evidence at hand and not speculation. Unless you can prove that the priest started the rumor of the stolen body as a response to the resurrection claim then you only have speculation.
 
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Unless you can prove that the priest started the rumor of the stolen body as a response to the resurrection claim then you only have speculation.

I'm not saying this is what must have happened. I'm saying that you are eliminating this as a possibility. Please explain how this scenario is impossible.
 
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Tawhano

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I'm not saying this is what must have happened. I'm saying that you are eliminating this as a possibility. Please explain how this scenario is impossible.
I am not eliminating that as a possibility. I am saying "I am arguing my position based on the evidence at hand; the accounts written in the Bible. You are responding with speculations. We already discussed the weakness of speculating and I thought we agreed to stick with the account written in the Bible. You are speculating that the priest started the rumor afterwards so I do not have to prove it is impossible." Unless you can prove that the priest started the rumor of the stolen body as a response to the resurrection claim using the recorded events in the Bible then you only have speculation.
 
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