The Restitution Of All Things

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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The Church does indeed work 'that way', at least according to the Catholic Church. Don't try to sidestep it now.

Ecumenical Councils have 3 stages: convocation, direction and confirmation. If the pope does not attend, and the decision has not been pre-agreed, the pope must EXPRESSLY RATIFY any acts in order for them to be considered infallible:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: General Councils.

The Fifth Ecumenical Council was convoked by the emperor and was OPPOSED by the pope. The pope therefore did not attend. It took 6 months for the emperor to get the pope to issue the decretal letter by way of Confirmation. Why would Justinian have bothered hassling Vigilius for a decree if it was already a done deal? No, of course the pope's sign-off is essential to giving the acts juridical force.

So you're essentially arguing the Catholic Church can be bound in absentia by decisions of non-Catholic bishops, and be forced to accept those decisions as infallible?? I think you'll find you're dead wrong on this point.

Can you even tell me which bishops attended on behalf of which churches at the Fifth Council? Who in particular do you say condemned the doctrine you cite?

So the point is, even if you can explain why there's a massive disconnect between the convocation letter/ agenda in failing to mention Origen or universalism and the full two thirds of anathemas purporting to address the same (and the onus is on you to bridge this gap), you face the insurmountable problem that those anathemas were never confirmed as canon law or decrees of the Catholic Church.

No, it doesn't work that way. Research The Great Schism of 1,054 A.D. and then get back to me.

Also, New Advent IS ITSELF A ROMAN CATHOLIC SITE :


CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)



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No, it doesn't work that way. Research The Great Schism of 1,054 A.D. and then get back to me.

Kindly enlighten me as to the relevance of the Great Schism?

You'll find that Canon 3 adopted by the Second Ecumenical Council provides that the Bishop of Rome has prerogative of honour, denoting subjection and diminution of other Bishops to him. Rather unsurprisingly, he was the top dog at the fair:
canons of the second ecumenical council

So you're saying that the Pope's INFERIORS by law could dictate terms to him? Is that how anything 'works'?

What exactly do you have in support of your wild assertions?

Also, New Advent IS ITSELF A ROMAN CATHOLIC SITE

And your point is...?

Look, if you have anything to bring to the table, then kindly do so or admit you're overreaching, repent and forever hold your peace.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Kindly enlighten me as to the relevance of the Great Schism?

You'll find that Canon 3 adopted by the Second Ecumenical Council provides that the Bishop of Rome has prerogative of honour, denoting subjection and diminution of other Bishops to him. Rather unsurprisingly, he was the top dog at the fair:
canons of the second ecumenical council

So you're saying that the Pope's INFERIORS by law could dictate terms to him? Is that how anything 'works'?

What exactly do you have in support of your wild assertions?



And your point is...?

Look, if you have anything to bring to the table, then kindly do so or admit you're overreaching, repent and forever hold your peace.

From : Apocatastasis - Wikipedia

And : Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki



• Apocatastasis / ἀποκατάστασις / Universal Salvation /Universal Reconciliation


"A local Synod of Constantinople (543) condemned a form of apocatastasis as being Anathema, and the Anathema was formally submitted to the Fifth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (553). Since apocatastasis had been used earlier in writers commenting on Peter's use in the New Testament, the form of apocatastasis condemned in 543 and 553 was a later development."

"The Second Council of Nicea explicitly affirmed in its sentence that the Second Council of Constantinople Condemned Origen, as well as taught the existence of eternal damnation and explicitly rejected "the restoration of all things," which in Latin is a reference to Apocatastasis."

"Origen of Alexandria's other teachings about the possibility of glorified man falling again also played a role in that condemnation. In fact, most historians today would recognize a distinction between Origen's own teachings (or at least those that have survived) and the theological positions of later "Origenists". Even beliefs long attributed to Origen himself, such as a Platonic version of souls existing before bodies, the possibility of a second fall, are found to be much more nuanced and difficult to pin down in Origen's own writings. The Anathema against apocatastasis, or more accurately, against the belief that hell is not eternal, was not ratified despite support from the Emperor, and it is absent from the Anathemas spoken against Origen at Constantinople II "



Also :
East–West Schism - Wikipedia


.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Jude: Do you see the O.P.? That, my friend, is the foundation upon which we will continue to pursue what has been declared by the earliest schools of the earliest Church.

Every time you appear here you want to tell us about the synods. Every time you make an appearance, EVERY TIME, F.L. will ask you the same identical questions to which you will answer from your personal experience of the Scriptures.

Questions

1. How many bow and confess the Saviour of all mankind ultimately?

2. How many dimensions of the heavens, earth, & underworld bow & confess?

3. The confession is IN/EN the Name of Jesus: what does being in His Name mean?

“Almost everything will work again if you unplug it for a few minutes, including you.” - Anne Lamott-
 
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"The Second Council of Nicea explicitly affirmed in its sentence that the Second Council of Constantinople Condemned Origen, as well as taught the existence of eternal damnation and explicitly rejected "the restoration of all things," which in Latin is a reference to Apocatastasis."

I hope you can find any reference to Origen, apocatastasis, damnation or restoration of all in the ACTUAL TEXT of the Canons of the 7th Ecumenical Council aka the Second Council of Nicea, because I can't...
The Second Council of Nicea: The Canons of the Holy and Ecumenical Seventh Council

he Anathema against apocatastasis, or more accurately, against the belief that hell is not eternal, was not ratified despite support from the Emperor, and it is absent from the Anathemas spoken against Origen at Constantinople II "

Bingo! Ratification required but not given.

Are you ready to fall to your knees crying 'Abba, Father' yet?
 
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hedrick

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I hope you can find any reference to Origen, apocatastasis, damnation or restoration of all in the ACTUAL TEXT of the Canons of the 7th Ecumenical Council aka the Second Council of Nicea, because I can't...
The Second Council of Nicea: The Canons of the Holy and Ecumenical Seventh Council
Here's the most explicit reference i've found, if you want to track down the specifics: Nicea II’s Teaching on Eternal Damnation, Origen, and Apocatastasis.

It appears that this is not in the canons, but in a separate definition. See NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils - Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Note item 18.

Here's a more detailed listing of those defiinitions. Note definition 18. The Seventh General Council, the Second of Nicaca, in which the Worship of Images was Established; with Copious Notes from the “Caroline Books,” Compiled by Order of Charlemagne for Its Confutation. Translated from the Original, by J. Mendham. However there is serious doubt about the accuracy of this.

So it's probably best to rely on the previous pointer. I wish it gave more specifics, but it does say "(18) If anyone denies the resurrection of the dead, and the judgment, and the condign retribution to everyone, endless torment and endless bliss, etc."
 
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Here's the most explicit reference i've found, if you want to track down the specifics: Nicea II’s Teaching on Eternal Damnation, Origen, and Apocatastasis.

Thanks Hedrik. A search of the actual source referred to by the learned author of the above page reveals nil occurrences of the word 'damnation' in 600+ pages of transcript, despite the author's assertion that:

'Epiphanius (speaking for the council) explicitly says that the existence of eternal damnation “is the confession of…the divinely inspired Apostles”'

The actual text on p.423 reads as follows:
Gregory reads : —
" Definition 18.—If any one confess not the resurrection of the dead, the judgment to come, the retribution of each one according to
his merits in the righteous balance of the Lord, that neither will there be any end of punishment, nor indeed of the kingdom of heaven— that is, the full enjoyment of God ; for the kingdom of heaven is not meat and drink, but righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Ghost, as the divine Apostle teaches—let him be anathema."

Epiphanius reads :—
" This is the confession of the patrons of our true faith—the holy Apostles, the divinely- inspired Fathers: this is the confession of the Catholic Church, and not of heretics. That which follows, however, is their own, full of ignorance and absurdity, for thus they bluster :"—


The webpage author's elision of phrases is less than illuminating. Definition 18 properly construed is not inconsistent with universalism. Its purport is simply that none can be fully reconciled until they confess to those 3 articles. We say that according to scripture they will so confess, be it in this age or the world to come.

The 2nd reference in context on p.438 reads:

" Furthermore, we confess the two natures of Him who was for us incarnate of Mary ever a Virgin, the undefined Mother of God,
acknowledging Him to be at the same time perfect God and perfect Man, as the Council of Chalcedon hath defined, which drave out the
blasphemous Eutyches and Dioscorus from the sacred courts, and with these we class also Severus and Peter; and their chain of
variously-blaspheming and discordant fellows.

With whom we also anathematise the fables of Origen, Evagrius, and Didymus, in accordance with the fifth General Council assembled
at Constantinople.

The problem with the statement in question is that it is too vague. There is no extant documentation from Con II regarding Evagrius and Didymus, in relation to whom Hefele in his Excursus informs us that:

Cardinal Noris, in his Dissertatio Historica de Synodo Quinta, is of opinion that Origen was twice condemned by the Fifth Synod; the first time by himself before the eight sessions of which alone the acts remain, and again after those eight sessions, in connexion with two of his chief followers, Didymus the Blind and the deacon Evagrius.
Internet History Sourcebooks

So the 'fables' of Origen were those anathematised in connection or together with, his 2 disciples. Unfortunately, no such corroboration or definition exists from Con II as the full transcript is not extant.

The only glimmer of light for Jude and his ilk here is the mention of Eutyches is the preceding paragraph, connected by the 'with whom'. But this just takes us back to the 'Three Chapters controversy' and lack of other reliable means by which the 'impious writings' in Capitula XI of Con II may be identified:

IF anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their impious writings, [...]

So, to sum up, the passages cited in Nicea II contain no endorsement of eternal damnation, and insufficient information to determine that universalism was ever contemplated for purposes of condemnation.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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I hope you can find any reference to Origen, apocatastasis, damnation or restoration of all in the ACTUAL TEXT of the Canons of the 7th Ecumenical Council aka the Second Council of Nicea, because I can't...
The Second Council of Nicea: The Canons of the Holy and Ecumenical Seventh Council



Bingo! Ratification required but not given.

Are you ready to fall to your knees crying 'Abba, Father' yet?


Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki


The anathemas of the local Council of Constantinople in 453, which is understood by most commentators to be confirmed by the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553, posthumously excommunicated Origen and anyone following specific points of his teachings. These Anathemas Condemned his protology of pre-existent souls And His Eschatology Of Universal Restoration Of All Things "which follows from" his protology:

  • If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. (First anathema against Origen)
  • If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence: let him be anathema. (Fourteenth anathema against Origen)
The decisions of ecumenical councils have universal authority in the Orthodox Church. Only doctrinal definitions have the force of dogma. Local councils only have authority within specific geographic limits.


.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Jude: Do you see the O.P.? That, my friend, is the foundation upon which we will continue to pursue what has been declared by the earliest schools of the earliest Church.

Every time you appear here you want to tell us about the synods. Every time you make an appearance, EVERY TIME, F.L. will ask you the same identical questions to which you will answer from your personal experience of the Scriptures.

Questions

1. How many bow and confess the Saviour of all mankind ultimately?

2. How many dimensions of the heavens, earth, & underworld bow & confess?

3. The confession is IN/EN the Name of Jesus: what does being in His Name mean?

“Almost everything will work again if you unplug it for a few minutes, including you.” - Anne Lamott-
 
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hedrick

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Thanks Hedrik. A search of the actual source referred to by the learned author of the above page reveals nil occurrences of the word 'damnation' in 600+ pages of transcript, despite the author's assertion that:

'Epiphanius (speaking for the council) explicitly says that the existence of eternal damnation “is the confession of…the divinely inspired Apostles”'

The actual text on p.423 reads as follows:
Gregory reads : —
" Definition 18.—If any one confess not the resurrection of the dead, the judgment to come, the retribution of each one according to
his merits in the righteous balance of the Lord, that neither will there be any end of punishment, nor indeed of the kingdom of heaven— that is, the full enjoyment of God ; for the kingdom of heaven is not meat and drink, but righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Ghost, as the divine Apostle teaches—let him be anathema."

Epiphanius reads :—
" This is the confession of the patrons of our true faith—the holy Apostles, the divinely- inspired Fathers: this is the confession of the Catholic Church, and not of heretics. That which follows, however, is their own, full of ignorance and absurdity, for thus they bluster :"—


The webpage author's elision of phrases is less than illuminating. Definition 18 properly construed is not inconsistent with universalism. Its purport is simply that none can be fully reconciled until they confess to those 3 articles. We say that according to scripture they will so confess, be it in this age or the world to come.

The 2nd reference in context on p.438 reads:

" Furthermore, we confess the two natures of Him who was for us incarnate of Mary ever a Virgin, the undefined Mother of God,
acknowledging Him to be at the same time perfect God and perfect Man, as the Council of Chalcedon hath defined, which drave out the
blasphemous Eutyches and Dioscorus from the sacred courts, and with these we class also Severus and Peter; and their chain of
variously-blaspheming and discordant fellows.

With whom we also anathematise the fables of Origen, Evagrius, and Didymus, in accordance with the fifth General Council assembled
at Constantinople.

The problem with the statement in question is that it is too vague. There is no extant documentation from Con II regarding Evagrius and Didymus, in relation to whom Hefele in his Excursus informs us that:

Cardinal Noris, in his Dissertatio Historica de Synodo Quinta, is of opinion that Origen was twice condemned by the Fifth Synod; the first time by himself before the eight sessions of which alone the acts remain, and again after those eight sessions, in connexion with two of his chief followers, Didymus the Blind and the deacon Evagrius.
Internet History Sourcebooks

So the 'fables' of Origen were those anathematised in connection or together with, his 2 disciples. Unfortunately, no such corroboration or definition exists from Con II as the full transcript is not extant.

The only glimmer of light for Jude and his ilk here is the mention of Eutyches is the preceding paragraph, connected by the 'with whom'. But this just takes us back to the 'Three Chapters controversy' and lack of other reliable means by which the 'impious writings' in Capitula XI of Con II may be identified:

IF anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their impious writings, [...]

So, to sum up, the passages cited in Nicea II contain no endorsement of eternal damnation, and insufficient information to determine that universalism was ever contemplated for purposes of condemnation.
The one section that seemed to do it was "neither will there be any end of punishment". I agree that there's lot of dubious claims floating around, but this one seems real. However the accuracy of that source is questionable. That's why I thought the best citation was from the summary in NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS. It's not as explicit as you'd like but seems to represent the text quoted here. So it looks like the definitions actually did condemn the idea that punishment will eventually cease.
 
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FineLinen

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The one section that seemed to do it was "neither will there be any end of punishment". I agree that there's lot of dubious claims floating around, but this one seems real. However the accuracy of that source is questionable. That's why I thought the best citation was from the summary in NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS. It's not as explicit as you'd like but seems to represent the text quoted here. So it looks like the definitions actually did condemn the idea that punishment will eventually cease.

Dear Hedrick: evidently then, the Nicene & P.N. fathers thought the Father of all fathers punishes with punishment as an end in itself? Good grief, away with the old rascals!

7f58a3898b78def226e2960e2918b13fefc9028c.jpeg
 
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FineLinen

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"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Please Note

"Things" is [in the brackets] in short: the all of the radical pas & the super radical ta panta stands without things of any sort!

He reconciles the all: The radical all of pas, the all of ta panta.
 
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hedrick

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Dear Hedrick: evidently then, the Nicene & P.N. fathers thought the Father of all fathers punishes with punishment as an end in itself? Good grief, away with the old rascals!
Most Christians, in history and now, consider it essential to justice. God, of course, is committed to being just. I'm sure you know the arguments. The Biblical evidence is not unambiguous.
 
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Most Christians, in history and now, consider it essential to justice. God, of course, is committed to being just. I'm sure you know the arguments. The Biblical evidence is not unambiguous.

Dear Hedrick: Most Christians then and now are in for a rude awakening! Have you read George MacDonald? He has forgotten more than most of us will ever grasp on this side of Glory.

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice
 
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Apocatastasis - OrthodoxWiki


The anathemas of the local Council of Constantinople in 453, which is understood by most commentators to be confirmed by the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553, posthumously excommunicated Origen and anyone following specific points of his teachings. These Anathemas Condemned his protology of pre-existent souls And His Eschatology Of Universal Restoration Of All Things "which follows from" his protology:

  • If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. (First anathema against Origen)
  • If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence: let him be anathema. (Fourteenth anathema against Origen)
The decisions of ecumenical councils have universal authority in the Orthodox Church. Only doctrinal definitions have the force of dogma. Local councils only have authority within specific geographic limits.


.

Okay, I'll accept there's a connection between the use of the word 'fables' in Nicea II and 'fabulous' in the first anathema against Origen arguably part of the previously unratified decisions of Con II.

But what is the fable here? It is the theology comprising 2 limbs (a) protology of pre-existence of souls and (b) eschatology of the 'monstrous restoration which follows from it'. It is the 'pretended apocatastasis' where 'spirits only will continue to exist', which comes from a 'feigned pre-existence' that was condemned.

We say that has absolutely nothing to do with the glorious restoration of all things (eg Acts 3:21) - the TRUE APOCATASTASIS, the dogmatic acceptance of which is implied by these anathema.

So the restoration is 'monstrous' because it is spirits-only and not 'all things'. What is being condemned here is a kind of limited restoration.

This is borne out by the alleged 11th anathema against Origen:
XI.

IF anyone shall say that the future judgment signifies the destruction of the body and that the end of the story will be an immaterial yusis , and that thereafter there will no longer be any matter, but only spirit nous : let him be anathema.


So we conclude that the Anathema against Origen imply that there was an accepted orthodox dogmatic belief in an untrammeled restoration of both spirit and matter (ie a true apocatastasis), just as Peter spoke of in Acts 3:21.
 
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The one section that seemed to do it was "neither will there be any end of punishment". I agree that there's lot of dubious claims floating around, but this one seems real. However the accuracy of that source is questionable. That's why I thought the best citation was from the summary in NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS. It's not as explicit as you'd like but seems to represent the text quoted here. So it looks like the definitions actually did condemn the idea that punishment will eventually cease.

I don't see the summary you mention. Is the citation you're referring to the same as the quoted passage I gave, as follows?

Definition 18.—If any one confess not the resurrection of the dead, the judgment to come, the retribution of each one according to his merits in the righteous balance of the Lord, that neither will there be any end of punishment, nor indeed of the kingdom of heaven— that is, the full enjoyment of God; for the kingdom of heaven is not meat and drink, but righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Ghost, as the divine Apostle teaches—let him be anathema."

If not, please provide the link.
 
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