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The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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<Clem>Which of these two renderings is a more literal translation of the Greek EIS AIONAS AIONON in Rev.14:11:
1. for ever and ever
2. into/to the ages of ages
Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.<end>
You still have not answered my question how do YOU, not me, determine which scripture is literal and which one isn't? Which grammatical or lexical rules, if any, do you use to determine when scripture is literal?
.....You say that Young's is authoritative. In his analytical concordance he says that aionios means age lasting but in the 40+ verses he cites it is translated "eternal." Link below.
Analytical concordance to the Holy Bible : containing about 311,000 references, subdivided under the Hebrew and Greek original with the literal meaning and pronunciation of each; also index lexicons to the Old and New Testaments, being a guide to parallel passages; and a complete list of scripture proper names : Young, Robert, 1822-1888 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Regardless, either way, "no rest day or night" doesn't have to equate to "for ever and ever". If someone said to me "I have no rest day or night", this could mean for a finite period of time.
What someone may or may not say to you and what you may or may not understand is irrelevant to anything. Your example is not accompanied by the words εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon. Could your imaginary speaker also say "eis aionas aionon?"
Who said otherwise? And what is your point?
You did! My point is you got it wrong! You said, "First he speaks of 'aionas aionion' as meaning a 'finite period' & then, in the same sentence, he refers to it being 'forever and forever'. Which is it, forever or finite?" Where in Rev 14:11 does John speak of "aionas aionon" meaning a finite period? As I pointed John certainly does not say that even in Chap. 11 or 15 the closest occurrences of aionas to 14;11
No, that is a generalization that does not apply to all who believe in UR. Secondly, it speaks of a single Person, not "they", reigning, whose reign ends as per 1 Cor.15:24-28. And, thirdly, you've never addressed these 12 points:
Wrong! There is no personal pronoun before "reign" in Rev 22:5. βασιλευσουσιν/basileusousin translated reign is a V-FAI-3P, verb, future, active, indicative, 3rd person, PLURAL. The KJV got it wrong. It can only be translated "they will reign forever and ever." May I suggest instead of blindly following UR writers you do some personal research in sources which parse the verbs.
 
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ClementofA

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.....You say that Young's is authoritative.

I don't recall saying any such thing. But i asked:

Which of these two renderings is a more literal translation of the Greek EIS AIONAS AIONON in Rev.14:11:

1. for ever and ever

2. into/to the ages of ages


Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
 
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ClementofA

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Of course the torment can be understand as being finite. As is obvious just from a cursory reading of the verse. You've demonstrated no proof otherwise. Here is the verse again, in one of the more literal translations, rather than your misleading biased version:

11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name. (CLV)

Wrong! There is no personal pronoun before "reign" in Rev 22:5.

Look again. You're in the wrong chapter. My comment (and yours i was responding to) was remarking on a verse in Revelation 11, not Revelation 22:5.
 
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ClementofA

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You did! My point is you got it wrong!

Got what wrong?

You said, "
First he speaks of 'aionas aionion' as meaning a 'finite period' & then, in the same sentence, he refers to it being 'forever and forever'. Which is it, forever or finite?"

Are you aware that the word "he" there (in both instances) refers to you?


Where in Rev 14:11 does John speak of "aionas aionon" meaning a finite period? As I pointed John certainly does not say that even in Chap. 11 or 15 the closest occurrences of aionas to 14;11

You've never addressed these 12 points:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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he-man

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Dear he-man: Never ever limit the Unlimited One! He has unlimited resources to bring His Sovereign will to fruition! He is the Deviser of all devisers. 2 Samuel 14:14 - Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die.
Only to those that love him, the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Mark 8:36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again to dust.
Job 34:26 He striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others;
Job 34:27 Because they turned back from him, and would not consider any of his ways:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear he-man: my friend you quote lots and lots of Scripture. One day you will be caught into the Source of these mighty words.

The Master, the Lord Jesus Christ had few that grasped what He spoke (including His chosen disciples), saying "how can these things be?"One must have their understanding opened to understand the Scriptures!

"..Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law--is compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well. So the word lost came to be for Mrs. Smith, a term of greatest comfort. If a person is a "lost sinner" it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found. -Catherine Marshall- (Beyond Ourselves)
 
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he-man

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Luke 13:24 explains the true meaning when Christ has shut up the door he has shut up your confusion. Luke 13:25
 
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FineLinen

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"The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished..." -2 Peter 2:9-

Punishment=Kolasis

Kolasis=


Correction.

Punishment.

Penalty.

Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo

Kolazo=


1. To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

2. To curb, check, restrain.

3. To chastise. To correct. Punishment .

4. To cause to be punished.

Correction=

Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.

Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

Treatment of a specific defect.

The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

A rebuke for making a mistake.

The act of punishing.

Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

Amendation.

Rectification.

Rectification=

To set right. To correct.

To purify.

To correct by removing errors.

To adjust.

A quantity applied by way of correcting.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Amendation.

To correct something or make something right.

The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

To correct by calculation or adjustment.

To adjust.

To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

"Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

Fitted= Katartizo=

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair.

To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.

To make one what he aught to be.

" In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;.... down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. "-C.S. Lewis
 
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ClementofA

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he-man

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Does that say the door is shut forever? Compare: Rev.21:25a Its gates will never be closed...
https://www.amazon.ca/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut/dp/1606088823
Now the rest of the story...And the gates will never be closed to them which are written in the Lamb's book of life. 
Revelation 21:24  And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 

Revelation 21:25  And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 

Revelation 21:26  And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 

Revelation 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. 

Isaiah 60:11  Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. 

Isaiah 60:12  For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
 
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FineLinen

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Romans 9:22

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction."

Fitted= katartivzw

Katartivzw=


To render or to fit.

To make sound or complete.

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair what has been broken or rent.

To put in order.

To arrange. To adjust.

To fit or frame for one's self.

To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.

To make one what he aught to be.

Dr. Marvin Vincent

Fitted= kathrtismena=

Literally: adjusted or mended.

"ei de qelwn o qeoV endeixasqai thn orghn kai gnwrisai to dunaton autou hnegken en pollh makroqumia skeuh orghV kathrtismena eiV apwleian"
 
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he-man

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kathrtismena eiV apwleian= fitted καταρτίζω] for [destruction, ἀπώλεια] in battle array, prepare for its full destination the objects of his wrath [fitted καταρτίζω]
for [destruction, ἀπώλεια] to adjust, put in order,
 
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ClementofA

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The earliest & best Greek MSS omit "which are saved", as do the best & most English translations. See: Revelation 21:24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.



All will have life & justification:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).





...Psalm 86:9
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalm 22:27-28
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S:
and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 72:11
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
ALL the ENDS of the world shall turn unto the Lord.

Psalm 145:9-10
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Gods mercy endures for ever over ALL HIS WORKS.

Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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FineLinen

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Dear he-man: does any of this make sense to you?

Do you know there are over 20 distinct words for destruction in the Old Covenant. Of those, there are words linking destruction with change & transformation. And yes, in due time I will post them here on this link.

In the meantime>>>>

THE MEANING OF DESTRUCTION
by A.E. Knoch


http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/TheMeaningOfDestruction.htm

"God has now revealed to us His mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill His own great pleasure. And this is the plan. At the right time He will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ we have received an inheritance from God, for He chose us in advance, and He makes all things work out according to His plan."
 
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he-man

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Revelation 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. 

Many Shall be
Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
 
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he-man

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ἀπώλεια άπόλλυμι for its conj. s. 131-D. § 101, ρ. 47; Rob. 317; fut. άπoλέσω Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. άπολώ 1 Cοr 1:19 (Ιs 29:14); 1 aοr. άπώλεσα; 1 pf. άπ-oλώλεκα; fut. mid. άπολουμαι Lk 13: 3; 2 aοr. άπωλόμην; the 2 pf. άπόλωλα serves as a ρf. mid., ρtc. άπολωλώς (Ηοm. + ; inscr., pap., LΧΧ, Εn., Philο, Joseph., Test. 12 Pαtr.).
1. act.—a. ruin, destroy. α. οf pers. (Sir 10: 3) Mk 1: 24; Lk 4: 34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μή έκείνον άπόλλνε do not bring about his ruin Rο 14: 15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20: 4; Εsth 9: 6 ν.1.; 1 Μαcc 2: 37; Jos.,C. Αρ. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίoν Μt 2: 13; Jesus 12: 14; 27: 20; Μk 3:6; 11: 18; Lk 19: 47; B 12: 5; the wicked tenants κακούς κακώς ά. (s. κακός 1 a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Μt 21: 41. τούς υεωρυoύς

Μk 12: 9; Lk 20: 16; τ. Φoνεϊς Μt 22: 7; Τ. μή πιστευσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; παντας Lk 17: 27, 29. W. σώσaι (like Chαritο 2, 8, 1) Js 4: 12; Ηs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Ηerm. Wr. 4, 7) ψνχήν κ. σώμα ά. έν γεέννη Μt 10: 28; ψνχήν B 20: 1; T. ψνχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cf. Sir 20: 22).
2. mid.—a. be destroyed, ruined.
α. οf pers. perish, die 1 C151: 5; 55: 6; B 5: 4,12; D 16: 5; Ηs 6, 2, lf. Αs a cry of anguish άπολλνμεθa we are perishing! (PPetr. ΙΙ 4, 4 νυνί δέ απολλύμεθα) Μt 8: 25; Μk 4: 38; Lk 8: 24. έν μaχaίρη) ά. die by the sword Μt 26: 52. λιμω οf hunger (Εzk 34: 29) Lk 15: 17. τη άντιλουία τoυ Κόρε Jd 11c (because οf 11 a and b it should ρerh. = be corrupted; cf. Pοlyb. 32, 23, 6).

υπο τίνος (Ηdt. 5, 126; Diο Chrys. 13[7], 12) υπό Τ όφεων killed by the snαkes 1 Cοr 10: 9; cf. νs. 10.
Αbs. οf α people perish J 11: 50. Of individuals (Lev 23: 30) Αc 5: 37; 2 Pt 3: 9; 1 Cl 12: 6; 39: 5 (Job 4: 20).—Esp. οf eternal death (cf. Ps 9: 6f [5f]; 36[37]: 20; 67: 3[68: 2]; 91: 10[92: 9]; Is 41: 11) J 3: 16; 17: 12. άπολέσθαι εiς τδν αίώνα perish forever 10: 28 (Bar 3: 3 ήμεiς άπoλλύμενοι τόν αίώνα). άνόμως ά. Rο 2: 12; μωρώς ά. ΙΕρh 17:
'Απολλυων, ονος, δ Αpollyon, the Destroyer, trαnsl. οf 'Αβαδδών (q.v.) Rν 9: 11.—ΑOeρke, ΤW I 396.*
[BAG- A Greek English Lexicon]
 
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FineLinen

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Dear he-man: you must consider a new approach to the Glorious One!

"Destruction, like salvation, is eonian. It is not the end or aim of God. That would be sheer insanity. Imagine a God, Whose very essence is love, desiring to lose a single creature with an endless capacity for loving and glorifying Him! Imagine a man so berserk as to smash a machine which could bring him an unlimited income! We would put such a creature under restraint, where he could not harm others, as well as himself. We have not such a God. He destroys nothing that He cannot restore. He loses nothing that will not return to Him laden with praise and glory for Himself. Destruction is a passing process, not a finished goal. Through God it will work out the welfare of His creatures, and the glory of our Saviour and His Father."
 
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ClementofA

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Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:


The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
"And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
"And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
"And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
"And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
"And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
"And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
"And these last will go away into onian punishment, but the righteous into onian life."

The People's New Covenant, 1925
"And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
"And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
"Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God's faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Jonathan Mitchell N.T. Translation:
"46. "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)."
::Jonathan Mitchell's New Testament Translation::

"....the Old Syriac Version [i.e., the Peshi^to], where the one [i.e., uniform] rendering is still more unmistakably clear: ‘These shall go away to the pain of the olam, and these to the life of the olam’–the world to come.” History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution: The Peshito

"Of the New Testament, attempts at translation must have been made very early, and among the ancient versions of New Testament Scripture the Syriac in all likelihood is the earliest."
Syriac Versions of the Bible, by Thomas Nicol

"The Peshi^to is, as we have said, the earliest version of the New Testament. Its value and authority it is not easy to over-estimate. Westcott says: “Gregory Bar Hebraeus, one of the most learned and accurate of Syrian writers, relates that the New Testament Peshi^to was ‘made in the time of Thaddeus (the apostle), and Abgarus, King of Edessa,’ when, according to the universal opinion of ancient writers, the apostle went to proclaim Christianity in Mesopotamia” (Canon, p. 259). He adds that Gregory assumes the apostolic origin of the New Testament Peshi^ito as certain, and that it preceded all the sects of the Syrian Church, and was received and appealed to by all."

"How, then, was aionios translated by this version? In support of his own translation Prof. Tayler Lewis says, “So is it ever (translated) in the old Syriac version, where the one rendering is still more unmistakably clear.” “These shall go into the pain of the Olam (the world to come), and these to the life of the Olam (the world to come).” He refers to many other passages, as Matt. xix. 16; Mark x. 17.; Luke xviii. 18; John iii.15: Acts xiii. 46; 1 Tim. vi. 12, in which aionios is rendered belonging to the Olam, the world to come."
History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution: The Peshito
 
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