The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

needhugs said:

thanks so much!! i think i will order that NT first, do you suggest kindle or hardcover? and what is an 'EO' scholar?

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I'm old school hard/soft cover. Haven't tried kindle yet. EO is Eastern Orthodox.
For perhaps the best price on the CV:

https://www.concordant.org/product-category/concordant-library/

mark kennedy said:

So tradgic, Jesus says don't fear him who can destroy the body, fear him that can destroy body and soul in he'll.

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In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

FineLinen said:

The Outcome Of Infinite Grace -Dr. Loyal Hurley-

What is contained in the following pages is the result of that study. If it should prove as satisfying to the reader as it has to the writer, we shall have a delightful time together, "rejoicing in hope of the glory of God."

"The last enemy to be destroyed is death!" This was the well-known verse that stopped me in the half-opened door that day and directed all my thinking into fresh channels. "What death?" I queried. "The first death, or the second death?" Is God able to destroy the first death, and not the second death?

The Outcome of Infinite Grace

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thank you, kind Sir... i'm reading it now, it's interesting

FineLinen said:

Dear friends: Greetings again in the Name of all names, the Master Jesus Christ the Lord. Today I awoke with two wordsbreaking upon me 1. Captives & triumphal procession.

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what about captives? hmmm?

FineLinen said:

Why does F.L. know my favorite lady is here? Don't you dare disclose this to my favorite bride. Hugs: the Master is making captives to "follow in His triumphal procession." Robert has escaped just in time! F.L. and many with the same wonderful Clutches about them, cannot escape!

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awww!! may i be a captive of Jesus?? may i be strapped to His back? so that i can never escape again?

i'm your fave lady? well i think you mean i'm the only female HERE lol Universalism takes a stout heart

who was it that posted about the apostle paul being a universalist? was that you? may i have the link again? sometimes i forget to go back and read what i wanted to read.

who is Robert? and why did he want to escape His Wonderful Clutches?

my fave!!!

2 Corinthians 2:14 (CEB) But thank God, who is always leading us around through Christ as if we were in a parade. He releases the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere through us.

a PARADE!!!! and i'll bet it smells like lilacs!

FineLinen said:

Correction: "Mark".

One can only follow in 1 (ONE) "triumphal procession". And, one must be made "captive" to follow the conquering Christ of Glory. Those Clutches of Him make all others pale in comparison!

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oh yes, mark, the one who could disprove all this with one arm behind his back, but oddly enuff left abruptly after saying that... i mean, i for one, would have enjoyed watching him try... you?

FineLinen said:

My dear lady you appear to be catching the idea! I have no idea how many females are following this link, or males for that matter. I do know there are those who at least are looking this way. F.L. wants only to make captives for Christ Jesus! I/we love Him very much!

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i think, amongst the active 'warriors' in this thread, i'm the only female... sort of like Joan of Arc

when i was a very tiny girl, in a terrible situation at home, God revealed Himself to me while i was lying in bed... He wrapped me in His love and i said 'Oh God, I love You SOOOOOO much! Can I do something special for you when i grow up? You know? Like Joan of Arc?'

obviously not a good prayer to pray unless you WANT to spend your life at war

FineLinen said:

The problem, of course, there are lots and lots of Mark's who blindfolded can disprove every last utterance of Jesus Christ and His "captive" and former enemy, St. Paul. My Lord, can you catch the scene of our Lord giving His Life for the all and with His last cry of "forgive them, for they know not what they do">>>>>His torn garments laid at the feet of Saul on the verge of a name change!

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yeah, i suppose, there are all sorts of ways to read the Bible... we can only rest when God settles our hearts on THE TRUTH... i don't think many people get that rest... i used to pray that scripture 'Come to Me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will GIVE YOU REST'... and i could NOT understand why i couldn't get that rest????!!!! and now here it is, building every day, after re-saying the sinner's prayer to the REAL Jesus, Who DOESN'T burn people for eternity'... aaaah, i love Jesus' REST!!! it's heavenly!!!

waaaait a second, they didn't tear Jesus' garment... they cast lots for it, remember?