The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Saint Steven said:

Universalism says it doesn't matter what you believe. The verse (John 3:16) says it does matter what you believe.

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This Universalist says it DOES matter what you believe...but that also, in the fullness of time, you WILL believe what you should.

Saint Steven said:

John 3:16 doesn't have anything to do with Universalism. That's the problem.
Universalism is against John 3:16, not the other way around.
John 3:16 says nothing about Universalism. The two are incompatible.

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A doctrine does not stand or fall on the basis of ONE verse. This Universalist has examined every book, chapter and verse in the Bible.

Wrangler said:

Wow! You really cannot explain how Scripture is contrary to universalism; just re-iterate that it is. Let me use a different subject to illustrate ...

Circles don't have anything to do with Squares. That's the problem.
Squares are against Circular forms, not the other way around.
Circles say nothing about Square forms. The two are incompatible.

Honestly, your level of analysis is virtually non-existent. All you do is repeat mantra's that somehow got into your head. Until you can explain how Scripture goes against universalism, this conversation is dead in the water. (Just re-iterating that it is demonstrates Circular Reasoning).

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I am reminded of an old geometric puzzle called "Squaring the Circle," which involves superimposing a square on a circle of the same perimeter, or a circle on a square, using only a compass and a straightedge.
It cannot be done in two dimensions, for the solution must be in three dimensions.

In a similar way, UR "squares the circle" between us, God, and how we are to be saved. The solution is unexpected: God's Justice, and that not in the form of wrath and damnation, but in the Father sending the Son to die for our benefit. A God Who would do such a thing would not then send anyone to Hell, would He?

Lazarus Short said:

I am reminded of an old geometric puzzle called "Squaring the Circle," which involves superimposing a square on a circle of the same perimeter, or a circle on a square, using only a compass and a straightedge.
It cannot be done in two dimensions, for the solution must be in three dimensions.

In a similar way, UR "squares the circle" between us, God, and how we are to be saved. The solution is unexpected: God's Justice, and that not in the form of wrath and damnation, but in the Father sending the Son to die for our benefit. A God Who would do such a thing would not then send anyone to Hell, would He?

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"Saint Steve" does not seem to grasp 2D analysis, let alone 3-dimensional solutions.

Wrangler said:

"Saint Steve" does not seem to grasp 2D analysis, let alone 3-dimensional solutions.

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You should stop goading him.

Lazarus Short said:

You should stop goading him.

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Impossible. He is goading us.

I often go to a website and make post after post about things I claim not to understand because no one has explained it to my satisfaction. From this foundation, I go on to claim that the advocates of this world view are, therefore wrong - no matter what they say. I use myself - and my ignorance - as the standard of legitimacy. Oh, by the way, I also have all kind of humility and like to be called Saint Goad.

Wrangler said:

"Saint Steve" does not seem to grasp 2D analysis, let alone 3-dimensional solutions.

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Your 'Profile' says; "But I do read the Word daily, obey and pray for the Fruit of the Spirit." Fruit is a worthy attribute to have, as a Christian. But I personally believe the Fruit of the Spirit must be cultivated and not "prayed for". And in this case, as one having a bit more of the Fruit of Patience for Steve, I would like to share how that fruit was cultivated in my life;

ROM 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

BTW, Steve is not a "young skull" either. I'm actually going to assume, older than you. Which is another thing for you to consider, even though I know he has frustrated me here too, and I told him so. But it may have been in a PM, I don't remember, since my skull is 70.

Hillsage said:

Fruit is a worthy attribute to have, as a Christian. But I personally believe the Fruit of the Spirit must be cultivated and not "prayed for". And in this case, as one having a bit more of the Fruit of Patience for Steve.

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Patience is one thing. Wisdom of discernment is another. There is a time to reap and a time to sow. A time to teach and preach and a time to dust off your feet and move on.

Steve cannot explain why what he says is the case. It is an absolute, not an emerging process to be patient about.

Saint Steven said:

It seems to me that the urgency of making a decision to follow Christ in this earthly life is woven throughout the NT. For instance, the "so that" in John 3:16. ...so that whoever believes will not perish...

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Saint Steven said:

Thanks.
I was pointing to the lack of urgency to make a decision in this earthy lifetime. If ultimately everyone will be saved, then ultimately (in reference to gaining eternal life) it doesn't matter what you believe.

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Not having the patience to wade through 149 pages (I'm sorry - I did do at least 7 pages, I think ) I don't know what's covered. So I might repeat something here. (This also means I don't necessarily know the views of others on this thread, but I'll simply give the basics on Christian universalism, as it is commonly taught).

A. The sense of urgency is still there, because hell still does exist.
B. Hell is still a 'fire' of some kind, and still a 'torture' of some kind, but it is a purifying fire for the purposes of leading people to repentance.
C. Repentance still requires putting faith in Jesus to be saved.
D. The only difference is that hell is not eternal but has a limit on its duration. What that limit is could be 10 years, 1,000 years, 10,000 years, we don't know.
E. The only other difference is that repentance will be open to people in hell at some stage - whether it is always open or only open after 10,000 years, that is pure speculation - who knows?
F. The great promise, though, is that God in His wisdom will eventually reconcile all to him - whether in this life or the one to come; whether through the purifying fires and sufferings of this life, or the much more hectic fires in the one to come.

Given all this above, there's no reason for a Christian universalism not to have a sense of urgency. Since we don't know when hell actually ends, and since we don't know when repentance might be available to anyone in hell, we should surely warn people against it. Heck, if it's as bad as scripture says, even 10 years in there would be bad enough! But given that an 'age' can really be as long as God decides, the sense of urgency to stop people from going there is still there.

Caveat: I'm not a univeralist per se, but a hopeful one. But I do think it's good to make sure even views you don't agree with get represented right. For example, I'm not a Calvinist, but I hate it when people misrepresent Calvinism - especially if it's deliberate.

Wrangler said:

Agh, a young skull full of mush with no responsibility to learn on your own initiative. Did you get trophies when you were a kid just for showing up?

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That sort of talk is the express train to an involuntary vacation. Just sayin'

Wrangler said:

Wow! You really cannot explain how Scripture is contrary to universalism...

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Scripture has nothing to say about Universalism.
In the same way that the Gettysburg Address has nothing to say about WWII.

Hillsage said:

You’re right there is an urgency, but that is for the one who is supposed to be saving himself from the sins of this wicked generation if he wants to attain perfection and the immortal life of this age. (This is not UR/Uni teaching BTW.)

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So you agree that the urgency of making a decision to follow Christ in this earthly life is not a part of Universalism? I must be misunderstanding you. But perhaps not.

Lazarus Short said:

A doctrine does not stand or fall on the basis of ONE verse.

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I agree. I had provided several. Another poster wanted to focus on one verse.

Saint Steven said:

Scripture has nothing to say about Universalism.

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Yes, Scripture DOES say something about Universalism. And this has been pointed out numerous times. You don't have ears to hear.

Saint Steven said:

In the same way that the Gettysburg Address has nothing to say about WWII.

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Odd since the Gettysburg Address has a lot to say about WWII - in principle. Do you think the Axis powers in WWII were looking to establish government all around the world - of, for and by the people?

You are attempting to side step the whole issue by refusing to think in principles and grasp metaphors. For instance, the Muslims correctly point out Jesus never said "I am God." By your way of reckoning case closed.

Saint Steven said:

So you agree that the urgency of making a decision to follow Christ in this earthly life is not a part of Universalism? I must be misunderstanding you. But perhaps not.

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You are misunderstanding on purpose, i.e., willful ignorance. Pick 1 Option:
A - Easy, Short Way (Christ now on Earth).
B - Hard, Longer Way

Saint Steven said:

So you agree that the urgency of making a decision to follow Christ in this earthly life is not a part of Universalism? I must be misunderstanding you. But perhaps not.

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I've told you this story before. I shared how my old pastor brought me into his office 'to talk'. He brought up how he'd 'heard' I didn't believe in HELL (common rhetorical error of non believer Christians). When I shared that was kind of true, he was incredulous saying; "But you've brought more people into the church than maybe anyone else. If you believe everyone is going to be saved anyway, why care?" That's when I told him he believed that way because he really didn't understand UR/UNI. And he never asked me a question concerning why he should, either.

Do you remember me telling you this story before Steve? Well I did, and now it's twice. The nominal church appears more worried about the risk of loosing their 'earthly security' in 'the earthly church', than they are of being part of a 'heavenly plan' where God actually wins ALL in the end.

I'd say if you really believed in 'urgency' then you probably would have 'at least' witnessed to every neighbor on the block. What's your percentage in that regard? Especially since you brought 'urgency' up.

So who is really demonstrating 'urgency' anyway? I care that people are lost and living in the hell of this world without Jesus and devoid of 'Christ in them, their only hope' for here and now. People who don't have the love, peace, joy, etc., etc that I do in this world because of Jesus. I actually believe I have a heart for sinners 'more like' Jesus had, and 'less like' I see the church having. Jesus never saved one of those "publicans and sinners" which he was "the friend of" from ETERNAL HELL while on earth. But He certainly did save them from the "works of the devil" in their daily lives of "this wicked generation" we all live in. He saved them by manifesting 'HIS KINGDOM COME'... 'ON EARTH AS IN HEAVEN'. And HE told us to do the same and I AM. That's urgency IMO.

But, also like Jesus, I have a real dislike for the 'religious spirit' from Satan which is also prevalent in the church. You've seen me deal with 'that spirit' a number of times. I can treat modern day pharisees just like Jesus did in his day. And the scalded 'judgmental pharisees' here will jump on me for not 'acting like a loving Christian' toward 'them'. Well, I suppose that is unfortunately true. But then, I'd rather look like a 'Christlike be-ing' in my judgments, than a 'Christian acting' like them. I'll find out at 'my judgment', how well , or how bad, I did.

What has your wife thought of all your time that's been spent here on a UR/UNI thread?

Hillsage said:

What has your wife thought of all your time that's been spent here on a UR/UNI thread?

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Funny you should ask.
I do tell her about things I encounter on the forums(s).
Basically, conspiracy theories are only okay if she brings them up.
She's not thrilled with my politics either. But I do bring her to the voting polls.