The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Wrangler said:

If you are not a universalist, why are you posting in this thread?

Yes there are verses that support it. And there are verses that seem to go against it. I lean toward the former.

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The Christian pastor who first really introduced me to UR stated that, as he saw it I guess, the Bible seems to teach all three, damnationism, annihilationism and universal reconciliation.

Wrangler said:

If you are not a universalist, why are you posting in this thread?

Yes there are verses that support it. And there are verses that seem to go against it. I lean toward the former.

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You come out of my post with 'that' for an understanding and basis for your 'no comment' of a 'comment' on it??????

Read my post's last line again, below;

But, as a UR/UNI believer since the mid 70's I, and hopefully now you, both know that all His judgements and punishments serve 'truly eternal' purposes. Something that Orthodoxy does not know.

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FYI UR is for Universal Reconciliation and UNI is for Universalism/Universalist. I don't like Universalism/Universalist as well because there are non Christian Universal believers. And Orthodoxy is what UR/UNI believers are NOT.

PS EDIT ............Thanks Fine Linen, I was still writing and you posted before I did.

Hillsage said:

As I said earlier Steve, you again aren't even posting to 'understand' anything. You are simply proving how indoctrinated you are, with all your posts ARGUING how we're wrong. It is boring me, because I have studied from your position, because it was mine. It is no longer.

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I'm glad I have a personal relationship with God, instead of just a relationship with a book that can't be trusted. (the Bible)

Anyway, thanks for the extra effort to explain where you are coming from.

Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Lazarus Short said:

Yes, actual definition, but one that suits you. Not all Christians and/or scholars agree with that definition. I think, personally, that the Greek word is more nuanced than its English translation/transliteration. Since you do not comment on the rest of post, do you then not disagree with it?

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I understand that having eternal life does not make us eternal, if that's what you mean. But I suppose that a true Universalist can't believe that they have eternal life, only "age-during" life. Then what?

Anyway, I hope you guys are right. But... ???

Lazarus Short said:

Not all Christians and/or scholars agree with that definition.

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Not much of a platform for discussion when people choose their own definitions. Sounds more like a slippery slope.

Lazarus Short said:

The Christian pastor who first really introduced me to UR stated that, as he saw it I guess, the Bible seems to teach all three, damnationism, annihilationism and universal reconciliation.

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I agree. All three seem to be supported. Which makes no sense.

Saint Steven said:

I understand that having eternal life does not make us eternal, if that's what you mean. But I suppose that a true Universalist can't believe that they have eternal life, only "age-during" life. Then what?

Anyway, I hope you guys are right. But... ???

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Worry not, for First Corinthians 15 tells us that the Son will, when Death has been defeated, turn His kingdom over to the Father, Who will then be All in all. In another place, we are told that of His kingdom there will be no end, so there is your answer. The Bible is sketchy in places, but even the sketch is comforting...

Saint Steven said:

Not much of a platform for discussion when people choose their own definitions. Sounds more like a slippery slope.

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In a lot of languages, words have a spread of accepted meanings. The debate about the Greek word so often translated as "eternal" is, if you will, eternal...or at least it seems so.

Saint Steven said:

I agree. All three seem to be supported. Which makes no sense.

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It bothered me too, so I embarked on a two-year slog through the KJV to see if Damnationism, Annihilationism or Universal Reconciliation were preferred. By the time I was done, I was confirmed in UR, had a new understanding of Hell & Satan, and a deeper love for God.

FineLinen said:

In the Greek language there exists tenses that are not used or available in English, at least without the use of extra vocabulary to explain what was truly meant. John 3:16, the favorite Biblical verse placed on highway billboards, or written on posters at football games, apparently express a verbal “tense” not used in the English language.

That tense is referred to as the continuous present tense. It can be constructed in English using words that accompany the verb. However, there is no single tense that can be assigned to the verb that makes it present continuous. Common English language sentences in different tenses may read like these:

Present Tense: Billy is swimming..

Past Tense: Billy swam.

Future Tense: Billy will swim tomorrow.

Present Continuous Tense (In English): Billy has been swimming all day.

Notice how in English the continuous present tense can be formed by using an auxillary verb plus a past participle prior to the verb (swimming). This is not necessary in Greek, since there’s an actual tense for the verb itself that denotes something happening now and ongoing.

The best translation of John 3:16 would read more like the following:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever “continues or goes on believing” in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever “continues believing” in him is not condemned, but whoever does not “continue believing” stands condemned already because they have not “continued believing” in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Easy believism

The idea that salvation is simply a one time, one-and-done event that doesn’t result or show itself in any real manifested way. “Come to this alter, say this prayer, and you’re saved”.

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That puts paid to "Once saved, always saved," doesn't it?

Lazarus Short said:

Worry not, for First Corinthians 15 tells us that the Son will, when Death has been defeated, turn His kingdom over to the Father, Who will then be All in all. In another place, we are told that of His kingdom there will be no end, so there is your answer. The Bible is sketchy in places, but even the sketch is comforting...

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Yes, too bad we can't trust it. (the Bible)

Saint Steven said:

Yes, too bad we can't trust it. (the Bible)

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Seriously...?

FineLinen said:

Dear Wrangler: Hillsage has been on this thread posting from the very beginning. I assure you he believes in the Restitution of all things!

The Father of all fathers punishes with one objective ONLY: change & transformation.

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Thanks brother. Now, who is going to teach WRANGLER that he is going to make all the Eternal Hellers think that all UR/UNI believers believe God doesn't punish sin at all, even when scripture plainly says he does? And He 'does so' for the same reason for both groups. He does the same for those who are being saved in this age according to 'HIS WILL', as he does for those in the next age, according to 'HIS WILL'. The purgative "consuming fire" which "God is", will cleanse all his creation, when sin and evil has fulfilled His omniscient reason for allowing every bit of it to begin with.

Perhaps it is time to present my conclusions - a condensation of my two-year slog through the KJV. I am not sure if I have posted it in this thread before, but it bears repeating...the reader will profit from checking my Biblical references.

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apperently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. To back that up, the Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation as described in Genesis is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life aurely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

8. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the marginal or center-column reference.

10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.

12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

Lazarus Short said:

Seriously...?

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Isn't that the point? (between the lines)

The Bible says that both "punishment" and "life" are eternal. (see below)
But Universalism claims that the word "eternal" means "age-during". (temporary, not eternal)

Therefore what the Bible plainly says must be false and unreliable if Universalism is true.
Unless I am missing something here.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Hillsage said:

Thanks brother. Now, who is going to teach WRANGLER that he is going to make all the Eternal Hellers think that all UR/UNI believers believe God doesn't punish sin at all, even when scripture plainly says he does? And He 'does so' for the same reason for both groups. He does the same for those who are being saved in this age according to 'HIS WILL', as he does for those in the next age, according to 'HIS WILL'. The purgative "consuming fire" which "God is", will cleanse all his creation, when sin and evil has fulfilled His omniscient reason for allowing every bit of it to begin with.

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I never said that I don't believe God doesn't punish us for sin at all. When Hillsage made the comment about fearing God's punishment because it sounds terrible, it did not sound like a universalist statement. Admittedly, I did not read all 140 pages leading up to that one comment.

Lazarus Short said:

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apperently uncreated by God or anyone else.

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Would "prepared" be the same as created? What exactly is "eternal fire"?
Or "age-during", if you prefer. Is that NOT hell?

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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Where was the rich man in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
Would torment in the agony of fire be hell? (seems so)

Luke 16:23-24
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me... because I am in agony in this fire.’

Lazarus Short said:

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence.

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Isn't this contrary to Universalism?
I thought Universalism taught that hell is a corrective measure to restore all things in creation. It just isn't eternal.