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The rest of the dead live not again

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by claninja, Jun 23, 2022.

  1. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    There are many living and many more who will live, who will partake of the first resurrection through Christ and SHALL reign in time with Him. John purposely did not include them in the martyred saints who have already died who LIVED and REIGNED with Christ in time, who have already died when John wrote. You can categorize it any way you wish.
     
  2. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    John should have just guessed what he saw next?

    Once John saw an event it was already in the past. Time does not stop for writers to write down what they see.
     
  3. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The majority of what is written is still in the hereafter. The last 4 chapters especially.
     
  4. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    I must disagree! I believe the exact opposite, most of what has been written by John through the visions given him have been and are being fulfilled as we go through this symbolic time likened to a thousand years. No I believe the close of redemptive history for humanity is winding down, and the day of Christ's return very near.
     
  5. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I find it interesting that there essentially 2 groups:

    1.) those who partake in the first resurrection during the 1,000 years (believers)

    2.) the rest of the dead that stand before the GWTJ (unbelievers)


    The vision of millennium separates the “resurrection” of the believers to live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years, and unbelievers to face the 2nd death by “Satan’s little season”.

    however, the gospels and epistles teach no such separation….
     
  6. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Rev 20 show us two types of people. Those of the first resurrection, and those who are of the dead. Those of the first resurrection = believers. Those who are of the dead = unbelievers. The first resurrection lived or will live, and reigned or will reign in time likened to a thousand years. Those of the dead live in time, likened to a thousand years, die in unbelief, and when "time shall be no more" (symbolic thousand years), the dead will stand before God at the GWT Judgment.

    Even the Gospels, and in fact the whole of Scripture teaches this same truth, all of humanity falls in one or the other group, there are no exceptions.
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The gospels and epistles did not teach that we would still be the church on earth for 1992 years.

    Should we pretend there has not been almost 2,000 years along with a future 1,000 years?

    Also people have been waiting in sheol since at least the Flood. Why would another 1,000 years matter? When Jesus spoke in the first century, they had already been waiting for over 2,000 years. The dead have been waiting during the last 1992 years, since Abraham's bosom was emptied. That there is another physical resurrection with another 1,000 years of waiting is not a "sudden" and "new" concept.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2022
  8. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    No not a sudden and new concept, just an unbiblical doctrine!
     
  9. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    So John, a disciple of Jesus, is unbiblical. But your explanation is way better than what John wrote.
     
  10. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    It's your understanding the doctrine of John that is unbiblical!
     
  11. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Which is?
     
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    For one, it likely has to do with being Premill in general, that none of it is Biblical. Not me saying that though, Amills saying that.
     
  13. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. Think about it this way. Look at this verse in particular:

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    Notice that the second death has no power over those who share (or have part) in the first resurrection. To me, this verse implies that the only way for any person throughout history to avoid the second death (being cast into the lake of fire - Rev 20:14-15) is to have part in the first resurrection. I believe that presents a major problem for Premillennialism because they have some people avoiding the second death even without having part in the first resurrection, such as any believer who dies during the thousand years or during Satan's little season.

    So, the rest of the dead are everyone else who hasn't had part in the first resurrection, which in my view are unbelievers throughout history.
     
  14. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Then where is the resurrection of the “just” in revelation 20?
     
  15. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    He is saying every one since the first century was wrong who thought there was a literal 1,000 years, I assume. John recorded the 1,000 years back in the first century. He was not talking about the 1,000 years prior to the birth of Jesus. He was not talking about the current 1,000 years they were living in. Yet the most obvious 1,000 years has been rejected for a relatively new take, which is not biblical but human opinion. That would be a figurative millennium that John keeps repeating over and over again from multiple camera angles.
     
  16. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    That would be wrong Premil thought.

    There is a correct Premil view, but you choose to call it nonsense.

    Because if you admit Premil can be right, then Amil could be wrong.
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    And what is one thing that is mentioned in Revelation 20:4? Being beheaded. Unless I'm mistaken, history records that Justin Martyr was beheaded. Justin Martyr was obviously a Premill. I wonder what this means after JM was beheaded, the fact he never believed he was living in the time of the millennium when he was beheaded? Does this mean when he entered heaven upon death that he then became an instant Amill and that he is now no longer anticipating a millennium in the future after he has been raised from the dead?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
  18. rwb

    rwb Well-Known Member

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    David, Justin Martyr professed to be a Christian. It would be a mistake to question his faith. God alone will judge. Therefore believing JM died in faith why would he not be among the living (spirit) souls in heaven, since he lived and reigned with Christ while alive during this time, symbolized a thousand years? So even though Justin may not have realized during his life that the time he partook of the first resurrection of Christ was during the symbolic thousand years that would not change the fact that he has no fear of the second death. Because in life he partook of Christ and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand symbolic years. The criteria for entrance into heaven after physical death (1) have part of the first resurrection in life (2) live and reign with Christ during the symbolic thousand years (3) be blessed and holy (4) be priests of God and Christ. By his life, Justin Martyr seems to have met the criteria for entrance into the Kingdom of heaven after death whether he had perfect understanding of all doctrine or not.
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Assuming the millennium is after the 2nd coming, why would any believer die during the millennium? And why would any believer die after the millennium? Where does it say or remotely suggest that God also devours believers with fire out of heaven after the millennium? That is the only death I see taking place after the millennium.

    There is no mention of believers dying during the millennium nor after. During the millennium believers have returned back to life, not are still dying instead. Granted, because of what is recorded in Isaiah 65:20, some Premills assume there is death taking place during the millennium, except it couldn't be including believers even if there is death still taking place. The first resurrection means to most Premills, maybe not all Premills, that believers have been bodily raised at the beginning of the millennium, thus impossible for them to ever die again.
     
  20. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Since spiritualjew stated the “rest of the dead” doesn’t include believers, which seems to be agreed upon by most in this thread, I’m curios as to where he places the resurrection of the “just” in revelation 20. Looking forward to that response.

     
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