The regulative Principle of Worship

[rmwilliamsll]

yes, thank you for posting the link, i wrote this in my blog this morning concerning it.

essay on PCA divisions at: http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?179
The old neo-orthodox methodology of Biblical interpretation appeals to us. One result, leaders offer a 'take your choice from the bag of views' of Biblical creation because we in our culture have already been infected to academic compromise by public education's prophets of evolution. We were unwilling to accept simply what God says in His Word though many scientists did and have found their scientific affirmations in its light. light.

confirms the importance of the CED issue in the church. however the article is basically a slippery slope argument that i have referred to as the 900 lb gorilla in the back of the room, in HAP.(the history of american presbyterian SS class)

it really is not a particular bill of issues to handle in the church but rather a call to arms. sadly so, it is better for brothers to discuss things then to fight, the takehome message of the unCivil War. name calling doesn't help, having a high value for unity in the midst of diversity helps hold things together until a consensus emerges. the final and serious message for me on issues like this and J.Morecraft is that Presbyterians like to argue theology and we often don't do it very graciously nor brotherly. "and they shall know us by our love" is more than a line in a song for me.

i prize the unity and peace of the church, i find that the problem of denominationalism is after the problem of evil, the most cogent argument an agnostic has for not believing, i am shy of giving him more ammunition then he already has. Schism is a sin, disrupting the unity of the body of Christ is not a light thing to do, perhaps our incessant debate is, like my wife insists, just a little bit juvenile. i don't know. It certainly seems like the attraction and recruitment of loudly arguing people is high into the conservative Presbyterian denominations.

maybe basic personality traits have something to do with the whole situation. i don't know.
but it does sadden me for my church. and i am sure it saddens our common Lord.

 

[edie19]

Does anyone here use the regulative principle in your church meetings? How do you feel about that?

My church follows the regulative principle - and I appreciate it a lot. Reason number 1 - it's Scriptural So at my church we have teaching, prayer, the Lord's table (Acts 2:42)and singing of hymns, psalms and spiritual songs (Ephesians 5:19)

I don't find it legalistic. I do appreciate that we don't incorporate things like announcements, passing an offering plate, kid's plays into the time set aside for the worship of our Lord.

edie

 

[inchristalone221]

I believe my main problem with the RPW is that the churches which practice it do not do so in perfect consistency.

I would point out that many things, among them the senior pastor/minister concept in its entirety, any kind of liturgy, ordination, meeting in buildings rather than in believers homes, and even the mundane things like having a microphone so those in the back can hear are concepts utterly foreign to the church of the New Testament and those things are not commanded in scripture.

I'm not saying that those things are wrong (far be it from me, I love all those things except the first), I'm saying that my view of worship (a middleground between the NPW and RPW) accomodates those things consistently, whereas the RPW does not seem to.

Perhaps the RPW hasn't been clearly articulated to me yet, but there's my two bits for now.

 

[HamletsChoice]

Hello HamletsChoice,

I had problems with several of your accusations and they too can be addressed in time, but I want specifics about the PCA’s supposed compromise on homosexual issues. I see that claim to be blatantly false and would like to see you put up the evidence or retract the accusation.

I am not asking for a lot. You need to supply evidence to support that accusation (and some others) or you need to retract them. We all can be a little loose with the facts when we are trying to make a point. We can all throw out a little hyperbole now and then. If that is what happened here, then fine. Please retract it and we can go on.

Your Conservative Reformed Brother in the PCA,
Kenith

Kenith,

I really wish I could retract and really really wish I didn't even have to say what I said at all! I want the PCA church to be everything it says it is, I want it to succeed above all other denominations because of its wondeful heritage and faithful teachers. I love James Kennedy and R.C. Sproul. I love their churches!

But when it gets to the point when you can't even take your family to the local PCA church without fear of hearing a watered-down sermon on homosexuality, creation, men as leaders in church and family, or witnessing "the feminization of the church" in front of your sons who you are trying to raise as men, then you get a little bitter. Actually, you get a lot bitter.

If I hear one more PCA sermon on how homsexuality is just as bad as any other sin I think I'm going to throw-up. Our local PCA pastor can't even preach a simple sermon on the creation account because, as the elders put it, there are many in the church leadership who hold to theistic evolution.

Our local PCA church is very big and very successful and they love every latest fad and fashion that comes along (only to have to retract later on some). The music is a rock concert, some women who dance to the music in the congregation resemble pole dancers as my wife commented one time, we have ballet dancers, mimes, puppet shows and gorillas that run down our aisles. In short we have a circus!

I can only imagine Joe's experiences as he recounts them to us on occasion. I can see from first hand experience how his split with the PCA had to do with a lot more than just theonomy....

 

[rmwilliamsll]

If I hear one more PCA sermon on how homsexuality is just as bad as any other sin I think I'm going to throw-up. Our local PCA pastor can't even preach a simple sermon on the creation account because, as the elders put it, there are many in the church leadership who hold to theistic evolution.

Is homosexuality a particularly evil sin?
Would you rather hear sermons about how homosexuality is just about the worse possible sin anyone could commit? it that Biblical? How would you go about showing it from Scripture?

I dislike rumors, i appreciate data.
You say there are many in PCA leadershipthat are TE?
where are the church trials as these men are brought up on charges of false subscription to the WCF? where online can i read PCA Teaching Elders preaching Theistic Evolution? It is an issue in the Church, who are these men? You say there are many, please allow me the luxury of a single name that i can email and ask him "what do you believe concerning the age of the earth and the continuity of humanity with living creatures? Don't use rumor to make your argument, be specific, ask your elders to file charges against men who are "crossing fingers" in their subscription to the Confession.

That is one reason i am often attracted to science over theology, science tries as hard as it can to stick to the facts, to argue with them, to wallow in them. In the church we seem to argue personalities, but not even specifices, we clothe them with pronouns, and make it impossible to really deal with the issues.

This way of arguing bugs me, if there is sin in the leadership of the PCA as you describe then root it out with the proper Biblical guidelines to deal with sin. Otherwise this stays at the level of inuendo and rumor and doesn't cure the Church of its sin.

I am not familiar with the preaching of J.Morecraft, but i am of G.North, having read many of his books, on this issue, _Crossed Fingers_. He argues, wisely i think, that the Presbyterian church has problems, but despite all his faults, i appreciate his specificity and desire to engage at the level of particulars.

Does J.Morecraft publish his bill of particulars about why he left the PCA? i'll read it carefully, give me a chance and link to it here.

Are there Theistic Evolutions, even one in Church government, show me the links to their writings and sermons that show this.

Are there PCA pastors watering down the sin of homosexuality, let me see for myself and offer me links to their sermons so i can hear and see for myself.

But deal with the issues as God intended, follow the Biblical pattern, do things in the light, not with general statements that can only cast doubt on the righteousness of good men by painting everyone with this wide brush.

Even references to presbytery trials would help. or lists of charges. just something more that i can study.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Kenith,

I really wish I could retract and really really wish I didn't even have to say what I said at all! I want the PCA church to be everything it says it is, I want it to succeed above all other denominations because of its wondeful heritage and faithful teachers. I love James Kennedy and R.C. Sproul. I love their churches!

But when it gets to the point when you can't even take your family to the local PCA church without fear of hearing a watered-down sermon on homosexuality, creation, men as leaders in church and family, or witnessing "the feminization of the church" in front of your sons who you are trying to raise as men, then you get a little bitter. Actually, you get a lot bitter.

If I hear one more PCA sermon on how homsexuality is just as bad as any other sin I think I'm going to throw-up. Our local PCA pastor can't even preach a simple sermon on the creation account because, as the elders put it, there are many in the church leadership who hold to theistic evolution.

Our local PCA church is very big and very successful and they love every latest fad and fashion that comes along (only to have to retract later on some). The music is a rock concert, some women who dance to the music in the congregation resemble pole dancers as my wife commented one time, we have ballet dancers, mimes, puppet shows and gorillas that run down our aisles. In short we have a circus!

I can only imagine Joe's experiences as he recounts them to us on occasion. I can see from first hand experience how his split with the PCA had to do with a lot more than just theonomy....

HamletsChoice,

Thanks for the further clarification. What you describe is something I have never seen in a PCA Church. I have not been to a great many PCA churches. I have attended PCA churches in Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Virginia, and all were moderate in worship and seemed fairly Reformed.

I understand the local PCA church in your area has (according to your testimony) gone off the "seeker friendly" deep end of the pool and is sound very bad.

I would ask that your criticisms be less broad. If the local PCA church has a theologically weak pastor and elders than please point that out. But try not to point these things on the denomination as a whole. The PCA, as a whole, has put out strong statements on homosexuality, abortion, women in combat, etc...

The PCA like every other human institution has problems. I have differences with certain wings of the church and I am sure they would differ with me (if they knew me) because of some of my ideas.

I have never attended a large PCA church in a major metropolitan area. Perhaps such churches are more "seeker friendly" and less reformed, but these are not "The PCA." What you mention is one church in the denomination.

Again thanks for pointing out the particular problems that you see in your local PCA church.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[rmwilliamsll]

lest i not follow my own advice.

the church trial of Terry Gray
it's OPC but you get the point.
http://www.asa3.org/gray/evolution_trial/

here is something i can read and understand. not rumor, but specifics. details. arguments. etc.

 

[Imblessed]

.......Our local PCA church is very big and very successful and they love every latest fad and fashion that comes along (only to have to retract later on some). The music is a rock concert, some women who dance to the music in the congregation resemble pole dancers as my wife commented one time, we have ballet dancers, mimes, puppet shows and gorillas that run down our aisles. In short we have a circus!...........

Our non-pca church is a seeker sensitive church, and a "Purpose Driven church" and even we don't do all that!! We have the music(which 'can' be a bit rock and rollish sometimes) and then the sermon. We don't have dancers, or skits or shows or anything else. It sounds completely innappropriate. It's definately not the norm, not even with a seeker sensitve church.

 

[HamletsChoice]

HamletsChoice,

Thanks for the further clarification. What you describe is something I have never seen in a PCA Church. I have not been to a great many PCA churches. I have attended PCA churches in Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Virginia, and all were moderate in worship and seemed fairly Reformed.

I understand the local PCA church in your area has (according to your testimony) gone off the "seeker friendly" deep end of the pool and is sound very bad.

I would ask that your criticisms be less broad. If the local PCA church has a theologically weak pastor and elders than please point that out. But try not to point these things on the denomination as a whole. The PCA, as a whole, has put out strong statements on homosexuality, abortion, women in combat, etc...

The PCA like every other human institution has problems. I have differences with certain wings of the church and I am sure they would differ with me (if they knew me) because of some of my ideas.

I have never attended a large PCA church in a major metropolitan area. Perhaps such churches are more "seeker friendly" and less reformed, but these are not "The PCA." What you mention is one church in the denomination.

Again thanks for pointing out the particular problems that you see in your local PCA church.

In Christ,
Kenith

The problem is that Joe's saying it and he was a preacher in PCA for a long time and broke away. I hear many other PCA pastors are breaking away and more and more are threatening to do so. I am just a normal every day husband and father who just so happened to experience it in the few PCA churches I have attended in Georgia and Florida.

For all these reasons I think it's bigger than a local problem so I'll go ahead and stick to my original comments. Now on the other side of the coin, I'm sure there are many other great PCA churches like Kennedy's and Sprouls....which is why I want the PCA to succeed as much as anyone I think.

 

[HamletsChoice]

Is homosexuality a particularly evil sin?

Yes

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I hear many other PCA pastors are breaking away and more and more are threatening to do so. I am just a normal every day husband and father who just so happened to experience it in the few PCA churches I have attended in Georgia and Florida.

For all these reasons I think it's bigger than a local problem so I'll go ahead and stick to my original comments. Now on the other side of the coin, I'm sure there are many other great PCA churches like Kennedy's and Sprouls....which is why I want the PCA to succeed as much as anyone I think.

I appreciate the kind words about Sproul and Kennedy and their respective churches. With that said, I am very disappointed in the rest of your post.

What you have is hear say and innuendo (except for the one church in your area). Such accusations, against a whole denomination, are not biblical. We must have facts to back up such serious charges and so far none are forthcoming from you.

The churches that I know of that have left the PCA have done so for theological reasons, but non over a laxity of the denomination on the items you mention.

What you appear to be doing is repeating unsubstantiated gossip (he said this, she said that, etc...), and that my brother IS sin. I have been in the PCA for twenty years and I have never seen laxity in the things you charge.

I do know that there are problems and differences in the PCA, just as there are in every other denomination and church, but nothing like what you accuse.

We have debates over paedocommunion, liturgy, NT Wright, Norman Shepherd, Theonomy, how often to serve communion, etc... But the things you charge are not matters that I have seen compromise on.

I have not been to all that many PCA churches, but the ones I have been to have been good solid churches.

Again, I ask that you modify your accusations, or produce evidence to substantiate those statements.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[oliveplants]

Hey guys?

I know I'm not allowed to debate with you all, as this isn't my forum, but can I ask you to go back to the topic?

I keep checking this thread to hear about the RPW, and I'm getting a lot of stuff about the PCA, and everything else.

Sorry if I'm out of line; maybe I stirred a hornet's nest in my ignorance, but can we please go back to RPW?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

our church is having an adult class on worship notes are at:
http://www.rinconmountainpca.com/worshipclassnotes.html

one of our members wrote at the opc group on yahoo at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/presbyterians-opc/message/33089
(i just checked, postings are members only, so you will have to join, unless someone wants to extract from the messages and repost here)


most of the class is getting the foundation right and setting the stage to understand the RPW. perhaps we could pull some of these sources into the discussion to help clarify what the issues are?

plus.
i am looking for good places on the net to include as further reading resources for the class.

 

[Irishcat922]

The Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter I
Of the Holy Scripture​

Section 6. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.(12) Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:(13) and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.(14)

Chapter XXI​

Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day

​

1. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.(1) But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.(2)



I have always found this an interesting contrast in the Confession, as to the RPW. Although, I think there is no disparity in doctrine.