• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The rats are jumping off a sinking ship

stevil

Godless and without morals
Feb 5, 2011
8,548
6,729
✟293,653.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
So you don't care that we are headed directly onto a dictatorship as your constitutional rights are being destroyed right in front of your eyes? If this can be done to an ex president how easily could it be done to you on trumped up charges? You say that could never happen? Don't be too sure about that. All you have to do is anger someone with more political pull than you have and more money. That is all it would take.

Our country is neck deep in corruption and as a result I no longer trust any politician. We are being sold out all the way around.
I'm not part of the "we". I am not a USA citizen and I don't live anywhere near USA.

My questions to you, I guess,
1. Do you think it is acceptable for any ex-USA president to face criminal charges for anything?
2. Is there a level of standard where a USA president shouldn't face criminal charges? (i.e. should they be immune from the law for the rest of their lives on some level of criminality? e.g. tax evasion, financial fraud, purgery etc)
3. How do you think USA should go about charging an Ex-president? Should it be done by DoJ, AGs etc?
4. What makes you think the charges against Trump are trumped up? and why don't you think the courts are capable of getting to the truth? and why do you think some people are already pleading guilty?
 
  • Like
Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0

stevil

Godless and without morals
Feb 5, 2011
8,548
6,729
✟293,653.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Destruction of evidence in a criminal prosecution? That's most definitely a crime. It's a felony.
The FBI investigated her, they didn't decide to charge her.
Did she have evidence erased or was she allowed to remove personal emails?

When documents and stuff were taken from Trump in the FBI raid, I believe Trump had people search through that and remove stuff that wasn't documents.
So politicians and the children of politicians are above the law?
No, I think the law should apply equally to everyone.
No president, other than Trump, has ever been charged with keeping documents when they leave office.
Have you been paying attention to this case? Biden, Trump and Pence all had documents in their possession.
But only Trump did other things, such as refuse to return documents, lie about not having the documents, instruct his people to move and hide the documents.
I see that others have already pointed this out to you, but for some reason you just continue to claim it is only about possession of documents?
Why????
 
Upvote 0

stevil

Godless and without morals
Feb 5, 2011
8,548
6,729
✟293,653.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
What Trumps lawyers have been put through is exactly like that and blatantly unconstitutional as every defendant has a right to a lawyer. No lawyer has ever been sued for defending even the most heinous criminals. Jeffrey Dahmer's lawyers weren't sued for defending him and he was as sick in the head as they get.
None of D Trump's lawyers have been sued merely for defending him. Where do you get this information from?
 
  • Like
Reactions: rambot
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
22,695
14,020
Earth
✟246,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Destruction of evidence in a criminal prosecution? That's most definitely a crime. It's a felony.
They were emails…this means that the “sender” is also known, and probably has a copy of this (or that) particular email. Which can be perused to determine if it is (indeed) “evidence” or “Hey Hillary, I’m a Nigerian Prince who needs help with my $100,000,000.00 bank account!”

#bebest
 
  • Like
Reactions: rambot
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Aug 19, 2018
23,311
15,977
72
Bondi
✟377,198.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
No president, other than Trump, has ever been charged with keeping documents when they leave office.
You don't seem to know what he has actually been charged with. It's not simply 'keeping documents'. He is being charged with not returning highly classified documents when asked to do so, lying about what he had and what he had done with them and obstructing justice. He has also been charged with destroying material evidence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rambot
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
22,695
14,020
Earth
✟246,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
You don't seem to know what he has actually been charged with. It's not simply 'keeping documents'. He is being charged with not returning highly classified documents when asked to do so, lying about what he had and what he had done with them and obstructing justice. He has also been charged with destroying material evidence.
Yeah, but that trial won’t commence until the 22nd of Neverber.
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,657
7,215
✟343,893.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
So you don't care that we are headed directly onto a dictatorship

Would you call trying to overturn the results of free and fair elections an act that favours dictatorship, or democracy?

as your constitutional rights are being destroyed right in front of your eyes?

Would you call trying to subvert the constitution and disenfranchise the votes of millions in order to stay in power an act that preserves or destroys constitutional rights?

If this can be done to an ex president how easily could it be done to you on trumped up charges?

As I've never attempted to

A) Illegally overthrow an election;
B) Retain classified documents I wasn't entitled too;
C) Fraudulently value my businesses in order to secure favourable loan rates/reduce tax burdens;
D) Defame a woman I sexually assaulted;
E) Engage in a criminal enterprise

I'm not that concerned.

As someone with a little legal training, I'd be more concerned if someone who did the above WASNT prosecuted. Particularly if they were someone who had previously held a high political office.

You say that could never happen? Don't be too sure about that. All you have to do is anger someone with more political pull than you have and more money. That is all it would take.

And, I'd have the opportunity to defend myself in front of either a judge or jury. That's the thing about the legal system, it's adversarial but everyone gets their day in court (unless, say, they plead guilty before the trial starts).

Our country is neck deep in corruption and as a result I no longer trust any politician. We are being sold out all the way around.

'Corruption' in the US is mostly indirect, and most common in the forms of regulatory capture and 'Dark money' in political campaigns.

Solving the former requires re-erecting and then strengthening the Chinese walls between government and industry. That's HARD and US laws in this area really haven't been improved since the Carter administration. There's been some progress at the administrative/bureaucratic level (mostly thanks to watchdogs like the various GAOs), but given the state of US capitalism this appears to be a bug rather than a feature.

The latter probably requires major legislation through Congress that would revise the Citizens United Supreme Court decision. Good luck with than in the present political environment.

I suggest that the problem is not the politicians themselves (although there at CERTAINLY some dirty politicians). I suggest that the problem is the people pushing various agendas and the broader party machinery, which the politicians end up having to line up behind in order to keep their seats.
 
Upvote 0

stevil

Godless and without morals
Feb 5, 2011
8,548
6,729
✟293,653.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
And, I'd have the opportunity to defend myself in front of either a judge or jury. That's the thing about the legal system, it's adversarial but everyone gets their day in court (unless, say, they plead guilty before the trial starts).
That's the thing.
I know the congressional hearings aren't a court,
But, with that fiasco that Comer brought to Congress. He did a roadshow with the TV networks including Fox News, who initially ran it with high enthusiasm and gusto, and eventually kept asking him, so where are the receipts?

Then he brought it before congress, brought in "witnesses" and everything. And it turned out to be a foolish fiasco, where the witnesses said they hadn't witnessed anything and said there is no evidence towards indicting Joe Biden. It made a total fool of Comer and his Republican friends.

There was also those 60 cases that Trump's team brought to the courts about the "stolen election" where in front of the TVs they were saying massive voter fraud, and then in the courts they were saying, <whisper mode>this isn't about any fraud</whisper mode>
Of course their target audience, those that exclusively watch right wing propaganda shows, they never heard about the witnesses saying there is no evidence or Guliani saying their was no fraud. They just hear the Republican TV personalities like Hannity and Carlson etc saying that the judges were unfair and didn't even look at the evidence. So the bubble remained intact, but those outside the bubble saw how foolish and disgraceful these people were with their big claims and innuendos in front of the cameras, but nothing to show in court or in congress.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Pommer
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
22,695
14,020
Earth
✟246,401.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
know the congressional hearings aren't a court,
But, with that fiasco that Comer brought to Congress. He did a roadshow with the TV networks including Fox News, who initially ran it with high enthusiasm and gusto, and eventually kept asking him, so where are the receipts?
Perhaps you have misunderstood something: the congressional hearings weren’t supposed to provide the “product”; they were the product.
 
Upvote 0

stevil

Godless and without morals
Feb 5, 2011
8,548
6,729
✟293,653.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Perhaps you have misunderstood something: the congressional hearings weren’t supposed to provide the “product”; they were the product.
Yes I get it. To the MAGA faithful, they were spun on Right wing media outlets as explosive evidence based testimony, proving conclusively Joe's guilt.

To those that actually watched it, they were farcical clown shows, proving conclusively that Comer is doing foolish political theatre and constantly lying and creating unsupported innuendo and jumping to unsupported conclusions when in front of the cameras.
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The FBI investigated her, they didn't decide to charge her.
Did she have evidence erased or was she allowed to remove personal emails?

When documents and stuff were taken from Trump in the FBI raid, I believe Trump had people search through that and remove stuff that wasn't documents.

No, I think the law should apply equally to everyone.

Have you been paying attention to this case? Biden, Trump and Pence all had documents in their possession.
But only Trump did other things, such as refuse to return documents, lie about not having the documents, instruct his people to move and hide the documents.
I see that others have already pointed this out to you, but for some reason you just continue to claim it is only about possession of documents?
Why????
If you think the law should be applied equally to all, why haven't Hunter and Joe been prosecuted for fraud? Even the MSM has been admitting lately that what Hunter did is criminal. There used to be videos on line of Joe saying he told the Ukrainians they wouldn't get $1 billion unless they fired the current prosecutor investigating Burisma who had hired Hunter for $500.000 a year when he had no experience in the oil and gas business. Do you see that is criminal behavior?



The FBI knew what was on Hunter's laptop and sat on it until the election was over. Anything wrong with that?


So do you really think you know the truth about these issues?
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Would you call trying to overturn the results of free and fair elections an act that favours dictatorship, or democracy?



Would you call trying to subvert the constitution and disenfranchise the votes of millions in order to stay in power an act that preserves or destroys constitutional rights?



As I've never attempted to

A) Illegally overthrow an election;
B) Retain classified documents I wasn't entitled too;
C) Fraudulently value my businesses in order to secure favourable loan rates/reduce tax burdens;
D) Defame a woman I sexually assaulted;
E) Engage in a criminal enterprise

I'm not that concerned.

As someone with a little legal training, I'd be more concerned if someone who did the above WASNT prosecuted. Particularly if they were someone who had previously held a high political office.



And, I'd have the opportunity to defend myself in front of either a judge or jury. That's the thing about the legal system, it's adversarial but everyone gets their day in court (unless, say, they plead guilty before the trial starts).



'Corruption' in the US is mostly indirect, and most common in the forms of regulatory capture and 'Dark money' in political campaigns.

Solving the former requires re-erecting and then strengthening the Chinese walls between government and industry. That's HARD and US laws in this area really haven't been improved since the Carter administration. There's been some progress at the administrative/bureaucratic level (mostly thanks to watchdogs like the various GAOs), but given the state of US capitalism this appears to be a bug rather than a feature.

The latter probably requires major legislation through Congress that would revise the Citizens United Supreme Court decision. Good luck with than in the present political environment.

I suggest that the problem is not the politicians themselves (although there at CERTAINLY some dirty politicians). I suggest that the problem is the people pushing various agendas and the broader party machinery, which the politicians end up having to line up behind in order to keep their seats.
There was never an investigation by the government into the fraud of the 2020 election. If you will remember a lot of the controversy was over mail in ballots.

Here's a case where a mayor has been charged with election fraud for exactly that. He was just clumsy enough to get caught. Remember New Jersey is a state that goes Democrat all the time in presidential elections.

 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Would you call trying to overturn the results of free and fair elections an act that favours dictatorship, or democracy?



Would you call trying to subvert the constitution and disenfranchise the votes of millions in order to stay in power an act that preserves or destroys constitutional rights?



As I've never attempted to

A) Illegally overthrow an election;
B) Retain classified documents I wasn't entitled too;
C) Fraudulently value my businesses in order to secure favourable loan rates/reduce tax burdens;
D) Defame a woman I sexually assaulted;
E) Engage in a criminal enterprise

I'm not that concerned.

As someone with a little legal training, I'd be more concerned if someone who did the above WASNT prosecuted. Particularly if they were someone who had previously held a high political office.



And, I'd have the opportunity to defend myself in front of either a judge or jury. That's the thing about the legal system, it's adversarial but everyone gets their day in court (unless, say, they plead guilty before the trial starts).



'Corruption' in the US is mostly indirect, and most common in the forms of regulatory capture and 'Dark money' in political campaigns.

Solving the former requires re-erecting and then strengthening the Chinese walls between government and industry. That's HARD and US laws in this area really haven't been improved since the Carter administration. There's been some progress at the administrative/bureaucratic level (mostly thanks to watchdogs like the various GAOs), but given the state of US capitalism this appears to be a bug rather than a feature.

The latter probably requires major legislation through Congress that would revise the Citizens United Supreme Court decision. Good luck with than in the present political environment.

I suggest that the problem is not the politicians themselves (although there at CERTAINLY some dirty politicians). I suggest that the problem is the people pushing various agendas and the broader party machinery, which the politicians end up having to line up behind in order to keep their seats.
Do you recall the Democrats trying through every channel possible to overturn the election of George Bush? Remember all the "hanging chad" controversy? So if the Democrats can do it why can't a Republican? If it's evil for one party to do it's evil for both parties.
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,660
1,017
Visit site
✟111,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
They were emails…this means that the “sender” is also known, and probably has a copy of this (or that) particular email. Which can be perused to determine if it is (indeed) “evidence” or “Hey Hillary, I’m a Nigerian Prince who needs help with my $100,000,000.00 bank account!”

#bebest
Hillary claimed she only used a private server to email her family, child and grandkids. Does that pass the smell test? Everyone I know uses a gmail or other account that purpose. Remember the sarcastic response to being asked if she had wiped the server? You mean like with a cloth or something?

She had very little fear of the entire business being investigated or she wouldn't have been sarcastic.

Here is an interview of Martin Shkrelli by Tucker Carlson. You might come away with a different view of both government corruption and Hillary if you watch it.

 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟545,630.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

stevil

Godless and without morals
Feb 5, 2011
8,548
6,729
✟293,653.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
If you think the law should be applied equally to all, why haven't Hunter and Joe been prosecuted for fraud?
Have they been charged?
Even the MSM has been admitting lately that what Hunter did is criminal.
Isn't there a special council investigation into Hunter right now?

There used to be videos on line of Joe saying he told the Ukrainians they wouldn't get $1 billion unless they fired the current prosecutor investigating Burisma who had hired Hunter for $500.000 a year when he had no experience in the oil and gas business. Do you see that is criminal behavior?
What you are hearing from right wing media is very mixed up and confused.
Have you researched what the other side is saying about this?

So do you really think you know the truth about these issues?
I feel quite comfortable about my knowledge of the Joe Biden/Viktor Shokin situation. Nothing untoward to see there.

I don't know enough about the Hunter laptop stuff. It's all very confusing.
The recent Republican hearing trying to tie things on Joe was a fiasco.

The recent nonsense about the government pointing Hunter to the USA Embassy in China, was a silly thread.
It would be great if someone could create a thread and post serious stuff, including fact that are pertinant to crimes in the Hunter laptop situation rather than just nonsense stuff.
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,657
7,215
✟343,893.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
There was never an investigation by the government into the fraud of the 2020 election.

Sure there were, at the county, state and federal levels. As well as by executive branch agencies (FBI, DoJ and CISA) and an independent agency (Election Assistance Commission).

There were state investigations in Wisconsin, Georgia, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Arizona (probably others, those are just the ones I can remember). There was a federal investigation, led by Senate Republicans. There were third party non-government investigations (those Cyber Ninja weirdos).

None of them found fraud that would have changed any of the outcomes of the 2020 election.

Here's a reasonable overview of what the investigations found:

Lost Not Stolen: The Conservative Case that Trump Lost and Biden Won the 2020 Presidential Election

It's 72 pages long, but I encourage you to read it. It's thorough and should put to bed any notions about fraud playing a role in Trump's 2020 loss.

If you will remember a lot of the controversy was over mail in ballots.

I remember a lot of controversy about trying to deny expansions of mail in ballots. I remember some court rulings that certain votes were ineligible. I also remember no outcome determinative fraud being found in mail in ballots.

I wonder, who's interest is it in to attempt to make it harder to vote, not easier?
 
Upvote 0

stevil

Godless and without morals
Feb 5, 2011
8,548
6,729
✟293,653.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Here is a video of Biden talking about his "election fraud team".

LOL. So do you really think Joe Biden put together a team to perform Voter fraud and went to a press conference and told everyone about it?

There is a level of grace and dignity an audience could hold themselves to, with regards to trying to understand what these politicians are actually saying and are trying to do. Rather than trying to take the childish approach and argue about each and every word.
Rather than saying "But you said... So I'm holding you to that, no matter what you say now!"
It would make more sense to go back to them and ask for clarification. "You said this... Did you really mean that?"
 
  • Winner
Reactions: KCfromNC
Upvote 0

rambot

Senior Member
Apr 13, 2006
28,312
15,976
Up your nose....wid a rubbah hose.
✟449,402.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Hillary claimed she only used a private server to email her family, child and grandkids. Does that pass the smell test? Everyone I know uses a gmail or other account that purpose. Remember the sarcastic response to being asked if she had wiped the server? You mean like with a cloth or something?

She had very little fear of the entire business being investigated or she wouldn't have been sarcastic.

Here is an interview of Martin Shkrelli by Tucker Carlson. You might come away with a different view of both government corruption and Hillary if you watch it.

Why, as I sit in my family room and ponder the vastness of the universe, would I EVER listen to anything coming from the gob of Martin Shkreli?
 
Upvote 0