The rats are jumping off a sinking ship

[stevil]

Mark Meadows

Mark Meadows Given Immunity To Testify About Trump And 2020 Election, Report Says

Meadows reportedly talked to the special counsel at least three times, once in front of a grand jury.

www.forbes.com

Mark Meadows, former President Donald Trump’s chief of staff, was granted immunity for testifying under oath about Trump’s role in attempting to overturn the 2020 election results

Jenna Ellis

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/24/jenna-ellis-plea-deal-georgia/

Jenna Ellis, a former lawyer for Donald Trump’s 2020 campaign, pleaded guilty Tuesday to illegally conspiring to overturn Trump’s 2020 election loss in Georgia.

The deal allows her to avoid jail time in exchange for providing evidence that could implicate other defendants and agreeing to testify in any future trials.

Sidney Powell

Sidney Powell pleads guilty over efforts to overturn Trump's loss in Georgia and agrees to cooperate

Lawyer Sidney Powell pleaded guilty to reduced charges Thursday over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s loss in the 2020 election in Georgia.

apnews.com

Lawyer Sidney Powell pleaded guilty to reduced charges Thursday over efforts to overturn Donald Trump’s loss in the 2020 election in Georgia.

As part of the deal, she will serve six years of probation, will be fined $6,000 and will have to write an apology letter to Georgia and its residents. She also recorded a statement for prosecutors and agreed to testify truthfully against her co-defendants at future trials.

Kenneth Chesebro

Trump co-defendant Kenneth Chesebro strikes plea deal with Georgia prosecutors

As jury selection was beginning, Judge McAfee said a deal had been negotiated.

www.nbcnews.com

Chesebro pleaded guilty to a felony count of conspiracy to commit filing false documents and agreed to testify in the case as part of the deal.


This is just the beginning, this list will grow. Be interesting to see who else the prosecutors are willing to do plea deals with or give immunity, or at what stage do they say, "well your on the list, we are getting testimony against you, you're not getting any deals" or "well, we have enough evidence, enough testimony, we don't need your testimony, sorry no deal for you"

Also be interesting to see how the MAGA faithful fob all this off. Do they just start saying stuff, or do they wait until Trump and Fox News etc gives them narrative to parrot?

 

[Bradskii]

Trump's lawyers: 'The election was stolen.'
All reasonable people: 'They just lied to you.'
MAGA: 'No they didn't.'

Short pause...

Trump's lawyers: 'We lied to you.'
All reasonable people: 'Didn't we already tell you that?'
MAGA: Crickets...

 

[rambot]

Trump's lawyers: 'The election was stolen.'
All reasonable people: 'They just lied to you.'
MAGA: 'No they didn't.'

Short pause...

Trump's lawyers: 'We lied to you.'
All reasonable people: 'Didn't we already tell you that?'
MAGA: Crickets...

At one time there were people who thought Richard Nixon was honest and moral. I wonder how many of them still exist and how long it took some to come around.

 

[Bradskii]

At one time there were people who thought Richard Nixon was honest and moral. I wonder how many of them still exist and how long it took some to come around.

I'll gladly admit that it takes time. When one invests so much into a belief it's simply not possible to immediately flip to an opposing view even when presented with what appears to be incontrovertible evidence. Which is actually a good thing. Otherwise we'd all be changing our opinions constantly. Healthy scepticism is actually a good thing.

But...there comes a point where it's not possible to reject the evidence any longer. And when those who lied to you are now literally saying 'We lied to you' then some self respect must come into play. And one needs to confront the fact that they were lies. Which is not an easy thing to do.

We've had Fox telling everyone that they lied. You had one of their presenters (no way am I going to use the term journalist) telling everyone that what he said shouldn't be trusted. Now we have one lawyer after another admitting that they lied and broke the law. We're at the point where any reasonable person must start to admit, even to themselves if no-one else, that the people they have been trusting are simply not trustworthy.

So what will be the result of this? Well, the desperate 'what-about-ism' will be prevalent. The dial will be turned up to 11. Anything and everything will be the fault of 'the other guy' because some will not be able to take that step of admitting that they were fooled by 'their guy'.

 

[keith99]

At one time there were people who thought Richard Nixon was honest and moral. I wonder how many of them still exist and how long it took some to come around.

Compared to many politicians today Nixon was a paragon of virtue.

In the 1960 election Nixon had better grounds to question the results in Illinois than any of the recent recounts. There were also reasons to contest Texas and several other states. Many Republicans wanted to do so. Nixon declined to do so for the good of the country.

 

[durangodawood]

.....
But...there comes a point where it's not possible to reject the evidence any longer. And when those who lied to you are now literally saying 'We lied to you' then some self respect must come into play. And one needs to confront the fact that they were lies. Which is not an easy thing to do.
.....

You dont understand the grip that political commitments have on people in the US, especially in the new right wing. Its deeper than opinion. Many people have built their own personal identities around their political affiliations. They reinforce it by marinating in right wing media for as many hours a day as they possibly can.

Unwinding all that requires too much self examination and risks social alienation from the peer group.

 

[Brihaha]

You dont understand the grip that political commitments have on people in the US, especially in the new right wing. Its deeper than opinion. Many people have built their own personal identities around their political affiliations. They reinforce it by marinating in right wing media for as many hours a day as they possibly can.

Unwinding all that requires too much self examination and risks social alienation from the peer group.

To be honest, taking an honest moral self-inventory is exhausting. And people who live in denial avoid them like a plague. I know something about denial myself, having been an alcoholic in my youth. To be politically tribal requires a measure of denial from a person. Tribalism tends to lead folks to offer inventory of their opponents rather than themselves. A fine breeding ground for hypocrisy.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

built their own personal identities around their political affiliations.

Yes, and have weaved in their religious beliefs.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Its deeper than opinion. Many people have built their own personal identities around their political affiliations. They reinforce it by marinating in right wing media for as many hours a day as they possibly can.

Speaking of rightwing media, here are (printable) comments on the story about Meadows on GETTR [note, box may contain up to 47% Russian content by weight]

Just another Uniparty coward that the swamp sent in as a saboteur. If he violates privileged confidentiality he should swing. If he lies, which is highly likely, he should be begging for a quick death.

He will get no immunity from the people. Never to be trusted again in whatever he does or wherever he gos. Will be used and abused the rest of his life. Just saying. Enjoy!

Betrayal of the worst sort Mark Meadows. I never would have believed you would do anything to save your own hide. You too have bowed your knees to that putrid communist Jack Smith. You join the ranks now of William Barr and a host of others who are right in line with you. Disgusting.

And the immunity thing is to portray that a crime was committed

I still don't get the point that the corrupt Jack Smith is attempting to make here. The big news is Meadows says that he TOLD Trump that he lost the election So [doggone] what! Since Mark Meadows is NOT Jesus Christ, he is NOT the absolute all-knowing authority on what is true.

 

[evoeth]

Trump's lawyers: 'The election was stolen.'
All reasonable people: 'They just lied to you.'
MAGA: 'No they didn't.'

Short pause...

Trump's lawyers: 'We lied to you.'
All reasonable people: 'Didn't we already tell you that?'
MAGA: Crickets...

At this point the only through lines in MAGA are chaos, lawlessness, and raw power. Zero values.

 

[durangodawood]

....that the swamp sent in as a saboteur......

Its pretty much magical thinking at this point. Maga-ical thinking?

 

[LizaMarie]

Compared to many politicians today Nixon was a paragon of virtue.

In the 1960 election Nixon had better grounds to question the results in Illinois than any of the recent recounts. There were also reasons to contest Texas and several other states. Many Republicans wanted to do so. Nixon declined to do so for the good of the country.

This is correct, and this was during the Cold War, and Nixon knew that it would weaken us in the face of our adversaries to continue to contest the election, which is why he chose that path to concede. Something Trump doesn't seem to understand. Our adversaries take advantage of times of chaos and division as witness today. Trump should have conceded after the electoral college met to certify votes in mid- December 2020.

 

[evoeth]

This is correct, and this was during the Cold War, and Nixon knew that it would weaken us in the face of our adversaries to continue to contest the election, which is why he chose that path to concede. Something Trump doesn't seem to understand. Our adversaries take advantage of times of chaos and division as witness today. Trump should have conceded after the electoral college met to certify votes in mid- December 2020.

Nixon's main mistake was hiring G. Gordon Liddy. Nixon's increasing paranoia created a pressure in his bureaucracy that drove a lunatic like Liddy to extreme measures. Though based on the rest of Liddy's life, that isn't really saying much.

In the end, Nixon did take responsibility for it.

 

[stevil]

This is correct, and this was during the Cold War, and Nixon knew that it would weaken us in the face of our adversaries to continue to contest the election, which is why he chose that path to concede. Something Trump doesn't seem to understand. Our adversaries take advantage of times of chaos and division as witness today. Trump should have conceded after the electoral college met to certify votes in mid- December 2020.

It's not just D Trump. It's all his enablers within the party.
Just recently, they pulled Tom Emmer from the speaker race because of his willingness to certify the 2020 election.
It's just utter nonsense, and as long as the Republican members keep supporting Trump like this, keep pandering to these nonsense things, they are holding the entire party hostage and making utter fools of themselves.

If Trump was spouting all this nonsense but his party ignored it, then they would easily be rid of him and his nonsense. They could then form policies and act with integrity and dignity.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Also be interesting to see how the MAGA faithful fob all this off. Do they just start saying stuff, or do they wait until Trump and Fox News etc gives them narrative to parrot?

My "good, conservative Christian" family members are split between raging against the people possibly turning on Trump (I have no doubt they're posting veiled threats on conservative sites), and sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la la la la"...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My "good, conservative Christian" family members are split between raging against the people possibly turning on Trump (I have no doubt they're posting veiled threats on conservative sites), and sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la la la la"...

Sounds like a wonderful family, Todd!

 

[LizaMarie]

It's not just D Trump. It's all his enablers within the party.
Just recently, they pulled Tom Emmer from the speaker race because of his willingness to certify the 2020 election.
It's just utter nonsense, and as long as the Republican members keep supporting Trump like this, keep pandering to these nonsense things, they are holding the entire party hostage and making utter fools of themselves.

If Trump was spouting all this nonsense but his party ignored it, then they would easily be rid of him and his nonsense. They could then form policies and act with integrity and dignity.

I have long said that the House should have voted to impeach and the Senate should have voted to convict. Honestly Mike Pence should have removed him via the 25th amendment after January 6th. Then he would not be eligible to run a 2nd time and we conservative Republicans could choose between the several good candidates running now. It looks like Trump will be the nominee barring something happening, as he is so ahead
in the polls, and he has good people convinced that all these indictments are nothing but a political witch hunt. I say this as someone who did vote for him in 2020.

 

[stevil]

I have long said that the House should have voted to impeach and the Senate should have voted to convict. Honestly Mike Pence should have removed him via the 25th amendment after January 6th. Then he would not be eligible to run a 2nd time and we conservative Republicans could choose between the several good candidates running now. It looks like Trump will be the nominee barring something happening, as he is so ahead
in the polls, and he has good people convinced that all these indictments are nothing but a political witch hunt. I say this as someone who did vote for him in 2020.

They are all cowards. Noone (well, very few) were willing to stand up and risk their political careers to oust D Trump.
They were (are) afraid of losing support of D Trump's base. Many were secretly hoping the Democrat party and the Justice system could deal with D Trump without them having to reveal themselves as not being 100% loyal to D Trump.

If they stood up, they could have been rid of Trump after just 4 years. But instead they had the 4 Trump presidential years, the 4 Biden years and if D Trump wins the next election (and somehow avoids jail), then potentially another 4 years. = 12 years of being held hostage and looking like the Republican party is one of hate and nonsense and willing to break all rules, laws and constitution to hold power and benefit D Trump.

 

[Gary K]

After reading part of this thread I'm amazed at the group think. When in our history have there ever been political prosecutions like Trumps? I'm a big history buff and I can't remember any except after the civil war of Abraham Lincoln's vice president who took over after Lincoln was assassinated. I'm no fan of Trump's as I consider him dishonest, but the political skullduggery in his prosecution is insane. And who considers Democrats as lily white themselves? All politicians are dishonest and pander to the lowest possible denominator.

Here is quote from a guy who is probably the best political analyst of all time,

Alexis de Tocqueville > Quotes​

(?)

Showing 1-30 of 562
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville

That is what is going on right now. Biden is spending us into oblivion and so was Trump. Our published debt is over $30 trillion. Do you know how long that takes to repay? If we didn't run a deficit budget ever again or have to pay interest on the money we owe it would take, at $1 trillion a year 30 years/ You add interest to that and it is already at a level we could never pay off, And if you think the government can just keep on printing money you're sadly mistaken. That;s what is causing your grocery bill to skyrocket. It's called inflation.

Our real debt is far beyond that. You can't even find that on the internet any more. It's called unfunded liabilities. It's created when Congress votes to spend money but doesn't fund the bill. That debt was more than $120 trillion when Obama was in the middle of his terms in office. And spending has only gotten much greater than when he was in office. It's probably well over $200 trillion now. Our yearly interest is now more than our military spending every year. We are flat out bankrupt as a nation.

 

[Bradskii]

I'm no fan of Trump's as I consider him dishonest...

There's a clue there if you're looking for an answer.