The Rapture

[artnalex]

Onesheep,

from what I remember the pre-trib view that is being espoused (Darby-ism) is different than some of the views held by a few of the early church fathers.

It should be noted that the Church has never embaced a pre or post millennial position.

 

[Disciple 3]

Oh, ok. I just don't see any other actuall scripturall evidence for anything otherwise than a Pre-Tribulatin Rapture. I did review the other views, I chose the one I chose. I have heard all kinds of things against the Pre-trib but I am yet to hear any valid truth, other than God would want to test his people to see if they are worthy. In fact, the bible says none are worthy. So I fail to see how this would be the case. I will try to get the book, but I don't know If I will be able to.

You do have to admit that there is a lot of evidence for the Pre-trib, at least in my eyes.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Kern,

I am sure by your statement, that your definition of rapture is what is being promoted all over the place now, and that is a secret pre-trib rapture. However, that is just one definition of rapture, and I do believe that you are correct in saying that the Catholic Church does not believe in that. However, the Catholic Church does believe in a rapture, with the definition as "being caught up in God" or something like that. We will be raptured into heaven, however just not in the way that the Left Behind series promotes.

 

[kern]

I meant any definition of "rapture" that involves some people going to Heaven while others are still stuck on Earth.

-Chris

 

[Christy4Christ]

I meant any definition of "rapture" that involves some people going to Heaven while others are still stuck on Earth.

-Chris

If it happens I pray I will not be the one stuck on earth! Anyway instead of speculating let's make sure we are on our best behavior so we can be first in line to get caught up!

 

[Miss Shelby]

Actually that's not a true statement and it's a common misconception.

A number of the ECF wrote about a pre-trib rapture, and there are other writings starting from the 7th Century.

Pre-trib rapture is not a recent notion.

There were not more than a few bizarre theory written about by Church Fathers which never made it into the canon. Universalism in another one that comes to mind. The key is to look at what the Church deemed worthy to teach. The Church Fathers were human.

The notion of a secret rapture became popular and more wide spread less than a few hundred years ago.

Michelle

 

[Miss Shelby]

Try looking at the logic of a pre tribulation rapture this way. The worst time in history ever to be recorded, the Lord takes up all of His children, the believers, and leaves a bunch of people behind, some who will become saved.

Really?

Thousands if not millions of new believers are left to fend for themselves in the worst time man will ever know? The Lord is going to leave them with no shepherds, no leaders, nothing to guide them save for a few video tapes left in the safes of some good hearted pastors who knew they wouldn't be around to see it? Is that really what we believe about the shepherding heart of the King?

That would be like abandoning a bunch of infants and children during world war 3 and hoping like heck they made it through. This bizarre idea of a secret rapture distorts the true charachter of God.

Michelle

 

[Disciple 3]

Thousands if not millions of new believers are left to fend for themselves in the worst time man will ever know? The Lord is going to leave them with no shepherds, no leaders, nothing to guide them save for a few video tapes left in the safes of some good hearted pastors who knew they wouldn't be around to see it? Is that really what we believe about the shepherding heart of the King?

Do you know what the beautiful thing is? This is not true. If you were to look at Revelation 4:3 "And he who sat on the throne was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance and there was a rainbow around the throne". If you remember the story of Noah and the ark you remember the signifigence of the rainbow. The rainbow is the signal of his ever lasting covenant with all living things. God said he would never forget us and that every time we see the rainbow to remember that. So if God has a rainbow around his throne that signifies that he will NEVER EVER forget us.

Actually 2 Thessalonians says that the Man of Evil will not be revealed until our gathering unto the Lord. It states that the Holy spirit restrains the evil one and that he cannot appear until HE, the Holy Spirit, is out of the way and is no longer restraining him.

 

[+Redeemed]

Actually 2 Thessalonians says that the Man of Evil will not be revealed until our gathering unto the Lord. It states that the Holy spirit restrains the evil one and that he cannot appear until HE, the Holy Spirit, is out of the way and is no longer restraining him.

Hey there Disciple 3. I was just wondering what you are saying here. This part of 2Thessalonians is all about explaining "when" the Day of the Lord is, right? The Thessalonians were thinking that Day had already come. The writer explains that the Day of the Lord is when Jesus will destroy the man of evil. So wouldn't that mean that the man of evil has by then already done his thing. And if he's already done his thing, aren't we by then at the *end* of the tribulation?

"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.". (2 Thessalonians 2:8)

I'm just not sure where you're coming from is all bro.

I've heard/read the arguements for/against pre-trib, and I've personally settled on: no pre-trib rapture. But of course folks are free to believe what they like in this regard.

Besides I figure if I believe I may be going through the tribulation, I'm going to be prepared emotionally/psychologically/spiritually. And if I end up getting raptured instead, well....

HALLELUJAH!!




.

 

[+Redeemed]

I agree here. I still do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, but we can say that Enoch was raptured. I guess a more Catholic term would be "assumed." We know that Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and Mary were all assumed in to Heaven.

Hey ps139, wanna hear something *strange*.

What else, right?



All day while walking my route (I'm a letter-carrier) I was planning on sending you a PM. Why you? Because you seem to be the one answerring most of my questions I guess.

And what was my question?

It was about Mary being "assumed" into heaven.

And what does the first post I read from you today mention?

Yup.

So I'll ask the question here then: Why is it believed Mary was assumed into heaven? (I already know about Moses, Elijah, and Enoch). And why does she appear to people when the other 3 don't (I know Moses & Elijah appeared with Jesus and that they will appear again in Jerusalem near the end).

BTW 139, I appreciate you taking the time to deal with my queries.




.

 

[Michelina]

We'll be raptured on the last day.

 

[KC Catholic]

We need to stay focused on preaching the Good News of Christ's resurrection and salvation, feeding the poor, tending to the sick, visiting the imprisoned and stop focusing the skies for Christ's glorious return. It will happen in God's time - by his plan.

 

[geocajun]

We'll be raptured on the last day.

Very true, but it should not be confused with the protestant notion of the rapture which was created this century.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Well, I don't really know how the Church feels about the Rapture. But I believe in a Pre-Trib. There is simply to much scripture to back it up.

I don't want to offend you Disciple3 , but I found this in Catholic answers. Were you aware of this argument? My apologies if you have heard it.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).

 

[ps139]

All day while walking my route (I'm a letter-carrier) I was planning on sending you a PM. Why you? Because you seem to be the one answerring most of my questions I guess.

And what was my question?

It was about Mary being "assumed" into heaven.

And what does the first post I read from you today mention?

Yup.

Thats pretty cool!!

So I'll ask the question here then: Why is it believed Mary was assumed into heaven?

I do not know the basis for this in Tradition. My guess is that since she was sinless, she would not suffer natural death? (Note: Jesus did not suffer natural death, He was killed- voluntarily "led like a lamb to the slaugher (Is.53). Important difference here). But your question prompts me to look up the history of this belief. I suspect it comes from John or one of his dicsiples. John was closest to Mary and probably lived with her and cared for her.

(I already know about Moses, Elijah, and Enoch). And why does she appear to people when the other 3 don't (I know Moses & Elijah appeared with Jesus and that they will appear again in Jerusalem near the end).

I guess I'll have to answer your question with another question: How many abodiginals do you see modeling? (LOL If you haven't seen Zoolander you won't get the joke...I couldn't resist. I'f you've seen Zoolander you'll understand why )

Back to seriousness - my question is why were Moses, Elijah, Enoch, and Mary assumed into heaven? Why not anyone else? Who knows?
Also, Mary is our Mother. In John 19 when Jesus gave Mary to John as his mother, it was in a spiritual, and universal sense. (John already had a mother, why would he need another?) So, who better to make appearances than the mother? We know that Jesus will not come again till the end of the world, so I do not think He would make appearances. But that does open up a good question, have there been any reported appearances of other saints??

BTW 139, I appreciate you taking the time to deal with my queries.

Any time brother. I like this stuff

 

[Michelina]

Very true, but it should not be confused with the protestant notion of the rapture which was created this century.

True, geo. We never translated the word that way. The Vulgate had the concept but it was translated as 'snatched up' usually. The Protestants who invented this theory really are showing the mistake of taking verses out of context. If you read the Eschatological discourses and keep in mind what all three say, plus Paul, you definitely come away with a sense that Jesus was forewarning us about something we were definitely going to go through. Is it the old Itching-Ears Disease or is there some other reason for this 'rapture' thing? Naturally, it's not going to be pleasant but Jesus will be with us.

My guess: with all the talk of the imminent second coming and the tribs, many people might have wished to find a way out, and when the Rapture theory was promoted, people happily bought into it . It's human.

Thank God for the Church. He built it just right. Of course.

I have to go to pray now.

Later.

 

[+Redeemed]

Always deeper in your debt ps139....

Now I've got 2 reasons to see Zoolander (the other is to shut my friend up who keeps telling me to see it).

But right now, I've got a hockey game to watch.....

 

[ps139]

But right now, I've got a hockey game to watch.....

..typical Canadian.... j/k