The Rapture theory is true?

Spiritual Jew said:

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

I am honestly completely baffled as to how you would wonder whether this is describing the wrath of God or not. Isn't it obvious?

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It is obvious to me. But we must understand John's use of Aorist verbs almost exclusively. When it says "has come," the Greek word behind that has NO TIMING or TENSE at all. It cannot be translated accurately because all English verbs have tense.

I am almost finished writing a book in critique of Rosenthal's "The Prewrath Rapture of the Church." Both He and Van Kampen are adamant that this verse 17 is only the WARNING for the start of Wrath, but that wrath really does not begin until the 7th seal and first trumpet. Their reasoning is hard to argue with: Joel tells us the Day cannot start until AFTER the signs in the sun and moon.

My answer to that is that TIME PASSES in these verses of the 6th seal. There is time for the sun to appear dark, and the moon to appear red, and then time for them to declare the DAY has come. I have long thought that the great earthquake will be the start of God's wrath. But does the earthquake come before the cosmic signs? It seems that it does. Perhaps you have an answer here.

iamlamad said:

My answer to that is that TIME PASSES in these verses of the 6th seal. There is time for the sun to appear dark, and the moon to appear red, and then time for them to declare the DAY has come. I have long thought that the great earthquake will be the start of God's wrath. But does the earthquake come before the cosmic signs? It seems that it does. Perhaps you have an answer here.

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Wow! Now if only you could figure what it is the Lord will use to fulfil all the graphic prophesies about His terrible Day of fiery wrath, real understanding would dawn for you.
Isaiah 30:26a tells us; the sun will suddenly flash seven times brighter than normal. This can only be explained by a Coronal Mass Ejection, something that is known to happen at times. Look at the spaceweather.com site

A big CME will do all that is prophesied for that one literal day.
Before it strikes the earth; the moon will reflect this flash, by shining as bright as the sun. [must be on or near; the new moon phase]
In eight minutes, the entire spectrum of light to microwaves will affect all that half of the earth facing the sun. Which will be centered on the Middle East, as Zephaniah 2:4 informs us.
The Electro-Magnetic waves will disable all communications, vehicles, etc and will cause armed nuke missiles to explode on the launch pad. Psalms 7:12-16
Microwaves will cause tectonic plate shift. Deuteronomy 32:22

The Sixth Seal will be the event that will set the scene for a One World Govt and will allow all of the holy Land to be resettled by the faithful people of God. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26

I pray that you and all who have believed false theories, will stand firm in your faith thru this ordeal and be proven faithful to receive the great Promises of God to His people. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

iamlamad said:

My friend, that is what "the rest of" means. Some here, but the rest there. It is not a difficult concept.

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No, you misunderstand. Let me give you an analogy.

Revelation 20
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

This is like saying "the small potatoes were fried at 2pm. The rest of the potatoes were not fried until 5pm."

Now if I fry the small potatoes at 2pm, and then I fry both the small and the large potatoes at 5pm, is the first statement not still true?

The answer is of course yes. If I fry the small potatoes at both 2pm and at 5pm then it's still true to say "the rest of the potatoes were not fried until 5pm". So the small potatoes were fried twice; the big potatoes only once.

(the small potatoes turned out better by the way)

iamlamad said:

So define that "death" that we were...

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I'm not sure I understand your request. Do you want me to define "spiritual death"? Do you not believe there is such a thing as spiritual death? Or do agree that it's real, but you legitimately don't understand it?

I guess what I'm saying is, if you first answer my question, I can better answer yours.

iamlamad said:

Oxford is describing PHYSICAL death, not spiritual death.

Wikipedia: In Christian theology, spiritual death is separation from God caused by sin.

Catholic dictionary: SPIRITUAL DEATH: Definition: The state of the soul in mortal sin, based on the analogy with bodily death.

Compellingtruth.org: Spiritual death is our natural state prior to accepting Christ as our savior

Evangelicaloutreach.org: the absence of having spiritual life, which is only available in the Lord Jesus Christ

Blueletterbible.org: Spiritual death is when a person is alive physically, but dead spiritually. All of us are born spiritually dead, separated from God. The Lord said to Adam.

Spiritual death is a reality. No dictionary that I have found gives the definition of a spiritual resurrection.
Once again, the Greek word behind "resurrection" gives the idea of someone horizontal and having ceased to function, then made erect, vertical, standing, and functioning. That does not fit a human spirit that is disconnected from God and then a new spirit is created with God inside.

If this was a reality, there should be many examples in scripture. I find none.

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After all these years, though your debating skills have improved, along with your reading skills, you're still as stubborn as ever.

Timtofly said:

Does it matter how carnal flesh defines death? The Scriptures constantly portray it as falling asleep. Technically we fall asleep in one body and immediately wake up in an incorruptible body in Paradise. Some take it too literally and claim the soul is asleep, until some future resurrection. They are literally saying the soul is dead until a resurrection. Then some have to claim, no, it is spiritual. No! it is neither! Those in Christ are physically in Paradise. They have an incorruptible body. There is nothing spiritual, meaning a ghost or spirit condition in Paradise.

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I'm afraid your definition of both "soul" and "death" are not at all scriptural.

Timtofly said:

How can you raise those alive? Only dead people can be raised from the dead. Do you assume those living can also be raised even though they are not dead?

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Yes. Paul literally said it.

Let me just repeat here: Paul said that "we have passed from death to life", "we were crucified with Christ", "we were dead and buried with Christ" and "God raised us up with Christ".

So when Paul said "God raised us up", you know he wasn't speaking of the physical body, so why do you find it so hard to accept? I get that it's hard to understand, but a lack of understanding should not prevent you from accepting it.

Timtofly said:

We in this chat room were not even born then. Are you trying to say we had a soul then?

The act of Salvation is placing trust in God. We are blind to what God has to offer us. Dead in sin is the human condition all are born into. No one is born, Saved. That is a choice to be made when the Holy Spirit points us to God. We then choose God in faith, or keep rejecting God and the Holy Spirit our whole life, remaining dead. That was the same condition all in the OT had. The same condition all since the Cross have had.

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So now you're admitting to spiritual death, yet in your previous post you seemed incredulous that one could be spiritually raised from it. So now I'm not sure what you believe. Do you believe that one can be spiritually dead and spiritually raised from that death, or not?

Freedm said:

After all these years, though your debating skills have improved, along with your reading skills, you're still as stubborn as ever.

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Thanks! But why should I jump from truth to error?

By the way, I was only quoting the "experts."

Freedm said:

No, you misunderstand. Let me give you an analogy.

Revelation 20
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

This is like saying "the small potatoes were fried at 2pm. The rest of the potatoes were not fried until 5pm."

Now if I fry the small potatoes at 2pm, and then I fry both the small and the large potatoes at 5pm, is the first statement not still true?

The answer is of course yes. If I fry the small potatoes at both 2pm and at 5pm then it's still true to say "the rest of the potatoes were not fried until 5pm". So the small potatoes were fried twice; the big potatoes only once.

(the small potatoes turned out better by the way)

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Ha ha! You are TOO funny! No one gets a resurrection body TWICE! (Lazarus was resurrected once back into his physical body, and will be resurrected again into a resurrection body.)

iamlamad said:

Thanks! But why should I jump from truth to error?

By the way, I was only quoting the "experts."

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You should not jump from truth to error, but you should be open to both error and the truth because if you fight to keep the errors out, how can you be sure they're errors?

Freedm said:

I'm not sure I understand your request. Do you want me to define "spiritual death"? Do you not believe there is such a thing as spiritual death? Or do agree that it's real, but you legitimately don't understand it?

I guess what I'm saying is, if you first answer my question, I can better answer yours.

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So sorry, but I have lost your question and cannot find it. I was certainly not asking you to define spiritual death. Of course i believe there is spiritual death: was born that way.

Freedm said:

You should not jump from truth to error, but you should be open to both error and the truth because if you fight to keep the errors out, how can you be sure they're errors?

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I can read and understand what I read, and I can hear the voice of God.

iamlamad said:

So sorry, but I have lost your question and cannot find it. I was certainly not asking you to define spiritual death. Of course i believe there is spiritual death: was born that way.

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I think we agree that there is such a thing as spiritual death, and that through Jesus we have been spiritually brought to life. It's only applying the word "resurrection" to this event that you're refusing to accept for some reason.

Why don't you tell me, other than the words of Revelation 20, what do you consider the strongest evidence that the righteous are physically resurrected a thousand years prior to the wicked. The reason I say other than the words of Revelation 20, is because clearly there are two very different ways to understand that passage and we've established that, so I want to hear what else you've got.

I want to compare your evidence outside of Revelation 20, to my evidence outside of Revelation 20 and hopefully we can then see who's on the better team.

iamlamad said:

Where do you get these crazy ideas? Did you just forget that "the dead in Christ shall rise first?" Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up WITH THEM (the dead who were just caught up) and TOGETHER.....here it is in three different translations.

1 Thes. 4 KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Amp
16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!

Exb
16 The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud ·command [or shout], ·with [or accompanied by; or preceded by] the voice of the archangel [C a leading or ruling angel; Dan. 10:13; Jude 9], and with the trumpet call of God. And ·those who have died believing [L the dead] in Christ will rise first [1 Cor. 15:51–57].
17 After that, we who are ·still alive [or alive and are left] will be ·gathered [caught; taken] up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And [L so; in this way] we will be with the Lord forever.

In other words, He, Jesus, is coming for HIS BRIDE: both those who have died previously and those who are alive at the time He comes.

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Who does Jesus Christ bring with Him then, if no one is resurrected?

Freedm said:

I'm afraid your definition of both "soul" and "death" are not at all scriptural.

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So Paul's 1 epistle of Corinthians is Scripture, but 2 Corinthians is not Scripture?

Freedm said:

Yes. Paul literally said it.

Let me just repeat here: Paul said that "we have passed from death to life", "we were crucified with Christ", "we were dead and buried with Christ" and "God raised us up with Christ".

So when Paul said "God raised us up", you know he wasn't speaking of the physical body, so why do you find it so hard to accept? I get that it's hard to understand, but a lack of understanding should not prevent you from accepting it.

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Because Jesus Christ was bodily raised from the dead. Is it hard to understand that Jesus' resurrection was a physical body?

Freedm said:

So now you're admitting to spiritual death, yet in your previous post you seemed incredulous that one could be spiritually raised from it. So now I'm not sure what you believe. Do you believe that one can be spiritually dead and spiritually raised from that death, or not?

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Adam died spiritually. His spirit, the God image part was taking away and is with God. In Christ we are given the Holy Spirit as a replacement. That is the spiritual part of Adam's punishment.

The other part was Adam died physically and lost his incorruptible body, and was given a corruptible body.

We will not be whole ever in this corruptible body. Only at death will the incorruptible body be restored. At the Second Coming/rapture, the spirit will be joined with us as a glorified body. Then we will be fully restored to Adam's original state. In the 5th seal those in Paradise get their robe of white. They are glorified. The 6th seal is immediately after, and those alive will be glorified and given an incorruptible body at the same time.

The sentence structure is: "we shall not all die", and the emphasis is on death. Death is the change, not the time of the rapture. Otherwise we would point out those alive will die in mid air. But death is not the emphasis, because Paul says sleep. We fall asleep in one body, the change, we wake up in the new body. It is not that we sleep until the rapture either. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord and the new body. This body never goes to Paradise. Not even at the rapture. It is changed in mid air. The living body is changed. The dead body was already changed, that is what the sleep did. If the new body has been present with the a Lord since death, what is resurrected? Nothing because the change already took place.

People seem to think God needs to put the old body back together, just to instantly change it. There is no reason to do that, as Jesus is bringing all those New Bodies with Him. Can you image the new body watching the old body come out of the grave? Are they going to collide in midair? Seems a weird way to make the change.

That is the whole point. The change already happened in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ 1990 years ago. Since that time a permanent building not made of or by flesh, but God, awaits us the moment we shed this earthly tent. The corruptible exchanged with the incorruptible.

That is what happened when Christ led all the OT believers out of Abraham's bosom. Why in Paradise would the church be in shambles split between heaven and sheol. Death and sleeping? Paul says all will be changed. Nothing can prevent that change, not even time. It is Paul who describes the soul as having 2 "houses". It is Paul who claims it is sleep, not physical death. The spirit is not dead. Never was dead, not until it is removed from the Lamb's book of life. It may be darkened with sin. But in Christ, it is quickened. A reprobate soul is the source of demons, when the spirit becomes dead, seeking another open mind/soul to posess. The GWT is when the spirit and soul face the second death, after the physical body's first death.

iamlamad said:

Ha ha! You are TOO funny! No one gets a resurrection body TWICE! (Lazarus was resurrected once back into his physical body, and will be resurrected again into a resurrection body.)

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You have no Scriptural proof. You realize you are just speculating, no?

Freedm said:

I think we agree that there is such a thing as spiritual death, and that through Jesus we have been spiritually brought to life. It's only applying the word "resurrection" to this event that you're refusing to accept for some reason.

Why don't you tell me, other than the words of Revelation 20, what do you consider the strongest evidence that the righteous are physically resurrected a thousand years prior to the wicked. The reason I say other than the words of Revelation 20, is because clearly there are two very different ways to understand that passage and we've established that, so I want to hear what else you've got.

I want to compare your evidence outside of Revelation 20, to my evidence outside of Revelation 20 and hopefully we can then see who's on the better team.

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Calling them righteous is your first mistake. They are chosen in sin, not even part of the church. They physically die, and they are physically resurrected. They stand before thrones and are judged. They get an incorruptible body. The judgment does not make them righteous. It makes them alive. They are only given life, after the resurrection and judgment.