The Rapture theory is true?

[iamlamad]

It's about the only thing we agree on in that passage, but I agree that it's cause for celebration when we do agree on something.

I disagree 100% with almost everything you said there. In this case, our disagreement is partly caused by our respective opinions of the English translators of the various English translations of the Bible. I believe that they were all accurate and knew what they were doing when translating this passage and you think they all translated it incorrectly.

We can't possibly agree on what the passage is saying as long as that is the case since we're not even interpreting the same text. I'm interpreting it based on what our English translations say and you're interpreting it based on what the iamlamad translation says despite you not being a Greek expert while the translators all are/were. So, it's pointless to continue this particular discussion of that passage as long as that is the case.

Where have you been? It is not MY translation:

English Translations of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Prior to the
King James Version

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.


Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion.” (Tyndale Translation, 1534)

Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion. (Coverdale Bible, 1535)

Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion. (Cranmer Great Bible, 1539)

Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon] (Matthew’s Bible 1549)

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition. (Beza Bible, 1565)

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition. (Geneva Bible, 1575)

You have not answered my question: in 3b, is the man of sin revealed, or is he not revealed? It is a simple question. Just read it and tell me what you read in your words.

 

[iamlamad]

The Last Day; of God's Plan for mankind, must be the final day before the Eternal state.
Which happens after the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then; the Book of Life will be opened, Revelation 20:11-15, and immortality conferred to those whose names are Written in that Book.

Any beliefs about a 'transformation', or getting 'glorified bodies' before that final Judgment, are false and will never happen.

I hope you take this up with Paul when you arrive where he is. I think he will disagree with you and change your thinking. Why?

Because Paul teaches us that the rapture of the church, when the church gets resurrection bodies, is before God's wrath is poured out. That will be around 1007 years before the time you are thinking of.

 

[iamlamad]

Let me just repeat here: Paul said that "we have passed from death to life", "we were crucified with Christ", "we were dead and buried with Christ" and "God raised us up with Christ".

Forgive me if I misunderstand but it really sounds like you're denying that we were dead before Christ's resurrection. Are you denying that we were dead?

So define that "death" that we were...

 

[iamlamad]

And yet many people make an assumption out of that sentence which is not justified. The assumption is that only the rest of the dead were raised when the 1000 years were over. It doesn't actually say that, but that is your assumption, is it not?

My friend, that is what "the rest of" means. Some here, but the rest there. It is not a difficult concept.

Perhaps you mean people that might die during the 1000 years?

 

[iamlamad]

But it's the same for the definition of death. Oxford dictionaries defines death as the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue, and so this requires physical cells or tissue, essentially ruling out the possibility of a spiritual death. Yet despite the definition, you accept the possibility of a spiritual death. How then can you use the definition of resurrection as a reason to deny the possibility of a spiritual resurrection? You're simply being inconsistent.

Oxford is describing PHYSICAL death, not spiritual death.

Wikipedia: In Christian theology, spiritual death is separation from God caused by sin.

Catholic dictionary: SPIRITUAL DEATH: Definition: The state of the soul in mortal sin, based on the analogy with bodily death.

Compellingtruth.org: Spiritual death is our natural state prior to accepting Christ as our savior

Evangelicaloutreach.org: the absence of having spiritual life, which is only available in the Lord Jesus Christ

Blueletterbible.org: Spiritual death is when a person is alive physically, but dead spiritually. All of us are born spiritually dead, separated from God. The Lord said to Adam.

Spiritual death is a reality. No dictionary that I have found gives the definition of a spiritual resurrection.
Once again, the Greek word behind "resurrection" gives the idea of someone horizontal and having ceased to function, then made erect, vertical, standing, and functioning. That does not fit a human spirit that is disconnected from God and then a new spirit is created with God inside.

If this was a reality, there should be many examples in scripture. I find none.

 

[iamlamad]

...
Consequently the Lord says nothing in Verse 20 (Luk_21:20) of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, but gives the fact of the siege of Jerusalem, and its then approaching desolation — not the end of the age, as in Matthew. These were the days of vengeance on the Jews, who had crowned their rebellion by rejecting the Lord.
.

In context, Jesus is answering the question about the end of the age. Therefore, since context must be considered, I think this part of Luk 21 is really for our future, just as verse 15 in Matthew 24 is for the future. But God being all wise spoke this as a warning for the believers in 70 AD to escape.

In other words, I expect this same thing to happen in the future. We get a picture of it in Zech. 14.
I disagree with Darby.

Time will tell who has truth.

 

[iamlamad]

The Last Day; of God's Plan for mankind, must be the final day before the Eternal state.
Which happens after the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then; the Book of Life will be opened, Revelation 20:11-15, and immortality conferred to those whose names are Written in that Book.

Any beliefs about a 'transformation', or getting 'glorified bodies' before that final Judgment, are false and will never happen.

I disagree. There will be several "last days."
1. The church age will have a last day: the day of the rapture.
2. The Jewish age will have a last day: the last day of the last year of the 70th week - marked by the 7th vial.
3. The 1000 years will have a last day.
4. Finally, heaven and earth will be destroyed, so no more solar days.

 

[iamlamad]

I said respected Bible scholar, but oh well. I didn't specify that I personally had to respect them, so I'll let it go.

Dr. Thomas Ice is very respected among pretribbers!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Where have you been?

Right here on earth. I haven't departed it yet.

It is not MY translation:

English Translations of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Prior to the
King James Version

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.


Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion.” (Tyndale Translation, 1534)

Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion. (Coverdale Bible, 1535)

Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion. (Cranmer Great Bible, 1539)

Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon] (Matthew’s Bible 1549)

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition. (Beza Bible, 1565)

Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition. (Geneva Bible, 1575)

You have not answered my question: in 3b, is the man of sin revealed, or is he not revealed? It is a simple question. Just read it and tell me what you read in your words.

Why do you think you proved anything here? None of those translations mention a departing from the earth. I believe they are referring to a departing from the faith just like all the rest of the translations indicate. So, there are no translations that translate it as a departure from the earth but many translations translate it as a rebellion or a falling away/departure from the faith.

Also, I told you that I didn't understand your question the first time you asked it and I asked for clarification. Did you somehow miss that? You're acting like I refused to answer the question.

I'm still not completely sure of what you're asking. Are you asking whether the man of sin has been revealed yet or not as of today? If so, please go back and read my explanation of my understanding of the man of sin if you haven't already.

As I indicated before, I don't believe it's referring to an individual Antichrist, so if you're asking me if I know of the identity of an individual Antichrist (if that's been revealed) then that isn't the right question to ask me.

Remember, what Paul is talking about relates to a time just before "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him". That is a reference to the rapture, which you somehow deny. A falling away from the faith and the man of sin is revealed before that day which results in an increase in wickedness and those fake Christians will be exposed/revealed for being hypocrites or wolves in sheep's clothing when Christ returns to take vengeance on His enemies.

Thess 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Verse 8 above matches up with 2 Thess 1:7-10 which talks about Christ coming from heaven to take vengeance on His enemies. So, it's possible that Paul was talking about the man of sin (sinful man in general) being revealed when Christ comes rather than before that. In that case they would be revealed/exposed by the fact that they are not caught up to meet Him in the air.

Regardless, if you understand Paul to be talking about the rapture in 2 Thess 2:1 as I do, then it's clear that in verse 3 Paul indicated that the man of sin is not revealed after the rapture, but instead before the rapture (or when the rapture takes place).

You had a question for me and I answered it. I know you'll disagree, but at least I answered it.

Now, I have a question for you.

2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,.....

What is your explanation for not seeing the above as referring to the rapture? How is it not the same as what is described in 1 Thess 4:13-17?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So define that "death" that we were...

Dead in sins, man. Like scripture talks about several times. How many times do we have to tell you this? We're talking about being dead in sins like Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:1-6. Would you do me a big favor and give us your interpretation of Ephesians 2:1-6?

I don't have the iamlamad translation handy, so I'll just quote it from the NIV for reference:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

What does being dead in transgressions and sins mean to you? And what does it mean to be raised up from being dead in sins to alive with Christ?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I disagree. There will be several "last days."
1. The church age will have a last day: the day of the rapture.
2. The Jewish age will have a last day: the last day of the last year of the 70th week - marked by the 7th vial.
3. The 1000 years will have a last day.
4. Finally, heaven and earth will be destroyed, so no more solar days.

Jesus referred to "the last day" several times. Which last day was He referring to? Different ones or the same one each time? If He referred to different last days, then why did He not specify which "last day" He was referring to in each instance that He referred to "the last day"?

Which of your 4 last days was Jesus referring to here:

John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Which of your 4 last days was Jesus referring to here:

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

 

[iamlamad]

Right here on earth. I haven't departed it yet.

Why do you think you proved anything here? None of those translations mention a departing from the earth. I believe they are referring to a departing from the faith just like all the rest of the translations indicate. So, there are no translations that translate it as a departure from the earth but many translations translate it as a rebellion or a falling away/departure from the faith.

Also, I told you that I didn't understand your question the first time you asked it and I asked for clarification. Did you somehow miss that? You're acting like I refused to answer the question.

I'm still not completely sure of what you're asking. Are you asking whether the man of sin has been revealed yet or not as of today? If so, please go back and read my explanation of my understanding of the man of sin if you haven't already.

As I indicated before, I don't believe it's referring to an individual Antichrist, so if you're asking me if I know of the identity of an individual Antichrist (if that's been revealed) then that isn't the right question to ask me.

Remember, what Paul is talking about relates to a time just before "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him". That is a reference to the rapture, which you somehow deny. A falling away from the faith and the man of sin is revealed before that day which results in an increase in wickedness and those fake Christians will be exposed/revealed for being hypocrites or wolves in sheep's clothing when Christ returns to take vengeance on His enemies.

Thess 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Verse 8 above matches up with 2 Thess 1:7-10 which talks about Christ coming from heaven to take vengeance on His enemies. So, it's possible that Paul was talking about the man of sin (sinful man in general) being revealed when Christ comes rather than before that. In that case they would be revealed/exposed by the fact that they are not caught up to meet Him in the air.

Regardless, if you understand Paul to be talking about the rapture in 2 Thess 2:1 as I do, then it's clear that in verse 3 Paul indicated that the man of sin is not revealed after the rapture, but instead before the rapture (or when the rapture takes place).

You had a question for me and I answered it. I know you'll disagree, but at least I answered it.

Now, I have a question for you.

2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,.....

What is your explanation for not seeing the above as referring to the rapture? How is it not the same as what is described in 1 Thess 4:13-17?

Those references prove others have translated that verse differently that the KJV. A departing can be a departing from different things or places. Paul chose not to tell us...at least not in so many words.

I'm still not completely sure of what you're asking. Are you asking whether the man of sin has been revealed yet or not as of today? If so, please go back and read my explanation of my understanding of the man of sin if you haven't already.
It was a very straight forward question. Let's look together.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

I ask, is he revealed in this verse? As you can see, Paul wrote "IS revealed." (Not in reality but in Paul's argument.) This is proven (that he is revealed) by what Paul wrote next:

4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s temple, proclaiming that he himself is God.

Your answer could have been, "yes, Paul wrote in verse 3b that the man of sin "is revealed."

You and I both know that He cannot be revealed until the one restraining him - PREVENTING him from being revealed before his time (God knows what time this will be) is "taken out of the way."

I submit to you that in Paul's argument, that "taking out of the way" of the restraining power is written in verse 3a, but written in a cloaked way...so Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining" so readers would go back and see WHERE Paul revealed who or what this restraining power is.

Take your pick: you have 19 words or any combination of words counting backwards from the word first. Somewhere in those words Paul has hidden or concealed the restraining force taken out of the way.

I believe they are referring to a departing from the faith just like all the rest of the translations indicate.
But they are adding to scripture for Paul gives NO INDICATION as to what is being departed FROM. That is, unless you understand the rapture is the restraining force "taken out of the way." Then we know what the departing is all about. You are stuck with a serious problem: HOW did Paul get the man of sin revealed in verse 3b? Something had to be "taken out of the way" in the first half of that verse.

there are no translations that translate it as a departure from the earth There is simply no information in that word "apostasia" that tells us what the departing is from. So it does not FORBID a departure from the earth. Again I must remind you, what is Paul's THEME? It is the departure!

if you're asking me if I know of the identity of an individual Antichrist I only ask if the man of sin was revealed in 3b. Sorry, I did not think it could be taken any other way. I thought it was a simple question. Paul is making an argument to the Thessalonians about their mistaken idea the "the DAY" and already come and they were in it. It was only an argument or teaching moment: not reality. In the real world, when someone sees the very significant departing (the rapture will be HUGE - no one will miss it) and then sees this man enter the most holy place in the Jewish temple and declare he (a man) is God, then all will know the DAY has started and they are IN IT. That is this passage in a nutshell. He is telling them they are NOT in the Day of the Lord. Why did Paul write it as he did? We will have to ask Him and Our Lord about that. It is what it is and that is what we have to work with.

Remember, what Paul is talking about relates to a time just before "the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him". And here is where we differ, You are relating or comparing "the Day of the Lord" with the rapture, perhaps thinking that the rapture will be the first event in the Day of the Lord. Many people think this and write something silly like "the rapture must come first before the rapture."

If we go back and read EVERY verse in the OT about the Day of the Lord, we see that it is a DARK DAY of destruction and wrath. Sorry, but the rapture does not fit.

If we study Paul in 1 Thes. 5, we discover Jesus coming will trigger the RAPTURE and the rapture will trigger THE DAY. So the rapture is over before the Day starts. It is associated with "the day" but is not a part of "the Day." In fact, here Paul tells us the departing or rapture must come first, before the revealing, because the rapture is the restrainer being "taken out of the way."

That is a reference to the rapture, which you somehow deny. Yes, I deny that the day of the Lord is a reference to the rapture. The Day of the Lord is a dark day of wrath, and we will be OUT OF HERE before wrath. We have Paul's guarantee. (The apostasia is a reference to the rapture! )

I think we will always disagree on this passage until we arrive.

 

[Timtofly]

I backed up my statements with scripture and you respond with nothing but opinion with no scriptural support. And you don't bother taking the time to show how you interpret the passages I referenced differently. So, please do me a favor.

Can you please tell me how you interpret this passage:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, following that distress,“‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Can you please tell me how you interpret this verse:

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Also, please tell me why "those who have fallen asleep in Him" that are with Jesus when He comes can't be the same as the elect that are gathered from heaven.

Those who come with Jesus are the whole body of the church, OT and NT who have taken on the incorruptible body. There is no bodily resurrection. They are in Paradise and gathered by the angels, which is figurative of a personal role call.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus referred to "the last day" several times. Which last day was He referring to? Different ones or the same one each time? If He referred to different last days, then why did He not specify which "last day" He was referring to in each instance that He referred to "the last day"?

Which of your 4 last days was Jesus referring to here:

John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Which of your 4 last days was Jesus referring to here:

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

I suspect "last day" was just a manner of speech and was not meant to pinpoint a certain day. On the other hand, I believe the Jews will be resurrected "on the last day" of the Jewish age.

We must remember, the Gentile church of today was not in existence and God would wait to see if Israel accepted Jesus as Messiah before sending Paul to the Gentiles. In other words, Jesus was talking to Jews about the end of THEIR age. That would be the entire 70th week.

 

[iamlamad]

Dead in sins, man. Like scripture talks about several times. How many times do we have to tell you this? We're talking about being dead in sins like Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:1-6. Would you do me a big favor and give us your interpretation of Ephesians 2:1-6?

I don't have the iamlamad translation handy, so I'll just quote it from the NIV for reference:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

What does being dead in transgressions and sins mean to you? And what does it mean to be raised up from being dead in sins to alive with Christ?

Is dead in sins the same as a dead body that is horizontal and ceased to function? NO! Dead in sins only means NOT born again and with a human spirit disconnected from God. Just because both a dead body can be "dead" and a human spirit can be "dead" in sins, does not mean "dead" means the same thing in both instances. a "Dead in sins" human spirit still gives LIFE to the human body - sometimes a hundred years or more of life. But sadly, a "dead in sins" spirit can be a sin generator: a fallen human nature. It is not in any way a "dead" (as in ceasing to function) nature: a fallen human nature LOVES to sin; therefore very much still functioning and providing life to a body.

Compare that to a dead body: nothing it it is functioning. It is turning slowly to dust.

 

[iamlamad]

Now, I have a question for you.

2 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,.....

What is your explanation for not seeing the above as referring to the rapture? How is it not the same as what is described in 1 Thess 4:13-17?

OF COURSE it is the rapture. Paul is setting the THEME of this passage. And I see this theme answered as the rapture: the restraining force being "taken out of the way" so the man of sin can be revealed (declaring he is God) at the proper time.

Many people, in error, see "the Day of the Lord" as a synonym for the rapture. They are mistaken.
The day of the Lord is a DARK day of destruction.
"Apostasisa" would be a better synonym for rapture. Strong's tells us the "apo" that starts the word can mean a part of a whole group removed and taken to a different location. That is exactly what will happen at the rapture.

 

[iamlamad]

Those who come with Jesus are the whole body of the church, OT and NT who have taken on the incorruptible body. There is no bodily resurrection. They are in Paradise and gathered by the angels, which is figurative of a personal role call.

This is simply not truth. It is only those who died "IN CHRIST" and that leaves out OT saints.

 

[Timtofly]

But it's the same for the definition of death. Oxford dictionaries defines death as the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue, and so this requires physical cells or tissue, essentially ruling out the possibility of a spiritual death. Yet despite the definition, you accept the possibility of a spiritual death. How then can you use the definition of resurrection as a reason to deny the possibility of a spiritual resurrection? You're simply being inconsistent.

Does it matter how carnal flesh defines death? The Scriptures constantly portray it as falling asleep. Technically we fall asleep in one body and immediately wake up in an incorruptible body in Paradise. Some take it too literally and claim the soul is asleep, until some future resurrection. They are literally saying the soul is dead until a resurrection. Then some have to claim, no, it is spiritual. No! it is neither! Those in Christ are physically in Paradise. They have an incorruptible body. There is nothing spiritual, meaning a ghost or spirit condition in Paradise. It is a better body than this carnal tent. What heaven is is hidden in a veil. It is not another dimension or realm. If a person is blind, the world around them is not in another dimension or spiritual realm. They just can not use the sense of sight to experience the world. Sinful human flesh blinds us to the physical reality of heaven, angels, and Paradise. In physical death we are no longer blinded by sin and carnal flesh.

Salvation is just a credit of what is to come. Every believer holds the keys to loose and bind God's will on earth. Most never take advantage of this "birthright" in Christ. Most do not even let the Holy Spirit give them the power to face their daily battles. Satan through the desires of the flesh, has them blinded to the truth. "Eve saw that the tree was good for both Physical food and Physical wisdom", because she listened to Satan, and trusted (had faith) in Satan's Physical promises. Now we are blind to God’s Physical part of creation. Satan caused such to be spiritualized, out of reach of sinful flesh. God allowed Satan to change Adam's descendants in the same manner as Job himself was blindsided by Satan. Satan was not solo in the act. Adam and Eve also chose freely, Satan’s misleading advice.

 

[Timtofly]

And yet many people make an assumption out of that sentence which is not justified. The assumption is that only the rest of the dead were raised when the 1000 years were over. It doesn't actually say that, but that is your assumption, is it not?

How can you raise those alive? Only dead people can be raised from the dead. Do you assume those living can also be raised even though they are not dead?

 

[Timtofly]

Let me just repeat here: Paul said that "we have passed from death to life", "we were crucified with Christ", "we were dead and buried with Christ" and "God raised us up with Christ".

Forgive me if I misunderstand but it really sounds like you're denying that we were dead before Christ's resurrection. Are you denying that we were dead?

We in this chat room were not even born then. Are you trying to say we had a soul then?

The act of Salvation is placing trust in God. We are blind to what God has to offer us. Dead in sin is the human condition all are born into. No one is born, Saved. That is a choice to be made when the Holy Spirit points us to God. We then choose God in faith, or keep rejecting God and the Holy Spirit our whole life, remaining dead. That was the same condition all in the OT had. The same condition all since the Cross have had.