The Rapture NEW

[LiberalFundamentalist]

Doesn't it bother anyone that the Rapture is a new doctrine only dating back to the 19th century?

This raises red flags to me, because of this and many other reasons I currently have suspended my eschatalogical beliefs.

 

[holdon]

Doesn't it bother anyone that the Rapture is a new doctrine only dating back to the 19th century?

This raises red flags to me, because of this and many other reasons I currently have suspended my eschatalogical beliefs.

Why? It is right there in everybody's bible: 1 Thess 4:17. So, why do you think the rapture idea dates back to the 19th century only?

 

[TheScottsMen]

Why? It is right there in everybody's bible: 1 Thess 4:17.

Amen

Also, just because some throughout history have not preached it as it is in the scriptures, should we deny its there? Shall we conclude that justification by faith is a heresy? It was scripture all those years, but it wasn' t until Martin Luther that the truth on such matter was broght back into light.

 

[Dave Taylor]

I think he is talking about 'the pretrib rapture theory'....not the 2nd Advent gathering and resurrection that is described in I Thessalonians 4.

The resurrection that occurs, and the gathering of believers to Christ that is to occur at the 2nd Advent is not a new doctrine....it has been known and taught in each of the 21 centuries since the time of Christ; and even beyond that in the Old Testament writings.

Only the Pretrib rapture, is of new 19th century origination and popularity.

 

[Markea]

Without making a distinction between Israel (particularly the Jewish remnant) and the church of God.. imo, it's very difficult to see a rapture of the church.. although consider these verses and share your thoughts on them if you (anyone) would..

We're taught in the scriptures that the church is the body of Christ, even His bride.. and that there will be a marriage of the Lamb, with His wife who has made herself ready. We're shown this marriage in Revelation 19 and it takes place in heaven..and we even see these same ones arrayed in fine linen, clean and white.. following the Lord when He comes ! So they are there in heaven before He comes in glory to defeat the beast and the false prophet according to the same chapter (Rev 19).. This relates to 2 Thess 2 where we're shown His coming in brightness to destroy the man of sin.. etc etc..

But, back to the point... look at Luke chapter 12 for a moment...

Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; and ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when He will return from the wedding; that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open unto Him immediately.

Notice who He is speaking to here... it's not the church.. but to Jews.. the Lord is telling these to be ready when HE returns from the wedding...from the wedding which takes place in heaven and which deals with the church of God, the Lamb's wife..

So, it's so important in my estimation to make the distinction where the bible makes the distinction..

Anyway, there's a couple cents worth

 

[Psalms34]

Doesn't it bother anyone that the Rapture is a new doctrine only dating back to the 19th century?

This raises red flags to me, because of this and many other reasons I currently have suspended my eschatalogical beliefs.

Daniel 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Either the Church is growing and moving forward or it is stagnate in traditions and learning nothing. There is a gap that was sealed there but will be known in the last days before the day of the Lord due to knowledge being increased.

 

[Loukuss]

Doesn't it bother anyone that the Rapture is a new doctrine only dating back to the 19th century?

This raises red flags to me, because of this and many other reasons I currently have suspended my eschatalogical beliefs.

It bothers me now, that I have walked away from the the pretrib view. It bothers me that people, including myself, can be taken in by such an unbiblical view of the endtimes.

I hope while your beliefs in the subject are suspended, you are still trying to find the truth. Just because pretrib proved to be a fruitless theory invented by man, doesnt mean they all are. The one theory that is supported by the bible is post tribulation.

 

[Dispy]

The OT teaches the 70th week of Daniel 9, which is the sever year Tribulation. It can be found also in the Gospels, and spoken of by Jesus.

The rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ cannot be found in the OT or the gospels. It cannot be found until after the conversion of Saul/Paul. The pre-Tribulation rapture is not found in or the subject of prophesy.

The Church, the Body of Christ consist of Jew and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law. There was no such Church, or organization that fit that discription in existance prior to Saul/Paul. It is a "new creation" that was formed by God AFTER the setting aside of the nation of Israel. Isreal, as a nation, was "set aside" for rejecting their King and His Kingdom. (read Ephesians 2:12-18.)

The Chruch, the purpose of the Cross, the rapture, and the gospel of "the gospel of the grace of God" are all part of "the mystery which was kept secret since the world began." It was not a part of prophesy, and will not be found in the book of the Revelation, which is the fulfillment of OT prophesy.

Paul tells us in 1Cor.15:51-53 that the rapture of the Church was a secret (something that was never before revealed). In 1Thess.4:13-18 he tells us about the rapture of the Church to heaven "...to ever be with the Lord."

The Chruch, the Body of Christ, has no place in the earthly kingdom, is not "the Bride of Christ. The Church, the Body of Christ is more part of the Bridegroom then the Bride. Christ is the HEAD of the Church and we are members of His flesh and of His bones (Eph 5:30).

Hope this is helpful.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[FreeinChrist]

Doesn't it bother anyone that the Rapture is a new doctrine only dating back to the 19th century?

This raises red flags to me, because of this and many other reasons I currently have suspended my eschatalogical beliefs.

Victorinus (about 300 AD) was the first to write a commentary on Revelation and saw the church removed before the trumpets and vials. He saw the church removed at the 6th seal. It doesn't exactly fit pretrib as it is taught now, but is close. However, his work will not shed a great deal of light as it was later altered to be amillennial.


I believe a key problem was that after Augustine, the predominant church became amilennial, and premillennialism was almost lost. Premillennialism had to come back first...and the open look at prophecy as the Bible gives it rather than how a particular church teaches it.

 

[JM]

Doesn't matter what 'history' has to say, what's important is what does the Bible say. If it's in the Bible, then it has to be historical.

sp

 

[Tertius]

...The rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ cannot be found in the OT or the gospels. It cannot be found until after the conversion of Saul/Paul. The pre-Tribulation rapture is not found in or the subject of prophesy....
The Church, the Body of Christ consist of Jew and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law. There was no such Church, or organization that fit that discription in existance prior to Saul/Paul. It is a "new creation" that was formed by God AFTER the setting aside of the nation of Israel. Isreal, as a nation, was "set aside" for rejecting their King and His Kingdom. (read Ephesians 2:12-18.)
The Chruch, the purpose of the Cross, the rapture, and the gospel of "the gospel of the grace of God" are all part of "the mystery which was kept secret since the world began." It was not a part of prophesy, and will not be found in the book of the Revelation, which is the fulfillment of OT prophesy.
Paul tells us in 1Cor.15:51-53 that the rapture of the Church was a secret (something that was never before revealed). In 1Thess.4:13-18 he tells us about the rapture of the Church to heaven "...to ever be with the Lord."
The Chruch, the Body of Christ, has no place in the earthly kingdom, is not "the Bride of Christ. The Church, the Body of Christ is more part of the Bridegroom then the Bride. Christ is the HEAD of the Church and we are members of His flesh and of His bones (Eph 5:30).

I couldn't have said it better myself!!

This 19th century objection is quite a typical objection to the pre-trib rapture. I've seen responses to this objection before, but don't have one handy, where it is simply citation of sources and statements. For example, I have this one in my notes:

Epharaem (373 AD): "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

 

[Dave Taylor]

Ephraem the Syrian, who did live circa 373 AD, but did not make that quote.
That quote is a plagerism by an unknown copyist writing under then name of Ephraem centruies later. He is correctly identified in antiquitical history as 'Pseudo Ephraem' from the Latin for 'False' Ephraem.

Even that however, shouldn't cause a stopping point from studying 'Pseudo Ephraem's writing however....

Instead of quoting one verse out of context, one should study the entire sermon of Pseudo Ephraem so that one verse that is often bandied about by Pretribism circles as an illeged 'ancient' example of Pretribism, would be correctly understood in its proper context.

You can find all of the extant writings of the true 'Ephraem of Syria' circa 373 AD as well as the sermon of Pseudo Ephraem, at Calvin College's online Church Writings Library at: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

You can find examples of Pretribism there, but you will not find any clear, plain, or widely taught or held examples of it in any archeological or historical writings of the church prior to the 19th century.

Perhaps as some have stated, God kept the view of Pretribism hidden for the first 19 centuries of the Christian era, and perhaps that is so....He sure did an excellent job of it!

To read the entire Pseudo Ephraem Sermon which contains the above listed verse, and a well-written examination of the context of it in regards with the rest of the sermon, you can visit:
http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/ephraem.html

 

[Psalms34]

From: http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html


Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date,11 to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627.12 Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the finalform similar to that suggested by Caspari,13 but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter."14 All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.





Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon

The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author.15 Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most probable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek.16 Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.

What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.

(also goes on to say)


Conclusion

Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I think he is talking about 'the pretrib rapture theory'....not the 2nd Advent gathering and resurrection that is described in I Thessalonians 4.

The resurrection that occurs, and the gathering of believers to Christ that is to occur at the 2nd Advent is not a new doctrine....it has been known and taught in each of the 21 centuries since the time of Christ; and even beyond that in the Old Testament writings.

Only the Pretrib rapture, is of new 19th century origination and popularity.

you have read rev4:4 who are the people in white wearing crowns?
who was promised crowns for certain things?

How did they get in heaven before the 7 seals???

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Doesn't it bother anyone that the Rapture is a new doctrine only dating back to the 19th century?

This raises red flags to me, because of this and many other reasons I currently have suspended my eschatalogical beliefs.

Who told you the 'rapture' was a new doctrine? -whoever did is not speaking the truth.
In the Old Testament the 'laqach' of the congregation of the LORD at the same time that He comes with those who are waiting in heaven -with Him- for the resurrection of their bodies from the dust to be in them after they are resurrected from the dust in the regenerated version, is defined quite well, and Paul understood it by revelation and told all about it.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I think he is talking about 'the pretrib rapture theory'....not the 2nd Advent gathering and resurrection that is described in I Thessalonians 4.

The resurrection that occurs, and the gathering of believers to Christ that is to occur at the 2nd Advent is not a new doctrine....it has been known and taught in each of the 21 centuries since the time of Christ; and even beyond that in the Old Testament writings.

Only the Pretrib rapture, is of new 19th century origination and popularity.

Not true.
Paul understood the 'mystery of the Church' by revelation, from the Old Testament, and he also understood the 'mystery of the 'laqach' of the congregation -the Church', by revelation, from the Old Testament and he spoke of them both.

The mystery of the 'laqach' -of the 'mystery' (the Church)- revealed;
1 Corinthians 15:
"51 Behold, I tell you a *mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Paul is speaking to the Church, the revealed mystery itself, that was hidden prior to the vineyard's being taken from the nation that rejected the Son and given to 'a nation that is not a people', until the time of the restoration of Israel as a nation upon this earth to be 'His People'- again.

The last trumpet sounding will be the second 'silver' trumpet call, from the 'door of assembly' in heaven, which will be opened to receive us when the two heavenly 'silver' trumpets call the bodies of the dead in Christ to rise first -for those souls whom the LORD brings 'with Him in the air' to receive their resurrected regenerated bodies, which are the 'rooms' or 'places' (like a scabbard) for our 'habitation' that the LORD went to the cross to prepare for us -so that we could be a 'dwelling place' for the Father (for the glory of His indwelling Presence),-in His house- when He comes again to receive -to 'laqach'- us to Himself -before the day of His wrath poured out upon an unbelieving world and His dealing with national Israel to return to Him.

Then we, His congregation, shall shut our doors about us until the indignation is past -and so shall we ever be with the LORD in regenerated bodies -and the last shall then be first: for Israel, offered the New birth first, as caretakers of the oracles, rejected it; but they'll come into the covenant which was promised to them first, and be His vineyard keepers again for the thousand years of His reign as King and High Priest over this earth.

every thing that Moses was given to make was a type and a shadow of a heavenly truth.

Numbers 10:1-7 teach about the silver trumpets and two trumps calling 'all the congregation' to the door of assembly.

Isaiah 26:19-21, teaches about the 'laqach' of the dead in Christ, first, and the laqach of the changed living 'people of the LORD' immediately at the second trump; and then on, into chapter 28:1-13 teaches what follows on earth immediately after the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the 'laqach' of the living congregation.

Psalm 75:2.. says in the original Hebrew, that when He 'laqach's the congregation, then He will judge -with equity- this earth.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Who told you the 'rapture' was a new doctrine? -whoever did is not speaking the truth.
In the Old Testament the 'laqach' of the congregation of the LORD at the same time that He comes with those who are waiting in heaven -with Him- for the resurrection of their bodies from the dust to be in them after they are resurrected from the dust in the regenerated version, is defined quite well, and Paul understood it by revelation and told all about it.

So, Paul understood the mystery of the 'laqach' of the mystery, the Church; both hidden in the Old Testament: and when the Church is 'laqach' from this earth, then the two witnesses come from the LORD out of heaven and witness to Israel in the streets of Jerusalem, and because of their testimony and the power of God returned to bring lost Israel to Him, there will be many converts to Jesus Christ, who are added to His Church -but the glory is not given to indwell them as He does in those -since Pentecost to the pre-trib 'laqach' of His Church.

When the final Antichrist kills the two eyewitnesses who saw Jesus on the mount of transfiguration and their dead bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem for the three and a half days, and the voice calls them to 'come up here' and they are resurrected in the sight of the whole world and also 'laqach' to heaven; then it seems that there is a mid trib rapture of the gleanings of this earth, who are converted to Jesus during their preaching, after the Gentile Church is 'laqach' and which 'laqach' to the LORD of those harvest of earth's souls 'completes' finishes, the mystery of the Church on this earth.

There is evidence that there is a mid trib of those who come to believe in Jesus through the preaching of the two witnesses, but it is not of the Gentile Church that was 'laqach' before the antichrist is revealed, for these who seem to be caught up with the two eyewitnesses are converted by them and never have the glory indwelling, which is the restrainer of the revealing of the final AC until the 'gathering together to Him' of the Church. The 144,000 seem to be part of that mid trib 'laqach' of those who come to believe in Jesus during the first three and a half years of the preaching.

The 'laqach' of the blood bought Believers -both Jew and Gentile- who are His congregation on earth at this time-before the preaching of the two eyewitnesses- doesn't seem to make much of a difference to Israel to repent and believe; but the preaching of the two eyewitnesses and the subsequent 'laqach' of those who believed in Jesus through their preaching does seem to impact the rest of those in Israel who had heard, but not believed, for there seems to be a turning to the Messiah and believing of those os Israel who are then persecuted by the AC, after the others are caught up, and they flee into the wilderness and are fed and housed for the final three and a half years before the return of the LORD to Israel.

That every remaining seed of Israel is 'laqach' back to the land of Israel, one at a time, after the return of the LORD to this earth, and dealt with severely, with the rebels being purged out of the earth and not entering into the millennial reign, is clear from Ezekiel chapter 20.

 

[Dave Taylor]

How did they get in heaven before the 7 seals???

Unless you believe in the Jehovah's Witness teaching of 'Soul Sleep' then any Christian who has died and are present with the Lord; provide the answer. All of the thousands upon thousands of faithful Christians of years gone by are in Heaven now, today, and will continue to be 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' up to, and through the 7th seal.

Do you believe that when you die, you will go to be with the Lord?

If so, then you'll be one of them!

 

[holdon]

Unless you believe in the Jehovah's Witness teaching of 'Soul Sleep' then any Christian who has died and are present with the Lord; provide the answer. All of the thousands upon thousands of faithful Christians of years gone by are in Heaven now, today, and will continue to be 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' up to, and through the 7th seal.

Do you believe that when you die, you will go to be with the Lord?

If so, then you'll be one of them!

Rev 7 clearly speaks of 3 groups: the elders, those out of Israels tribes, the great multitude out of the nations.
If we were to follow what you say, how can you explain that those groups are all distinguished from eachother?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Unless you believe in the Jehovah's Witness teaching of 'Soul Sleep' then any Christian who has died and are present with the Lord; provide the answer. All of the thousands upon thousands of faithful Christians of years gone by are in Heaven now, today, and will continue to be 'absent from the body and present with the Lord' up to, and through the 7th seal.

Do you believe that when you die, you will go to be with the Lord?

If so, then you'll be one of them!

what happened to hebrews 11:40b that they without us should not be made perfect

with scripture...when do people get their reward of crowns ?...

when they meet face to face and all are perfected 1 thes 5:23,eph 5:27,1john 3:2-3