The "Rapture Hoax" Theory

ac28 said:

the worst of this very bad lot are the Jesuits.

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I agree.

Look at something else a Jesuit priest started.

He even wrote it under the assumed name of "Ben Ezra a converted Jew"

However, the real author was Manuel Lacunza, who was a Jesuit priest.

ac28 said:

I would certainly agree with the idea that getting any information from a Roman Catholic is a very bad idea. Probably 95% of their doctrine is fabricated by the Catholic Church. So the odds are about 20 to 1 that any doctrine given to you by a Roman Catholic has its basis in lies. They've had 1800 years to find questionable or difficult verses in the Bible and insert their damnable doctrines into them. Matthew 16:18-19 is a good example. I love Catholics but I detest their phony church and the worst of this very bad lot are the Jesuits. If the Romish church could get away with it, they would still be torturing and murdering the true Christians.

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But the truth is, that it has been conclusively proven, again and again, that neither Dispensationalism nor the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture originated with the Jesuits. This lie just keeps circulating. And the sad part is that some dishonest people continue to circulate it even after being confronted with undeniable proof that it is not true.

Biblewriter said:

But the truth is, that neither Dispensationalism nor the pre-trib rapture originated with the Jesuits.

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The Irvingites would be a better answer.

The link between the Jesuit Book "Coming of Messiah..." and Edward Irving is obvious.

Darby adopted both doctrines later in the story, even though Dr. Tommy Ice claims he came up with pretrib while recovering from a riding accident during 1827, even though Darby's 1829 paper proves otherwise.

Darby's main contribution was to divide scripture into that for the Jews and that for the Church.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

It appears to me that the Apostle Paul started Mid Acts Dispensationalism and Pre Trib Rapture.

MWood said:

It appears to me that the Apostle Paul started Mid Acts Dispensationalism and Pre Trib Rapture.

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You will not find a pretrib rapture in this text written by Paul.

Look at the actual text most often used by Dispensationalists to prove a pretrib removal of the Church.

Will the text produce a seven year stay in heaven for the Church, before the Second Coming of Christ?

When Paul wrote this letter there were no verses or chapters in the text.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(The phrase "sleep" in Jesus is a metaphor describing the dead in Christ.)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(The word "descend" means to come down.)

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(We also find the "day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15, which are clearly Second Coming passages. Therefore, this verse provides the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4.)

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(It will not overtake us as a thief.)

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(Dispensationalists often claim the tribulation period is “the wrath of God”, even though the Greek words translated as “tribulation” and “wrath” are not the same, and Revelation 12:12 shows at least some of the period to be the wrath of Satan.)

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(The metaphor "sleep" in this verse proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.)


The previous verses show the Apostle Paul gave a description of the event at the end of chapter 4 and the timing of the event in chapter 5.

No seven year stay in heaven can be found within this text. It must be imported from another passage.


Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998


Why would Christians accept any doctrine not found in the text of scripture?

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BABerean2 said:

You will not find a pretrib rapture in this text written by Paul.

Look at the actual text most often used by Dispensationalists to prove a pretrib removal of the Church.

Will the text produce a seven year stay in heaven for the Church, before the Second Coming of Christ?

When Paul wrote this letter there were no verses or chapters in the text.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(The phrase "sleep" in Jesus is a metaphor describing the dead in Christ.)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(The word "descend" means to come down.)

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(We also find the "day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15, which are clearly Second Coming passages. Therefore, this verse provides the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4.)

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(It will not overtake us as a thief.)

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(Dispensationalists often claim the tribulation period is “the wrath of God”, even though the Greek words translated as “tribulation” and “wrath” are not the same, and Revelation 12:12 shows at least some of the period to be the wrath of Satan.)

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(The metaphor "sleep" in this verse proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.)


The previous verses show the Apostle Paul gave a description of the event at the end of chapter 4 and the timing of the event in chapter 5.

No seven year stay in heaven can be found within this text. It must be imported from another passage.


Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998


Why would Christians accept any doctrine not found in the text of scripture?

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This is typical of the disinformation being continually circulated by this poster.

Yes, it is true that pre-tribbers almost always quote this scripture, because it is the most complete description of the rapture found in the Bible.

But no one in his right mind thinks that this scripture says anything about the timing of the rapture. It only describes it, saying absolutely nothing about when it will take place. And every pre-trib writer that I know about is completely aware of this fact.

So, although pre-tribbers typically quote this scripture, they do so only to establish the rapture as a scriptural fact. Then they go on to the other scriptures that show when this event will take place.

I have pointed this out to BABerean2 repeatedly, but he continues to post this completely false claim that we give this scripture as evidence of the timing of the rapture.

To me, the predominance of believers in the pre-trib rapture "theory" is one of Satan's greatest coups. I feel positive that Margaret Macdonald's vision was totally Satan at work. Believing this non-Biblical theory tends to keep people in Acts and prevents them from seeing the much more glorious calling found ONLY in Paul's post-Acts books. Anyone can have this calling but, like anything in the Bible, it can only be achieved by faith - see it - believe it - act on it.

The history of dispensationalism is possibly the most worthless information that one could waste their time with. I don't identify with any of those videos because none of them apply, at all, to the type of dispensationalism I identify with. There are 3 basic types of dispensationalism, Acts2, Acts9, and Acts28. I see no benefits to believing the first 2 - how does it benefit a person to believe that the church started at Pentecost (Ac2) or when Paul was converted (Ac9)? Worthless information.

Acts 28 dispensationalism is very much different, although I would prefer calling it Believing Your Bible. Although we believe the church, which is His Body, where Christ Jesus is the Head, started at Acts 28:28, that fact is not important. The important thing is to see that, in Ephesians, there is an offer to every believer of a calling to the uncreated heaven where Christ now sitteth at the right hand of God. You could have this calling but you first have to see it, believe it, and act on it. This makes Acts 28 dispensationalism the only important school of Biblical thought. Outside of believing in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for our salvation, Acts 28:28 dispensationalism is the only school of Biblical thought in the world where the believer actually gains something tangible from believing it.

Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 1:4, Ephesians 1:20-21, Ephesians 2:6, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 4:10 and that's only some of the Ephesians verses. I haven't even started on the other 6 post-Acts books. Your calling isn't in Acts. Remove your blinders and see your true calling.

Please notice Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1:17-23. In vs 18, Paul says: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, Why would Paul pray that your understanding be enlightened so that you might see the hope of your calling, if this calling weren't something brand new. He had been preaching the old calling from Acts for many years and surely everyone knew about it.

I would guess that only about 100,000 Christians in the world see this calling - that's about 1 out of every 22,000 Christians. The reason is that people are locked into the 100% Jewish Acts period and the main reason for that is Satan's pre-trib rapture nonsense. They don't want to give this up. They don't realize that the "rapture" for those believers in the Ephesians calling is totally different than the rapture in Acts. It is definitely pre-trib and it is far above the heavenly calling in Acts.

The vast bulk of the Gentiles saved during Acts were those that "feared God". The term, "those that fear God" was a Jewish technical term back then for Jewish proselytes, whether circumcised or uncircumcised, who believed in Jehovah, and attended the synagogue meetings, where they were put in their own section. I see no evidence of any slimeball gentiles, like you and I, having being saved during Acts. Are you so deluded that you still put yourself into the Acts Gentile group?

Biblewriter said:

So, although pre-tribbers typically quote this scripture, they do so only to establish the rapture as a scriptural fact. Then they go on to the other scriptures that show when this event will take place.

I have pointed this out to BABerean2 repeatedly, but he continues to post this completely false claim that we give this scripture as evidence of the timing of the rapture.

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The fact of the matter is that pre-tribbers fail to connect the word "sleep" in 1st Thessalonians 5:10 to the word "sleep" in 1st Thessalonians 4:14, because the text in between the two verses provides the timing of the event and therefore destroys their doctrine.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



This is the truth plainly written in the text.


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BABerean2 said:

The fact of the matter is that pre-tribbers fail to connect the word "sleep" in 1st Thessalonians 5:10 to the word "sleep" in 1st Thessalonians 4:14, because the text in between the two verses provides the timing of the event and therefore destroys their doctrine.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



This is the truth plainly written in the text.


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baberean2,

What is your plain scripture or scriptures to prove a post trib rapture? Jerry Kelso

BABerean2 said:

The fact of the matter is that pre-tribbers fail to connect the word "sleep" in 1st Thessalonians 5:10 to the word "sleep" in 1st Thessalonians 4:14, because the text in between the two verses provides the timing of the event and therefore destroys their doctrine.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



This is the truth plainly written in the text.


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Some of the things you say really perplex me. I do not see how you manage to interpret a comparison of these verses as making any problem whatsoever for a pre-tribulationist. I have long been aware of both of these verses, and have long treasured both of them. So how do you make this out to even be a problem for a pre-tribulationist?

jerry kelso said:

baberean2,

What is your plain scripture or scriptures to prove a post trib rapture? Jerry Kelso

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Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


This is the end, because it plainly says this is the time of the judgment of the dead.

Revelation chapter 12 begins with a history of Israel including the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the man-child, which is Christ.

The end is also found in chapter 6, in chapter 14, in chapter 16, in chapter 19, and chapter 20.

John was given a series of overlapping visions that are not in chronological order.

Forcing the Book of Revelation into a purely chronological book produces the nonsense often seen today coming from Jack Van Impe and others.

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BABerean2 said:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


This is the end, because it plainly says this is the time of the judgment of the dead.

Revelation chapter 12 begins with a history of Israel including the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the man-child, which is Christ.

The end is also found in chapter 6, in chapter 14, in chapter 16, in chapter 19, and chapter 20.

John was given a series of overlapping visions that are not in chronological order.

Forcing the Book of Revelation into a purely chronological book produces the nonsense often seen today coming from Jack Van Impe and others.

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You have completely proved your point, assuming that the Lord is only coming back one time. But you have not proved that, and you cannot prove that, for the scriptures simply do not say that.

Biblewriter said:

You have completely proved your point, assuming that the Lord is only coming back one time. But you have not proved that, and you cannot prove that, for the scriptures simply do not say that.

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Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The angel did not say anything about a secret coming when Christ would not return to the earth.

He will return in like manner, just as He left.

This "parousia" is found in multiple passages of scripture.


Tim LaHaye did not even get the title correct.

Those "taken" in Matthew chapter 24 will be destroyed, just as those "taken" in the flood were destroyed.



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BABerean2 said:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


This is the end, because it plainly says this is the time of the judgment of the dead.

Revelation chapter 12 begins with a history of Israel including the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the man-child, which is Christ.

The end is also found in chapter 6, in chapter 14, in chapter 16, in chapter 19, and chapter 20.

John was given a series of overlapping visions that are not in chronological order.

Forcing the Book of Revelation into a purely chronological book produces the nonsense often seen today coming from Jack Van Impe and others.

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baberean2,

1. You don't understand correct context.

2. The first two scriptures have no living righteous being caught up to meet the Lord and the righteous dead in heaven.

3. Matthew 25:31 talks about the Lord coming back with his angels into the throne of his glory. This is the second coming but there is no mention of earthly saved saints meeting the Lord in the clouds with the righteous dead who are in heaven. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16. You need to learn to read.

4. 1 Corinthians 15:23; by itself is an open ended statement and does not state the righteous dead and the righteous alive on earth being united. Assumption on your part.

5. You would say it is the second coming for all the righteous dead and alive are Christ at his coming. This is not the second coming and v 24 is not about the kingdom being set up because the KOH has to be set up first and sin and rebellion has to be put down first which is in the reference of 1000 literal years.
V 25 says, For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

6. This delivering up of the kingdom which is the KOH earthly reign cannot happen till Christ reigns and puts down his enemies once and for all. This will not happen until 1000 years after the earthly KOH has been in existence because Satan will be put in at the beginning of the 1000 years and will be loosed at the end of the 1000 years and then God will send fire out of heaven to put down the final rebellion of Gog and Magog which is not the same as Ezekiel 38-39. Revelation 20:1-9 shows this plainly of Satan bound at the beginning of the 1000 years and loosed at the end of the 1000 years so he can deceive the nations Revelation 20 2-37-9.
You need to learn proper context.

7. 1 Corinthians 15:51; the righteous dead of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 are not asleep which means dead. Once again random picking and still is not a plain statement to prove your post-trib position.

8. 1 Corinthians 15:52 explains the rapture of the righteous dead and the righteous saints living but the last trump is not the last trump in Revelation 11:15 because there is more that happens in the days of the 7th trumpet which is in the middle of the tribulation. Also, the rapture was a mystery that was unveiled and the second coming was not a mystery. So it doesn't fit the scenario of the second coming.
Revelation 10:7; But in the days of the voice of the 7th angel, when he shall begin to sound the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. This mystery of God is not Revelation 11:15 about the Lord coming back at the second coming for that was no mystery. The second coming has to do with the restitution of all things which Peter preached in Acts 3:19-21. All the prophets prophesied about the Day of the Lord and even Paul and Peter taught about the Day of the Lord which is the second coming 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10 and read all the minor prophets like Malachi and Joel. I guess you forgot about them scriptures. Also, Revelation 12 is still in the time of the middle of the tribulation because this is when Satan is fixing to turn the baton over to the Antichrist in Revelation 13 and when the time of Jacob's trouble begins and Israel goes into this time according to Daniel 12:2.
Since Satan cannot get the man child who is the 144,000 and not Christ because John had already seen Christ resurrection and this is a future context of fulfillment according to the rules of the time factor Revelation 1:19.

9. 2 Timothy 4:1 10. The judgement of the quick and dead is in reference to 2 Timothy 4:8. The crown of righteousness he will be judged on the day of his appearing which will be the rapture and not the second coming. The second coming we are coming out of heaven which will be all living saints to do the battle of Armageddon.
It is also not the believer's judgement of works such as in 2 Corinthians 3:12-15 and Revelation 11:18.
You got the context wrong again because of what you think it says plainly. Plain statements have to harmonize with the context. So once again you missed it because of your tunnel vision. I already explained Revelation 10:7 the mystery of God was not the 2nd coming in the old or new testament.

10. Revelation 11:15 are angels proclaiming of what was fixing to happen because it is the time of Jacob's trouble and the 2nd half of the tribulation dealing with Israel's purging Daniel 9:24-27; Isaiah 66:7-8; Daniel 12:2; Matthew 24:15-20.

11. The time of the dead is at the end but the believers judgement of works is in heaven in the middle of the tribulation. The wrath to come is the Wrath of God which is under the 7 vials which won't be in the middle of the tribulation.
The 7 trumpet angels are a part of the Wrath of the Lamb Revelation 6:17. The vials are under the Wrath of God for they are judgement only on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 15:1 and 16:2.

12. Revelation 15:1 has the righteous dead who didn't take the mark and were killed also known as the Blessed dead Revelation 14:13 and the ones that the 1st half tribulation souls under the altar had to wait on to avenge their blood in Revelation 6:9-11.

13. These righteous dead from the tribulation match up perfectly with Revelation 20:4-6 which only have the dead resurrected up from the tribulation and there are no righteous alive meeting them in the air. So as usual you are wrong even with your so called plain statements and the context as well. You cannot harmonize your plain statements with the proper context especially when you have tunnel vision and that is why you will keep coming up with the same wrong answers. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

So as usual you are wrong even with your so called plain statements and the context as well. You cannot harmonize your plain statements with the proper context especially when you have tunnel vision and that is why you will keep coming up with the same wrong answers.

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In other words the rapture event cannot occur on the same day as the Second Coming, because it destroys John Darby's Two Peoples of God/ Two Kingdoms of God doctrine.

We must force the text to match up with John Darby's plan to have the Church in a heavenly kingdom and the Jews in a separate earthly kingdom.

Forget about the New Covenant promised to "the house of Israel" in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found "now" in effect in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Forget that Christ said He would fulfill the New Covenant in His Blood during the Last Supper. Matthew 26:28

Forget that 3,000 of those of "the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36, who had called for Christ to be pierced a few weeks earlier witnessed the pouring out of the Spirit and accepted the New Covenant on the day of Pentecost.

Forget that the early Church was made up of Israelites.

Forget that the Gentile Branches were grafted in among the Israelite branches who accepted Christ in Romans chapter 11.

Change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of time in Romans 11:26, in order to produce a future time of "national salvation" for modern Jews, even though Christ said that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a nation being forth fruit.

Forget that the covenant in Romans 11:27 is "now" the New Covenant, because the Deliverer came out of Sion about 2,000 years ago and took away the sins of all races of people at Calvary.

Forget that the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Forget that those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11 are under the Grace of the New Covenant.


Yes. We can make your doctrine work, but it requires us to turn God's word into a pretzel to make it work.

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BABerean2 said:

In other words the rapture event cannot occur on the same day as the Second Coming, because it destroys John Darby's Two Peoples of God/ Two Kingdoms of God doctrine.

We must force the text to match up with John Darby's plan to have the Church in a heavenly kingdom and the Jews in a separate earthly kingdom.

Forget about the New Covenant promised to "the house of Israel" in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and found "now" in effect in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Forget that Christ said He would fulfill the New Covenant in His Blood during the Last Supper. Matthew 26:28

Forget that 3,000 of those of "the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36, who had called for Christ to be pierced a few weeks earlier witnessed the pouring out of the Spirit and accepted the New Covenant on the day of Pentecost.

Forget that the early Church was made up of Israelites.

Forget that the Gentile Branches were grafted in among the Israelite branches who accepted Christ in Romans chapter 11.

Change the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of time in Romans 11:26, in order to produce a future time of "national salvation" for modern Jews, even though Christ said that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to a nation being forth fruit.

Forget that the covenant in Romans 11:27 is "now" the New Covenant, because the Deliverer came out of Sion about 2,000 years ago and took away the sins of all races of people at Calvary.

Forget that the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

Forget that those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11 are under the Grace of the New Covenant.


Yes. We can make your doctrine work, but it requires us to turn God's word into a pretzel to make it work.

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baberean,

1. Darby has nothing to do with this. I showed and proved by the scriptures. You want to associate him with me and what I explained according to the word and proved your plain statement doesn't harmonize with the proper context and didn't have nothing to do with a plain statement of the second coming specifically.
So you have stated the first point that the scripture proved you wrong so you are skating in the no spin zone.

2. The church is in heaven in before, during, and after the tribulation Revelation 4:10 represented by the church saints 11:18; JBW and 19:11-15 coming out of heaven

3. Even if you deny and don't believe 4:10 and 11:18 you cannot deny 19:11-15 that the saints are coming out of Heaven with Christ. These saints will be all the saints before the church through the tribulation period both jews and gentiles to set up the kingdom for all the raptures of the righteous will be fulfilled before the second coming and who will be a part of the second coming coming out of Heaven in Revelation 19:11-15.

4. The Heavenly kingdom you state is not a kingdom as such as the KOH on earth. It is a heavenly calling around the ruling around the universe. However, the church age saints will also be a part of the earthly reign KOH 2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 5:10.

5. So you have misunderstood the saints before the church, during the law period and during the church period and afterwards in the tribulation and what their calling and purpose are within their destiny.

6. The Jews have to go through Jacob's trouble which is a jewish term and is never used in reference to the church going through. Isaiah 66:7-8; Israel's travail that brings forth her children, Daniel 12:2; a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. This is the same reference in Matthew 24:11-21. Verse 15 calls it the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand. This goes back and connects with Daniel 9:26-27 that talks about the sanctuary being destroyed and the city and the covenant being confirmed and causing the oblation to cease in the middle of the 70th week. This connects with Revelation 6:1-4; Antichrist rising to power and a crown given to him and he went forth conquering and to conquer. He also has power to take peace from the earth and a great sword is given to him etc. and 11:1-2 concerning the desecration of the temple and the gentiles given the outer court. It is all a part of the context of Daniel 9:26-27.

7. The new covenant was offered to them for there was no church of Jews and Gentiles as such as in Acts 2 or Acts 10. However, the jews rejected that covenant as a nation and as the promise of them ruling and reigning in the KOH earthly reign. It was based on obedience and you know that for I have quoted the scriptures multiple times and you just keep denying it.

8. This is why Jeremiah 31 was not given to the nation of Israel at Calvary. Calvary died for the whole world which was prophesied he would do and it was also prophesied the jews would only reject him. This is why Paul said in the latter part of Romans 11:11; but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealously.

9. Jesus whole message of the KOH physical reign on earth was to a nation who had the covenants which Paul said in Romans 3:2 the oracles of God;

10. Romans 11:29 the gifts and callings and Ephesians 2:12; the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise.

11. In Jesus day the jews were both backslidden and out of covenant Matthew 4:17; Repent for the KOH is at hand; Matthew 5:4 to mourn and be comforted is repenting and they had to perform all those beatitudes to come back into covenant as well as repent.
Isaiah 53:3 talks about the Messiah being rejected and they were in Matthew 23:37-39.

12. They were to obey as a nation so the Messiah would set up the kingdom Isaiah 9:6; For unto us a child is born and unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulders and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

13. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever, The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. This is a physical kingdom and not a spiritual kingdom alone.

14. Daniel 7:13-14 have one like the son of man who will be Christ and the Ancient of Days the father and the father gives the son the kingdom and at the end of the 1000 years the kingdom is delivered up to the father from the son in 1 Corinthians 15-28.
Matthew 28:19 has the apostles who will be in the kingdom ruling and reigning specifically over the 12 tribes of Israel. The kingdom was not set up physically or spiritually in the day of transfiguration even though it foreshadowed of what would happen in the future when the KOH would be set up.

15. The new testament is the term used in Matthew 26:28 but it is still the same as the new covenant in his blood according to Hebrews 8:6-7. This covenant was for the whole world to be able to accept John 3:16 not the promise of ruling the KOH by the jews because they rejected Christ. You won't make this distinction because it disagrees with your wrong doctrine of the jews being offered the kingdom again when Jesus said it was not for them to know the times and seasons for only the father knew. This means there was no mandate for the apostles to witness just jews so the nation could have the chance to get it back. Jesus prophesied destruction in Matthew 24 which was the curse for disobedience under the Mosaic law.

16. The kingdom given to another was talking about the spiritual KOG; Matthew 6:33, Luke 17:20 not the physical kingdom for there is no theocracy where Christ rules with a rod of Iron physically as in Psalm 2:9.

17. The reason the apostles didn't have a clue about the big picture of the mystery of the church is because it wasn't revealed until Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean with Cornelius. The wall of partition was torn down at Calvary but was not fully understood till 8-10 years later.

18. The Day of Pentecost there were gentiles there as well who were there as proselytes but also the church was basically jewish from the days of Jesus ministry. You don't allow any room for history to unfold at all or gradual revelation either. The eunuch of Ethiopia was an authority figure under Candace queen of the Ethiopians and is not said to be a jew or a proselyte even though he could have been. Not everything was revealed to them when the cross and resurrection happened or even after. They were having enough trouble with the law keepers trying to put the new believers under the yoke of Bondage which was the Mosaic law and Peter mentioned this in Acts 15:5-11. This was after the vision of the clean and unclean.

19. Your translation of so and then is flawed and false and not true because the fulness of the time of the gentiles has not happened and Christ who is the deliver from Sion has not come out of Sion which is the Heavenly Sion and he has not turned Israel away from ungodliness. This will not happen until the end of the tribulation which Zechariah and Revelation both reveal.

20. The new testament or covenant in his blood is everlasting and no one can be saved but by the blood. This is even more reason that Israel will accept the suffering Savior concerning the death, burial, and resurrection. Hebrews 8:7-13. He will put his laws into their hearts and have mercy on their hearts and it will be because they will look upon them whom they pierced which is seeing the suffering Savior and believing in the new covenant to save them because they cannot be saved by the old covenant anymore than the first time even though Christ had to offer them.

21. You haven't rebutted anything I have shown by the scriptures but you have given your opinion and what your teachers have taught you. You need to get out of systems and into harmonizing the word of God in the proper context even plain statements. It is plain to see from your posts you are not doing proper debate and rebuttal according to the scriptures. Like I said before you think you can give your interpretation and that is enough to rebut the scriptures and context I gave. You need to learn to address the specific point and to rebut properly not just giving your side and thinks that works because it don't. Jerry kelso

Except for those involving deity, there are very few absolute, smoking-gun passages in the Bible. To answer many questions, it requires "weighing" the evidence: putting the scriptures indicating one interpretation on one side of the scale and the scriptures indicating that this interpretation is not correct on the other side. The seemingly correct answer would be whichever side is the heaviest. However, there are many questions that are not 100% answerable. At best, we can only say that the truth leans toward a certain answer.

The pre-trib rapture theory is one of these types of questions - is it or isn't it? From what I know, there is no smoking-gun passage that says that the saints in question will absolutely be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation. In facts, the so-called "proof" verses for this are extremely iffy, even when they are all combined together. On the other hand, it definitely says it will happen at the last trump, when the trumpet is sounded - 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The way it's written and not explained, the readers (or, hearers) back then would surely already know what this "last trump" is. The only "last trump" of the NT that I know of is the 7th and last trump of Revelation.

I see no way that the "last trump" can be interpreted any other way. It is the closest thing to a smoking-gun passage for this question that there is. I've seen a lot of dishonest attempts to dismiss the "last trump" as being some other trumpet or sound. One dishonest soul even tried to prove that the "last trump" wasn't really a trumpet sounding but was some sort of noise that sounded like a trumpet.

Thinking about myself, it makes no difference whether it's pre-trib or post-trib. I have a totally different "rapture." It's called the "appearing" and the only place you'll find it is in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles Colossians 3:4, 1 Timothy 6:14, 2 Timothy 4:8. I will appear in the uncreated heavens when Christ Jesus first appears there. In Ephesians 1:20-21, Ephesians 4:10, it shows that this is where Christ Jesus is now hid in God. In Ephesians 2:6, it says that I am already seated there. In Ephesians 1:4, it says that I was chosen for this BEFORE the creation. The people Paul is addressing in Thessalonians were chosen FROM (or, since) the creation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

The only people on the planet, as a group, who see this different calling in Paul's last 7 books are the Acts 28 dispensationalists. After you see it, it's so very obvious. However, if you read Eph, etc., with the rapture of Cor and Thess in mind and your brain in Acts, you will miss it. Those that find their hope in the books written during the Acts period are essentially Jews that falsely think they are Gentiles. The only books that are 100% for today's Gentiles, with Israel not involved at all, are Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2 Tim, Titus, and Phile.

So, what will happen to those believers who just can't see the hope of the calling in Eph and still believe in the hope and calling during Acts? Will they still get the far better hope of Eph? I don't think so. I think that, in this case, you get what you believe. Faith is the substance (reality) of things hoped for, but this faith has to be in something that is true.

Acts 2 dispensationalists are basically fundamentalists without the Gospels. Acts 9 dispensationalists are Jews, sort of, who think they are Gentiles. Acts 28 dispensationalists are the only people in the world who see the obvious far better calling in Eph, etc. Of the 3 brands of dispensationalism, only Acts 28 offers you something that you would not have otherwise. Once you see it, you will wonder why everyone doesn't see it. Be a Berean and get out of Acts. See your TRUE calling in Paul's last 7 books. Start with Ephesians 1-3.

The battles fought by Ac2D and Ac9D are mainly over when the church started and when Israel became Lo-ammi. These things are also important for Ac28D but they take a second seat to the far more important aspect of being able to see the far, far better calling found in Eph.

jerry kelso said:

This is why Jeremiah 31 was not given to the nation of Israel at Calvary. Calvary died for the whole world which was prophesied he would do and it was also prophesied the jews would only reject him.

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Spiritual salvation has always been through faith on an individual basis, instead of a national basis or through bloodline.

You continue to replace Israel of the Promise with Israel of the Flesh in Romans 9:8.

The veil in the temple was ripped in half on the day of the Cross.
The Old covenant, the Levitical priesthood, the sacrifices and all of the Old Testament shadows were "finished" at Calvary.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

The New Covenant made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.
God is not going back to the Old Covenant.

You cannot have someone under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11, without them being under the Grace of the New Covenant.

You are trying to distance yourself from Darby, while you are promoting the doctrine he brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

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ac28 said:

Except for those involving deity, there are very few absolute, smoking-gun passages in the Bible. To answer many questions, it requires "weighing" the evidence: putting the scriptures indicating one interpretation on one side of the scale and the scriptures indicating that this interpretation is not correct on the other side. The seemingly correct answer would be whichever side is the heaviest. However, there are many questions that are not 100% answerable. At best, we can only say that the truth leans toward a certain answer.

The pre-trib rapture theory is one of these types of questions - is it or isn't it? From what I know, there is no smoking-gun passage that says that the saints in question will absolutely be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation. In facts, the so-called "proof" verses for this are extremely iffy, even when they are all combined together. On the other hand, it definitely says it will happen at the last trump, when the trumpet is sounded - 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The way it's written and not explained, the readers (or, hearers) back then would surely already know what this "last trump" is. The only "last trump" of the NT that I know of is the 7th and last trump of Revelation.

I see no way that the "last trump" can be interpreted any other way. It is the closest thing to a smoking-gun passage for this question that there is. I've seen a lot of dishonest attempts to dismiss the "last trump" as being some other trumpet or sound. One dishonest soul even tried to prove that the "last trump" wasn't really a trumpet sounding but was some sort of noise that sounded like a trumpet.

Thinking about myself, it makes no difference whether it's pre-trib or post-trib. I have a totally different "rapture." It's called the "appearing" and the only place you'll find it is in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles Colossians 3:4, 1 Timothy 6:14, 2 Timothy 4:8. I will appear in the uncreated heavens when Christ Jesus first appears there. In Ephesians 1:20-21, Ephesians 4:10, it shows that this is where Christ Jesus is now hid in God. In Ephesians 2:6, it says that I am already seated there. In Ephesians 1:4, it says that I was chosen for this BEFORE the creation. The people Paul is addressing in Thessalonians were chosen FROM (or, since) the creation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

The only people on the planet, as a group, who see this different calling in Paul's last 7 books are the Acts 28 dispensationalists. After you see it, it's so very obvious. However, if you read Eph, etc., with the rapture of Cor and Thess in mind and your brain in Acts, you will miss it. Those that find their hope in the books written during the Acts period are essentially Jews that falsely think they are Gentiles. The only books that are 100% for today's Gentiles, with Israel not involved at all, are Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2 Tim, Titus, and Phile.

So, what will happen to those believers who just can't see the hope of the calling in Eph and still believe in the hope and calling during Acts? Will they still get the far better hope of Eph? I don't think so. I think that, in this case, you get what you believe. Faith is the substance (reality) of things hoped for, but this faith has to be in something that is true.

Acts 2 dispensationalists are basically fundamentalists without the Gospels. Acts 9 dispensationalists are sort of Jews who think they are Gentiles. Acts 28 dispensationalists are the only people in the world who see the obvious far better calling in Eph, etc. Of the 3 brands of dispensationalism, only Acts 28 offers you something that you would not have otherwise. Once you see it, you will wonder why everyone doesn't see it. Be a Berean and get out of Acts. See your TRUE calling in Paul's last 7 books. Start with Ephesians 1-3.

The battles fought by Ac2D and Ac9D are mainly over when the church started and when Israel became Lo-ammi. These things are also important for Ac28D but they take a second seat to the far more important aspect of being able to see the far, far better calling found in Eph.

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ac28,

1. Proper hermeneutics and proper history of how God dealt with men in different ages has to be understood properly.

2. Hermeneutics involve things such as plain statement, double references, allegory, etc. but all has to agree with proper context and comparing of scriptures and connecting the dots correctly.

3. Whether pre, mid, or post all have their own context of whatever people's reference is of biblical history, etc. and can be right in their own context but not necessarily right in the biblical context. They all have some truth even though it may not be in the right frame of reference according to the subject. Extreme doctrines have a little bit of truth for the most part somewhere in their doctrine and then some don't.

4. No matter what position one may hold of the rapture the scripture tells us to occupy until he comes. This means that those who believe in pre-trib and use it merely for escapism and don't witness are wrong according to this verse. Much of the time this is never really the case if at all for true believers, it mostly pertains to those who are more professors or just being a little slack in their faith and walk and care for others in the love of the Lord. After all, Satan is out there to steal, kill, and destroy our lives in any manner possible.

5. The last trump mentioned in Revelation is in the 7th trumpet but this doesn't mean that it is. The plain statement has to line up with the context of the subject even if they are found in two different passages.
Case in point is that in 1 Corinthians 15:31 Paul says I die daily and in Romans 6:10 talks about dying to sin once as Christ died. This is a spiritual meaning in Romans 6 but in 1 Corinthians 15 it is not because Paul had already died once to the flesh as Christ did and he believed in mortifying his members and not sinning. Even Peter said the flesh has ceased from sin so it will not perform the things of the flesh.
1 Corinthians 15 is talking about people who didn't believe in the resurrection in verse 12 and Paul said if there is no hope for a physical resurrection then everything is in vain and we are stupid and might as well eat, drink and be merry because there is no tomorrow.
To understand the phrase about putting his life on the line for Christ everyday to harmonize with that passage is Romans 8:36; killed all the day long, and accounted as sheep for the slaughter. The other passage is 2 Corinthians 4:10; always bearing about in our body the dying of the Lord Jesus. This is the message that they could be killed for and not dying to self everyday or to sin everyday. So your theory of the last trumpet and the last trump of the 7 trumpets in Revelation is not full proof and is not true if you understand the trumpets and the feasts.

6. The rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 is a mystery in Paul's time that he revealed where as the second coming of Christ was never a mystery and is a conclusive doctrine to the jews in the old and new testament. So this is another reason that your conclusion about the last trump and the 7th trump is dead wrong. The 7th trump is in the middle of the tribulation because Israel is fixing to go through some purging which is in Revelation 12 when Satan can't kill the man child who is the 144,000 and who is kicked out of Heaven at that time and is no longer the accuser of the brethren which is the mystery of God in Revelation 10. Then he chases after the woman into the wilderness where she has a place of refuge and then Satan goes after the remnant of her seed which denotes a birth which was the man child in reference to Isaiah 66:7. The remnant of her seed in verse 17 who is scattered and then it goes into Revelation 13 about the Antichrist kingdom who is handed the kingdom from Satan which deals with the ten horns and ten crowns which is another story.

7. Colossians 3:4 the appearing is when he appears in the cloud and we appear with him in glory which is not the earth for the second coming we are coming out of heaven to come to earth to fight at the battle of Armageddon.

8. 1 Timothy 6:14; the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ is in the clouds and Christ will bring with him the righteous dead from heaven in verse 15 of 1 Thessalonians 4 and they will rise to immortality first before the living righteous dead and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The second coming we will have been in heaven for 7 years Revelation 4:10 represented by the 24 elders and Revelation 5:10 which is prophesied of being after the tribulation, then the Judgement of Believers works in Revelation 11:18 will be in the middle of the tribulation and is the same one as in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 and at the end of the tribulation will have eaten at the marriage of the supper of the Lamb of which even the last of the tribulation saints in Revelation 15 will be before we all come out of heaven to fight at Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15.

9. 2 Timothy 4:8 is the crown of righteousness which the Lord the righteous judge shall give me at that day and not me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. This is the Blessed Hope of Philemon 2:13 as well and has nothing to do with the Judgement of Believer's works as in 2 Corinthians 3:12-15 which is the same as Revelation 11:18 in the middle of the tribulation for it is in the days of the 7th trumpets.
The 7th trump does not bring the Day of the Lord to pass which is the second coming because it is in the middle of the tribulation, it is under the Wrath of the Lamb Revelation 6:16-17.
The Wrath of God under the 7 vials is what leads to the battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ for the vials are judgement on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 15:1 and 16:1, down through 19.

10. Ephesians 4:10, 1:4 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 has to do with the plan of God being predestinated as well as those who respond to the gospel. This has nothing to do with the second coming.

11. There are different calling of the church concerning rulership positions and concerning the different rulership positions of the jewish nation. That is plain to see in Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 9:6-7, Isaiah 66:7-8, Matthew 28:19 and on and on.

12. First, the whole Bible is for all to understand in correct perspective.
The jews had rejected the message of Jesus and they rejected the message the apostles doctrine as well and Paul's message in Act 28 was in line with Romans 9-11 of the jews rejection and that is why the gentiles come into the picture to provoke them to jealously.
The church even back was really jews and gentile in one body alike because the wall of separation was torn down which Paul revealed in Ephesians so the body would be one new man Ephesians 2:14-16 and this happened at the cross. The mystery was not revealed by the apostles until Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean and of course Paul in the desert of Arabia the second time and after Acts 28. Another words it was approved at the cross but didn't come to real fruition till Acts 10.

13. The epistles of Paul are to mainly the gentiles but it doesn't mean that the jews were not a part of it because the church is made up of jews and gentiles in the body for we are all in Christ if we are saved. The only requirement to be of the church of Jesus Christ is to be saved whether jew or gentile in this age of the church.

14. The people from the Antediluvian period through the patriarchs and the law period of Moses and today who didn't see the rapture will be a part of the righteous dead of 2 Thessalonians 4:15-17 unless the people of today provided the Lord comes while they are living they will be still be changed and raptured up with the righteous dead in 2 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

15. Hebrews 11:1 has nothing to do with those saints at that time not being able to actually see the coming of the Lord. They didn't see the rapture or the second coming. The elders in verse 2 obtained a good report for believing by faith. Christians can have faith for things and not realize it in this life. God didn't say we would necessarily get everything we pray for but we are to be faithful and if we do not receive down here we will gain it in heaven and that is why Jesus said lay up your treasures in heaven for they are eternal and will not fade away.

16. Acts 2 are not fundamentalists without the gospels. We have to understand the gospels as being under the Mosaic law and how Jesus had to fulfill the law of Moses in order to be the perfect sacrificial lamb and then those jews and all the people before could be completed in the process of perfection through salvation Hebrews 2:10 and Hebrews 11:40. They were not perfected till Calvary.

17. Acts 9 has nothing to do with jews thinking they are gentiles for the body of Christ is jews and gentiles in the body of Christ. We are all part of the body and those unbelieving jews can be grafted in with the gentiles just as the gentiles could be broken off if they didn't abide in Christ. This still doesn't hinder the different rulership positions in the coming kingdom that differ in the nation of Israel and the church for all will be in the earthly kingdom of heaven. Paul talks about it for the church believers who are saved jews and gentiles in this age and he also talks about the nation of Israel specific that have the covenants of being at the head of the nations from Isaiah 2:2-4 and 9:6-7 and Acts 9:25-29. Their calling and election are sure with the generation that obeys God in the time of Jacob's trouble which Daniel 12:2 talks about.

18. The bereans are not right in their doctrine of Acts 9-11 and the spiritual jew theory of Romans 2.
The spiritual jew is the true jew for they believe in Messiah's death, burial and resurrection to be saved and not the law of Moses which was satisfied by the perfect life and sacrifice of the Savior and then it was abolished. Read Romans 10:4 and 2 Corinthians 3:13-16.
The jews having a nation and a kingdom is a fact and all the Messianic christians that truly understand the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection and that don't have the veil over their face so they are not blinded understand their role in the earthly reign of the KOH. Jesus preached this message and they rejected it then but will receive it at the end of the tribulation Daniel 9:27, 12:2, Micah 5:2, Joel 1-3, Zechariah 13:9 and Malachi 4:5, Matthew 24 and Jeremiah 31 and Revelation 1:7 and on and on.

19. The church started with people from Jesus ministry and started officially with the cross and resurrection of Christ. The early church was still for Jews and gentiles but was primarily jews and they didn't have the full picture at the time. It grew gradually and came to fruition in Acts 10. Paul says in Ephesians that the mystery of the church was revealed to the holy apostles and not just him Ephesians 3:5.

20. The bereans get tunnel vision because they get closed in on one point and cannot see the total picture. This is what happens because of going to seed on Paul and the gentiles only ministry. This doesn't mean that there are not things of truth within this line of thinking but they make it a whole doctrine and it goes awry and then they accuse dispensationalists of the same thing for their systematic theology and this is why we have to be careful of getting too much into systems and going to seed on one point that makes one miss the big picture.
So the bereans are not correct in their theology of Acts 28 and Paul's only gentile church that excludes the jews. Peter was given a ministry that was more to the jewish christians but it didn't mean that he had not converted gentiles in his congregations. They also would not have been proselyted because Peter was already taught that lesson in Acts 10.

21. So I am sorry but according to the word of God you are not properly dividing the word of God. God warned both Jews of their haughtiness of having the covenant of promises as well as those in the church who took primary focus because of the jews rejection. It doesn't means that those who believe wrongly whether dispensationalist or Berean or others but it results many times in that manner and is still not correct of rightly dividing the word. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

In other words the rapture event cannot occur on the same day as the Second Coming, because it destroys John Darby's Two Peoples of God/ Two Kingdoms of God doctrine.

We must force the text to match up with John Darby's plan to have the Church in a heavenly kingdom and the Jews in a separate earthly kingdom.

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Actually, a rapture before the great tribulation was taught in early and late ancient times, in early and mid medieval times, in the time of the industrial revolution, in the time of the enlightenment, in the eighteenth century, and in the teen years of the nineteenth century (before Darby or Irving.)