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How many people, total, do you think will be saved from the beginning of time until the end of time?
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How many people, total, do you think will be saved from the beginning of time until the end of time?Heaven is only mentioned in 1 Thess 4, as the place Jesus departs from. NEVER as the place the Chruch goes to.
Jesus is Returning and is on His way to Jerusalem, specifically - the Mt of lives. Zechariah 14:4
Proved by Matthew 24:30-31, His angels will transport those who remain; to where He will be, - Jerusalem.
A typical topic diversion.How many people, total, do you think will be saved from the beginning of time until the end of time?
The Bible teaches that after the Second Coming of Christ, there will be a literal 1,000-year period known as the millennium. Revelation 20:4-6 describes this time where the saints will reign with Christ, and it clearly distinguishes this period from the final judgment.Why do you think there will be a millennium after Jesus returns at his second coming?
It seems to me that when the dead are raised, their bodies become immortal/incorruptible, and it is the end of time, aka Judgment Day.
John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.
The final judgment, aka the white throne judgment and the sheep and goats judgment, occurs immediately after Jesus' second coming.
A Latin word was co-opted to describe the "Meet the Lord in the Air" event in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.A typical topic diversion.
I am sure there will be many millions, whose names are Written in the Book of Life, Malachi 3:16-17 and will receive immortality after the Millennium.
As for the topic of this thread, I have yet to see any proof of a rapture to heaven.
I cannot imagine even one billion people physically living in a city called Jerusalem in Israel for a thousand years.Jan001, there have been, last I heard, into the 10s of billions of people born since man's creation.
Millions isn't very many compared to billions.
It seems to me that the judgment of all peoples begins with Jesus' second coming.The Bible teaches that after the Second Coming of Christ, there will be a literal 1,000-year period known as the millennium. Revelation 20:4-6 describes this time where the saints will reign with Christ, and it clearly distinguishes this period from the final judgment.
Revelation 20:4-6 says:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
While the resurrection of the dead does include the transformation of believers into immortal bodies, this is not the end of time. The millennial reign of Christ begins after His return, and only after this 1,000-year period does the final judgment occur (Revelation 20:11-15). Therefore, the resurrection and the millennial reign are distinct events from the final judgment.
The problem arises when people expand 1 Thess 4:16-17, to a trip to heaven.A Latin word was co-opted to describe the "Meet the Lord in the Air" event in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
This event will occur at Jesus' second coming at the same time as all souls receive their resurrected bodies.
John 5:28-29 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Malachi 3:16-17: Then those who revered the Lord spoke with one another. The Lord took note and listened, and a book of remembrance was written before him of those who revered the Lord and thought on his name. 17 They shall be mine, says the Lord of hosts, my special possession on the day when I act, and I will spare them as parents spare their children who serve them.
Hebrews 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; indeed, he has prepared a city for them.
When Jesus returns at his second coming, he will reward his faithful servants with eternal life in heaven.
We aren't spirits .... we are human beings who sin ... sinners are subject to death (possibility of two deaths)Scripture states that after Jesus died, He preached to the spirits of the people in Hades (Abraham's bosom). These spirits were not mortal. They did not die when their physical bodies died.
Jesus would not have preached to people who could not hear him and understand him.
1 Peter 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
I can assure you that Jesus did not preach to the spirits in hell. It would not benefit them in any way. Luke 16:24
Jesus also preached to the spirits in the prison part of Hades during his three days in the grave. These souls/spirits repented of their sins when the flood waters were drowning them while Noah was safely in the ark. They will have to remain there until they have paid the "you will reap what you sow" penalty for their sins. Matthew 5:25-26, Galatians 6:7
1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
Jesus laid down his life, because if he had not, no human could ever have entered into heaven to live with God. Adam's sin separated us from God. Only Jesus' death on the cross could make reparation for Adams sin, and thereby make it possible for mankind to be reconciled with God.
While John 5:28-29 speaks of a general resurrection and judgment, other passages in Scripture clarify that judgment occurs at different times for different groups. For example:It seems to me that the judgment of all peoples begins with Jesus' second coming.
John 5:28-29 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
When Jesus returns at his second coming, the people on earth will rise to meet him, and then they will accompany him to the Kidron Valley/Valley of Jehoshaphat for the judging of the sheep and goats/white throne judgment. After the judgment, the righteous will enter heaven and the unrighteous will enter hellfire.The problem arises when people expand 1 Thess 4:16-17, to a trip to heaven.
Such an idea is not there, or anywhere in the Bible and Jesus speaks against people going to heaven in 6 verses.
The millennium of the saints' rule is the time period between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. All the righteous souls presently in heaven are spiritually reigning with Jesus over heaven and earth. After Jesus' second coming, Jesus will turn his kingdom over to his Father. Death is defeated forevermore at Jesus' second coming.John 5:28-39 does not say when that hour is coming..... But we can know, as it is plainly paralleled in Revelation 20:11-15
AFTER the Millennium.
Hebrews 11:13-16 All these died in faith. They did not receive what had been promised but saw it and greeted it from afar and acknowledged themselves to be strangers and aliens on earth, 14 for those who speak thus show that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of the land from which they had come, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better homeland, a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.Hebrews 11:16 refers to the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:1
Again; AFTER the Millennium.
The dead do not remain unconscious in the grave. Lazarus' conscious spirit was in Abraham's bosom with Abraham's spirit in Hades awaiting the resurrection of Jesus. The rich man's conscious spirit was in hell in Hades.We aren't spirits .... we are human beings who sin ... sinners are subject to death (possibility of two deaths)
Jesus did not preach to anyone in hell (in the grave) he preached to them before they died and went to the grave.
Preaching in hell
This theory contradicts the biblical teaching that the dead remain unconscious in the grave until the final resurrection (Job 14:10-12; Psalm 146:4; Eccles. 9:5, Eccles. 9:10; 1 Corinthians 15:16-18; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15).
Man is created with an immortal spirit and a mortal body. After the resurrection, man will have both an immortal spirit and an immortal body.We should notice that in 1 Peter 3:1-22 the “spirits in prison” of verse 19 are identified in verse 20 as the “disobedient” antediluvians in the “days of Noah.” The term spirit (Greek pneuma) is used in this text, and elsewhere in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 16:18, Galatians 6:18), in reference to living people who can hear and accept the invitation of salvation. The expression “in prison” obviously refers not to a literal prison, but to the prison of sin in which the unregenerate human nature is found (Romans 6:1-23, Romans 7:7-25).
So in context preached to those who were in sin (in prisoned by their sin) in reference to those during the days of Noah
We are NOT immortal .... only God is.
1 Timothy 6:16
which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
We can not be mortal and immortal at the same time ... it states right here we are mortal (subject to death) until Jesus returns.
1 Corinthians 15:53-55
King James Version
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal (subject to death) must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
We are imprisoned by our sin (captivity) when we die we have no conscientiousness
The psalmist calls the grave "the place of destruction," "the dark," and "the land of forgetfulness." Consequently, death is a definite stopping point, and consciousness and experience do not continue in the grave. "The dead do not praise the LORD, nor any who go down into silence" (Psalm 115:17).
We are all judged as soon as we die, and then we go to our own place, which was previously prepared for us according to God's foreknowledge of our every thought, word, and action of our life. After Jesus' second coming, we will gather together in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and everyone will be shown the judgment of every other person who has ever lived.While John 5:28-29 speaks of a general resurrection and judgment, other passages in Scripture clarify that judgment occurs at different times for different groups. For example:
1. Believers are judged at the Bema Seat of Christ before the second coming:
2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
This judgment focuses on rewards for believers and occurs after the Rapture, not during Jesus' second coming.
There are only two judgments. Each person is judged immediately after his death.While John 5:28-29 highlights the resurrection and final judgment, it does not exclude the reality of prior judgments for believers and unbelievers occurring at different times in God’s redemptive timeline.
We are sinners ... ALL have sinned .... the wages of sin is death ... we are all subject to death .....The dead do not remain unconscious in the grave. Lazarus' conscious spirit was in Abraham's bosom with Abraham's spirit in Hades awaiting the resurrection of Jesus. The rich man's conscious spirit was in hell in Hades.
Man is created with an immortal spirit and a mortal body. After the resurrection, man will have both an immortal spirit and an immortal body.
Man is created with an immortal spirit and a mortal body. Not true
The First Resurrection is of the “dead in Christ.” The dead in Christ are those who, by the time of their death, loved God and accepted the sacrifice of Jesus (the promise)After the resurrection, man will have both an immortal spirit and an immortal body. True ... happens when Jesus returns
At the moment I don't have the time to respond to all here but I'll give you this concerning the first topic of your response.We are sinners ... ALL have sinned .... the wages of sin is death ... we are all subject to death .....
The gift of salvation is eternal life (delivered from death)
IF this parable is literal, do disembodied souls (immortal spirits) have real bodies? Do they have literal fingers and tongues?
The First Resurrection is of the “dead in Christ.” The dead in Christ are those who, by the time of their death, loved God and accepted the sacrifice of Jesus (the promise)
“And the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, ESV).
When the dead in Christ are resurrected, then they are then made imperishable—they cannot die again. They will have been made perfect, as humanity was always supposed to be.
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52, ESV).
After this resurrection, they will live for eternity in heaven and then in the New Earth. They will no longer experience pain, sorrow, or death.
Genesis 2:7
Modern English Version
7 Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.
The soul isn’t something that exists independently of the body. Instead, when the Bible talks about the soul, it is talking about the complete being—the living individual. Depicted in Genesis 2:7.
Acts 2:41
King James Bible
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls (people were added) not disembodied "spirits".
I agree totally.Yes, all have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). This death refers not just to physical death, but to spiritual death, which is separation from God. Because of sin, we are all subject to death—both physical and eternal. However, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23), which is the salvation He offers to those who believe in Him and receive His grace.
I agree in essence.Regarding the immortal soul and whether disembodied souls have literal bodies: The Bible does not present a definitive picture of disembodied souls having literal fingers or tongues, as the soul’s existence without the physical body is seen as a temporary state before the resurrection. While the Bible speaks of a spiritual body in 1 Corinthians 15:44, it suggests that this body will be different from our earthly bodies, not necessarily subject to physical limitations. For example, after Jesus' resurrection, He appeared in a glorified, physical body that could eat, yet it was transformed in ways that defied typical earthly experiences (Luke 24:39-43). Thus, disembodied souls may exist in a conscious, spiritual state awaiting the resurrection, where they will receive glorified, imperishable bodies.
Being mortal means subject to death .... we humans are most certainly are subject to death .... possibility of two deathsAt the moment I don't have the time to respond to all here but I'll give you this concerning the first topic of your response.
----
Yes, all have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). This death refers not just to physical death, but to spiritual death, which is separation from God. Because of sin, we are all subject to death—both physical and eternal. However, the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23), which is the salvation He offers to those who believe in Him and receive His grace.
Regarding the immortal soul and whether disembodied souls have literal bodies: The Bible does not present a definitive picture of disembodied souls having literal fingers or tongues, as the soul’s existence without the physical body is seen as a temporary state before the resurrection. While the Bible speaks of a spiritual body in 1 Corinthians 15:44, it suggests that this body will be different from our earthly bodies, not necessarily subject to physical limitations. For example, after Jesus' resurrection, He appeared in a glorified, physical body that could eat, yet it was transformed in ways that defied typical earthly experiences (Luke 24:39-43). Thus, disembodied souls may exist in a conscious, spiritual state awaiting the resurrection, where they will receive glorified, imperishable bodies.
The first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection. It is not a physical resurrection.We are sinners ... ALL have sinned .... the wages of sin is death ... we are all subject to death .....
The gift of salvation is eternal life (delivered from death)
IF this parable is literal, do disembodied souls (immortal spirits) have real bodies? Do they have literal fingers and tongues?
The First Resurrection is of the “dead in Christ.” The dead in Christ are those who, by the time of their death, loved God and accepted the sacrifice of Jesus (the promise)
“And the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16, ESV).
When the dead in Christ are resurrected, then they are then made imperishable—they cannot die again. They will have been made perfect, as humanity was always supposed to be.
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:52, ESV).
After this resurrection, they will live for eternity in heaven and then in the New Earth. They will no longer experience pain, sorrow, or death.
Genesis 2:7
Modern English Version
7 Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.
The soul isn’t something that exists independently of the body. Instead, when the Bible talks about the soul, it is talking about the complete being—the living individual. Depicted in Genesis 2:7.
Acts 2:41
King James Bible
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls (people were added) not disembodied "spirits".
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