The RAGE Virus

[SimplyNothing]

I'm not quite sure where to put this, as no forum exists for question in regards to one hundred percent biology, or microbiology in itself, but is it possible, in a hypothetical sense to create a rage virus, not as intense, but getting as close to as intense, as the one seen in the movie.

If we were to start off with a strand of Ebola, which already in itself induces a few of the symptoms seen in the movie, and then added some sort of genetic variables directly into its nucleus (through isolation, and the full insertion into a vector, thereby creating the transformation) that made two of its target sites, the adrenal medulla (or just the sympathetic nervous system in its entirety,) and the Amygdala (which includes the prefrontal cortex,) wouldn't this create the exact same symptoms.

Vomiting Blood
Red Eyes
Quick spread of the disease due to increased heart rate
High Blood concentration due to basic genetic structure of Ebola
Intense aggression

Especially with inhibition of the actions of the prefrontal cortex, this is almost guaranteed.

And full onset of symptoms, theoretically would happen very quickly, depending on the virus load itself, maybe even in a minute (due to that being how long it takes your heart to pump blood all over your body.)

I'm pretty sure it could work, and me and some friends of mine were discussing this earlier.

An adrenaline enhancing, primal ebola virus could do it... though the symtpoms of ebola might happen later on... the aggression would start almost immediately.

 

[Steezie]

A couple problems.

Someone who contracts Ebola usually dies within 7-14 days of organ failure. Also people who contract Ebola usually arent up to moving around after about three to four days after the onset. The pain of small holes being sliced in capillaries is excruciating and the results of which are not conducive to a great deal of movement.

Ebola also causes joint pain and weakness, muscle weakness, exhaustion, dizziness, and abdominal pain, again not conducive to running around.

You'd end up with people who REALLY want to move but cant because of the pain and other symptoms as well as the bleeding that can occur with Ebola. Also the Ebola would kill the person FASTER because of the excess of adrenaline, as adrenaline is an immunosuppressant

As for the adrenaline, there is a tumor that can occur on the adrenal gland of the body causing it to produce too much adrenaline, pheochromocytoma. Elevated levels of adrenaline result in high blood pressure, too much and you'll destroy your circulatory system, a large dose of it will un-stabilize your heart and could potentially stop it or send it into irregular rhythms.

You wouldnt end up with anything like 28 Days Later, you'd end up with people who just died faster.

Another couple of problems is heat, you'll heat the body up quickly to the point where organ failure begins and you'll just die faster. Also you'd have to shut down the frontal lobe of the brain to make this reasonable.

I know some of this isnt 100% correct, Im just going off the top of my head. But your scenario is not realistic

 

[SimplyNothing]

I know some of this isnt 100% correct, Im just going off the top of my head. But your scenario is not realistic

Absolutely not... but it's a total joy to debate.

Someone who contracts Ebola usually dies within 7-14 days of organ failure. Also people who contract Ebola usually arent up to moving around after about three to four days after the onset. The pain of small holes being sliced in capillaries is excruciating and the results of which are not conducive to a great deal of movement.

I recognized that, but if epinephrine and norepinephrine are released, the pain of the ebola virus and the cuts themselves is hardly felt, plus energy, anger and fear increase rapidly. So yes... if Ebola itself is what they were contracting I would agree with you.

Ebola also causes joint pain and weakness, muscle weakness, exhaustion, dizziness, and abdominal pain, again not conducive to running around.

Adrenaline increases muscle activity and dulls neurons to pain.

And yes I recognize that they die within 7 - 14 days... that is what happened in the movie as well.

You'd end up with people who REALLY want to move but cant because of the pain and other symptoms as well as the bleeding that can occur with Ebola. Also the Ebola would kill the person FASTER because of the excess of adrenaline, as adrenaline is an immunosuppressant

And ebola slows down the heart rate. That is actually the one thing I was wondering about... would it create an erratic heartbeat, like alcohol and energy drinks, or a steady heart beat, but still with the muscle activity.

I suppose it would all come down to how high the doses of adrenaline are, and how quickly they reach a-2 adrenic, and b-2 adrenic receptors threshhold levels.

And if Ebola's target site was the adrenal medulla, it would cause an increase in adrenaline, but I can't remember which lobe of the brain, perhaps the medulla oblongata, regardless, one of them tops off the amount of adrenaline released into the body (as indicated by the adregenic protein receptors,) so they don't die.

The reason I found this virus completely unrealistic was the virus load itself... that virus load would eitherr spread rapidly through the body, or cause intense cell death.

One of the two.

 

[The Nihilist]

hurray zombies

 

[SimplyNothing]

One other thing
theoretically the adrenaline would kick into action before the other symptoms of ebola, as long as you inserted a new target site into the vector of Ebola's DNA.

then the other symptoms should kick in later.
And as long as the amygdala is still in tact, the amount of adrenaline released should be regulated...

again... all speculation

 

[Ryal Kane]

I found the least realistic thing about 28 days later to be the impossibly fast incubation period. Even if that virus is all through your body, it's still only comparatively few cells. Viri use human cells to reproduce and human cells can't do it that fast.

A strain of rabies might be much worse than Ebola. It's 100% fatal eventually and could cause aggression and disorientation without too much reduction is physical capacity. Plus transmission through saliva nad increased bite reflex. It's an amazingly well evolved little virus.

 

[The Nihilist]

I liked the sequel way better

 

[Ryal Kane]

I liked the sequel way better

Agreed. Apart from the breathtakingly stupid and pathetic security measures they had.

 

[Steezie]

I recognized that, but if epinephrine and norepinephrine are released, the pain of the ebola virus and the cuts themselves is hardly felt, plus energy, anger and fear increase rapidly. So yes... if Ebola itself is what they were contracting I would agree with you.

You still have to manufacture that epinephrine and norepinephrine, your body has to regenerate it's supply and if you expend it quickly then you're not going to have enough to stave off the pain. Also adrenaline artificially boosts your energy supply but it doesn't supplement it, you need energy and an infected person would be burning through it at probably twice the rate of a normal human.

Adrenaline increases muscle activity and dulls neurons to pain.

The muscles are still weakened by the disease and while adrenaline does dull pain, it does it only to certain tolerances and only for so long. After that, you go into shock and die

And yes I recognize that they die within 7 - 14 days... that is what happened in the movie as well.

You'd be lucky if you had one live three to four days with the virus, if that.

And ebola slows down the heart rate. That is actually the one thing I was wondering about... would it create an erratic heartbeat, like alcohol and energy drinks, or a steady heart beat, but still with the muscle activity.

With the number and strength of different forces pulling on it, the stress would probably cause your heart to fail or go into cardiac arrhythmia and then fail.

I suppose it would all come down to how high the doses of adrenaline are, and how quickly they reach a-2 adrenic, and b-2 adrenic receptors threshhold levels.

Again, even if the dose isnt high enough to fry your body, you will still need to make MORE of it at some point and a human being's body isnt efficent enough to get that much energy into itself that fast to replace the adrenaline faster than its getting expended.

And if Ebola's target site was the adrenal medulla, it would cause an increase in adrenaline, but I can't remember which lobe of the brain, perhaps the medulla oblongata, regardless, one of them tops off the amount of adrenaline released into the body (as indicated by the adregenic protein receptors,) so they don't die.

Again, you can get a pheochromocytoma which is a tumor on the adrenal gland which can cause uncontrolled releases of adrenaline.

The reason I found this virus completely unrealistic was the virus load itself... that virus load would eitherr spread rapidly through the body, or cause intense cell death.

The human body wouldnt be strong enough to handle the effects of the virus and it would end up just frying the body before it could get up and bite someone.

 

[SimplyNothing]

You still have to manufacture that epinephrine and norepinephrine, your body has to regenerate it's supply and if you expend it quickly then you're not going to have enough to stave off the pain. Also adrenaline artificially boosts your energy supply but it doesn't supplement it, you need energy and an infected person would be burning through it at probably twice the rate of a normal human.

True

cause of death would be starvation... hypothetically.

The problem with Ebola itself, is that although it is a contagion, it destroys its host faster than it can spread the virus.

The muscles are still weakened by the disease and while adrenaline does dull pain, it does it only to certain tolerances and only for so long. After that, you go into shock and die

What the problem would be then... is the amount of adrenaline in your body would eventually run out?

Hmmm...

You'd be lucky if you had one live three to four days with the virus, if that.

I don't necessarily know if it's true...

As long as the medulla oblongata is still functioning, and the onset of symptoms (because of incubation period) is over a long period (though if its target site is the PFC, and the amygdala the rage would be almost instantaneous, while the ebola sets in) then what you'd have to worry about is dying from cardiac arrest after huge amounts of adrenaline are released into the system.

Again, this all comes back to your adrenic receptors and the processes that can limit the amount of adrenaline running through the body. Kinda like phinease Gage on crack. When his PFC was destroyed, he still had complete control of his body... but occasionally he would go into terrible rages that were adrenaline induced.

What regulated the amount of adrenaline going through his body was the Amygdala and the medulla oblongata. So if the PFC is continually stressed and the medulla oblongata is functioning, and the amygdala is stimulated... which would all happen assuming you effect the PFC itself... then hypothetically it would send somebody into a terrible, terrible rage. Because the PFC is the part of the brain that controls your anger and rage, even when you're extremely upset.

If you're angry to the point of killing somebody, the prefrontal cortex is the thing going "bad idea." Inhibit it, and what do you get?

Nothing telling your body to stop you from destroying whatever is making you angry.

And with epinephrine in your body and amygdala stimulation... the answer is... everything.

Again, you can get a pheochromocytoma which is a tumor on the adrenal gland which can cause uncontrolled releases of adrenaline.

MMmhmmm... that's why I realized, while continuing to see if its possible, that amygdala stimulation would be a much more effective way of creating an instant rage. Amygdala --> Hypothalamus --> Adrenal Medulla -Adrenaline/Noradrenaline

Along with the PFC inhibition, this would make you both angry, and fearful.

Plus it makes genetic engineering much easier.

The human body wouldnt be strong enough to handle the effects of the virus and it would end up just frying the body before it could get up and bite someone.

Potentially... I suppose it's all about how long the body could maintain some form of homeostatic balance before totally dying.

 

[SimplyNothing]

found the least realistic thing about 28 days later to be the impossibly fast incubation period

Agreed... that was the thing I did not like about the virus either. It infected so quickly... that it was impossible for it to be real (especially with no target site.) That's why I posit, that infection rate would be much faster if its target site was the amygdala, and the PFC. An almost instant rage would occur. The onset of the Ebola symptoms themselves would happen over a much longer period of time.

Though I hear, once they hit... they hit hard.

A strain of rabies might be much worse than Ebola. It's 100% fatal eventually and could cause aggression and disorientation without too much reduction is physical capacity. Plus transmission through saliva nad increased bite reflex. It's an amazingly well evolved little virus.

Not overly true. It does not create aggression in humans as much as it does canines or other mammals... but rather... paralysis. Then death.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

it seems to me that with the rapid onset of the virus it would be very difficult for it to spread across continents or off an island.
not to mention the health problems mentioned before.
"and i dont know why the rage doesnt make them attack each other"

 

[Steezie]

What the problem would be then... is the amount of adrenaline in your body would eventually run out?

Not run out, but it would be depleted faster than your body could manufacture it.

As long as the medulla oblongata is still functioning, and the onset of symptoms (because of incubation period) is over a long period (though if its target site is the PFC, and the amygdala the rage would be almost instantaneous, while the ebola sets in) then what you'd have to worry about is dying from cardiac arrest after huge amounts of adrenaline are released into the system.

You'd still only have a few days before the body burned itself out and you'd have maybe half a day or so before the adrenaline was gone. And again, adrenaline is an immunosupressant which would decrease the time between infection and manifestation of symptoms.

Again, this all comes back to your adrenic receptors and the processes that can limit the amount of adrenaline running through the body. Kinda like phinease Gage on crack. When his PFC was destroyed, he still had complete control of his body... but occasionally he would go into terrible rages that were adrenaline reduced.

Phineas Gage also had a crude lobotomy done by the steel rod which reduced his ability to deal with emotional problems.

What regulated the amount of adrenaline going through his body was the Amygdala and the medulla oblongata. So if the PFC is continually stressed and the medulla oblongata is functioning, and the amygdala is stimulated... which would all happen assuming you effect the PFC itself... then hypothetically it would send somebody into a terrible, terrible rage. Because the PFC is the part of the brain that controls your anger and rage, even when you're extremely upset.

This is true, but that rage will fade very quickly once the adrenaline is gone and even if it doesnt, you lose a lot of the benefits of it once its gone.

If you're angry to the point of killing somebody, the prefrontal cortex is the thing going "bad idea." Inhibit it, and what do you get?

Nothing telling your body to stop you from destroying whatever is making you angry.

And with epinephrine in your body and amygdala stimulation... the answer is... everything.

This is true, but you need something to fuel that anger and make you capable of destroying whats making you angry. You need to eat and the body will be burning energy double what it usually does and you wont be able to replace it quick enough.

MMmhmmm... that's why I realized, while continuing to see if its possible, that amygdala stimulation would be a much more effective way of creating an instant rage. Amygdala --> Hypothalamus --> Adrenal Medulla -Adrenaline/Noradrenaline

Along with the PFC inhibition, this would make you both angry, and fearful.

Plus it makes genetic engineering much easier.

Again, you still need a way for the body to produce adrenaline quickly and to get food and water into the body and have it process it quickly and efficently.

Potentially... I suppose it's all about how long the body could maintain some form of homeostatic balance before totally dying.

In every day life we have a homeostatic balance, if you start ramping up parts of our body, you disrupt that balance and things tend to fail at that point

 

[Ryal Kane]

If a virus only attacked brain function then it could prevent damaging the body in too much of a way, basically reducing someone to a feral state. They don't have to be hyper aggresive, just hungry. They could also last by eating and drinking.
If the virus attacked pain receptiors, it could also make someone constantly hurt so as to insite aggrsion or conversely, make them immune to pain (though not injury).

Ah, this thread is bringing out the scifi writer in me.

 

[Steezie]

If a virus only attacked brain function then it could prevent damaging the body in too much of a way, basically reducing someone to a feral state. They don't have to be hyper aggresive, just hungry. They could also last by eating and drinking.
If the virus attacked pain receptiors, it could also make someone constantly hurt so as to insite aggrsion or conversely, make them immune to pain (though not injury).

The problem is that humans are not great predators. Our nails are small and relatively weak, our teeth are small and not especially sharp, our vulnerable areas arent protected too well and they're very exposed. , we arent very strong and we arent very fast. If you dont bolster a person's physical abilities or give them a weapon, they are very poor predators.

You would, at the BARE minimum, need to make a person completely immune to pain all the time because the first person you attacked, you'd probably rip your nails out trying to dig into their skin and strain a muscle trying to kill them.

 

[SimplyNothing]

"and i dont know why the rage doesnt make them attack each other"

If you read the book, you find out that because their senses are heightened, they can smell an uninfected person... this however is completely unrealistic.

Then again... I suppose we're not in the realm of realism right now... just possibilty.

Not run out, but it would be depleted faster than your body could manufacture it.

So basically... run out.

The amount of energy you have would also be heavily dependent on the amount of glycogen stored within the liver.

Again... at best we're looking at maybe a four to 6 day period of life...

Again... at best.

You'd still only have a few days before the body burned itself out and you'd have maybe half a day or so before the adrenaline was gone. And again, adrenaline is an immunosupressant which would decrease the time between infection and manifestation of symptoms.

True... so the symptoms of Ebola would set in much quicker.

And the chemical reactions that create the substance that cuts the capillary walls would be produced much quicker.

Therefore... again... as I stated in the opening post, we're looking at a period of infection within a minute.

The thing about the virus... is that it is mostly neurological. Almost everything that is occurring to send something into a terrible rage is in the brain, with the exception of Ebola.

Another thing you forget about adrenaline, is that it puts the body into an emergency state, heightening blood sugar to the brain, blood flow, while suppressing other non-emergency bodily processes (digestion in particular... the most suppressed of all the useless bodily systems in an emergency situation).

Hunger... though it is an issue (primary cause of death theoretically being starvation,) is not an issue at first onset.

And upon thinking and doing a little more research. I actually don't think that the body running out of adrenaline would be a huge problem. When the amygdala is stimulated, again... ACTH is released to, which then allows the release of Tyrosine... and Adrenaline and Norepinephrine synthesis occur almost immediately, and rapidly... continually pumping it into the blood.

The feedback loop would probably look like this...

Amydala --> Hypothalamus --> ACTH --> Tyrosine --> Epinephrine/Norepinephrine --> Amygdala

So while the supply of epinephrine is being exhausted it is also being created for long term stress situation... such as lost in a jungle and whatnot.

Unlike many other hormones, epinephrine (as with other catecholamines) does not exert any negative feedback to down regulate its own synthesis.

This is true, but you need something to fuel that anger and make you capable of destroying whats making you angry. You need to eat and the body will be burning energy double what it usually does and you wont be able to replace it quick enough.

I know... hence why they will die of starvation...
but at least we're aware that the supply of adrenaline will never be exhausted... as long as the amygdala remains stimulated.

And because the digestive system is suppressed... I'm starting to think more like two weeks to live.

 

[Ryal Kane]

From a narrative point of view, the more you increase the intellegence ans survival capablities of your zombies, the less effective they 'work' as a threat. Zombies are scary because they're mindless relentless masses (there's a metaphor there but that's another thread)
Much of the 'trouble' with modern fiction is that we feel the need to rationalize things. Classic monster movies like the original Dawn of the Dead just say 'comet radiation' and leave it that.

The first third of Stephen King's 'Cell' features a pulse that travels through all phone networks and drives anyone who hears it violently insane. (Sadly the rest of the books stinks)
In James Herberts 'The Fog, the same violent insanity is caused by (you guessed it) a fog.

But I guess we're discussing reality here.

 

[SimplyNothing]

What I find enjoyable...is trying to take the infected... off twenty eight weeks or days later, and pushing them into the realm of possibilty.

That though of what if... though terrifying, is kind of interesting.

Again... if I inhibit the PFC completely... both the left and the right side (it controls a lot of higher brain function, including the abillity to talk)... they cannot talk, and their ability to make choices that are logical and to their benefit is thrashed until the inhibition ends.

So theoretically

-They would vomit blood
-They wouldn't be able to talk
-They would scream
-Their eyes would turn red
-They would be 4x faster and 4x stronger
-THeir organs would continue to function, despite Ebola... because of the adrenaline itself
-They would die as soon as adrenaline is no longer produced or from starvation
-Onset would be blindingly fast

But the symptoms would be

The only thing that couldn't ever happen... (well maybe it could if sense of both smell, and some sort of viral evolution occurred) would be its ability to pick out the uninfected, from the infected.

And they wouldn't growl like animals, as in the movie
They would just scream

Alot