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The quiet despair of Protestants

Just Another User

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Another note of import is that the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox do not have the terrible history of Catholic and Protestant lands of burning thousands at the stake for being declared witches.

Indeed. The murder of innocent men and women in a complete stain on Western Christianity. Witches weren't even believed until the 10th century for crying out loud! To add to the case of murder, killing any heretic for their beliefs is actually evil and cannot be excused under any circumstance. Absolutely sickening. We're told to love our enemy, not to burn them for being modalists and denying transubstantiation. Just judge the fruits of Rome and you'll realise how rotten the tree is.

My favourite point is that the sects of Calvinism, Lutheranism Zwinglism and Catholicism all persecuted Anabaptists despite being the most Christ-like group of Christians in a long, long time. Ironic really.
 
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Albion

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My favourite point is that the sects of Calvinism, Lutheranism Zwinglism and Catholicism all persecuted Anabaptists despite being the most Christ-like group of Christians in a long, long time. Ironic really.

How about the Cathars and Lollards?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Have you ever read Unam Sanctum, by Pope Boniface? Quite a piece of work, and there is no doubt he was invoking the authority of Peter.
The seven sons of sheva tried to invoke the authority of Jesus who Paul proclaims .....
 
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Basil the Great

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Yes, but did those torture bulls include the papal formula for infallibility? If not, Catholics will simply say it never carried the weight of infallibility. Unam Sanctum explicitly does pretend to have that authority.
All Ultra Traditional Catholics certainly believe that the three Papal Bulls from the Middle Ages that deal with salvation have the protection of Papal Infallibility. I dare say that most Traditional Catholics would concur, though many/most of them have to figure out how said Bulls have now effectively been revoked and I suppose that the doctrine of "invincible ignorance" is how they would explain the current Church's teaching on salvation and how it differs from those three Papal Bulls. Most Liberal Catholics would just say that the three Papal Bulls from the Middle Ages that deal with salvation were not safeguarded by Papal Infallibility.

As to the Bull that authorized torture, it includes nothing to show that it was specifically an infallible teaching, in and of itself. It was not even a teaching per se, but Church legislation. However, an Ultra Traditional Catholic could theoretically make the case that said authorization is protected by the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium doctrine, since the authorization was on the books of for 5 and 1/2 centuries and kept intact by many, many Popes.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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We might get to cover this in another thread some day. It differs significantly and vitally from what I see in Scripture (not in doctrines of men).
 
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Just Another User

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How about the Cathars and Lollards?

For the most part along with the waldensians, these groups were actually great (though the Cathars dualisitc beliefs was grounded Gnosticism and downright heretic I'll concede). I don't think they have as good a history as the early Anabaptists in my opinion. I prefer Anabaptists though because I believe they lived excellent and godly lives and due to them surviving better than the other groups to be a somewhat "popular" movement even to this day. To my knowledge, the Cathars were pretty much wiped out by a genocidal act started by Pope Innocent III with over half a million men women and children exterminated like animals.

What's ironic is that the Protestants as soon as they got some authority started persecuting just like Rome and that's when the great Anabaptist dealt with many trials against the rest of the world for many a year.
 
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rockytopva

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“Love will not be constrain'd by mastery. When mast'ry comes, the god of love anon Beateth his wings, and, farewell, he is gone. Love is a thing as any spirit free.” ― Geoffrey Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales

It seems though that any Christian congregation, when they get big enough to form a denomination, that the first thing to go is the original spirituality that made them unique, and in time they become just as bad as everyone else.
 
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Basil the Great

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Back to the OP.... there is no doubt that there is some truth to the thrust of the OP's argument. Protestantism, by it's very nature, lends itself to a certain degree of despair, as individual interpretation of Scripture, even in the light of the writings of the Church Fathers and the Nicene Creed, still leaves one with a degree of uncertainty.
 
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Just Another User

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So true. Excellent quote too. Power does corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Just compare what the early church believed to what those who claim to have the "historic" Christian faith have. As soon as we had power over man outside the realms of the church the rot began to set in.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth.
They sound like a minority. The majority believes scripture is the truth given to the Apostles. So I would not put much credence in this.
the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both.
You see both sides of this in scripture because they are both true however the context has changed over the centuries. The original reformation justification by faith alone, Luther, was specifically speaking of the RCC at that time. The RRC said you were not saved by faith but that you must add the dogma of the church as well, hence faith plus the works of the sacraments....all of them. That was then.
Now ....it has morphed into something quite twisted the "free grace movement", this may be what your group is speaking of. A movement by Zane Hodges of Dallas seminary that claims justification by faith alone means you don't have to have repentance with your faith and you don't have to have
good works or a change of life.
 
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☦Marius☦

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The Orthodox didn't "unify twice but changed their minds" a portion unified while the rest stayed to endure persecution. The ones who United never came back and became eastern Catholics. Not only that but the Russian, Bulgarian, etc Churchs existed at that time so only some Greeks unified

Also the OO have too much disunity from their variety of heresy caused by monophysetic theology.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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A very good example of Christian bullying. "We are bigger than you, have Apostolic authority, therefore if you don't agree with us, we will torture you, hang you, or burn you at the stake."
 
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RDKirk

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As a Marine colonel once said to some of my troops who were complaining about me tasking them for Saturday training, "If you know what Top told you to do, why are you asking me?"

Which of us doesn't know what the mission is? Which of us doesn't have enough information to go about fulfilling it?

What more do we really have to know? Everything else is a dinner discussion, what Paul called in Romans 14 a "disputable matter."
 
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hedrick

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What more do we really have to know? Everything else is a dinner discussion, what Paul called in Romans 14 a "disputable matter."
What is it about Christians that we don't seem to be able to treat anything as a matter for please conversation?
 
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ripple the car

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So, I do agree with the OP. The sheer amount of diversity in Protestant thought on vital and central points demonstates that something is not right. There is some wiggle room or capacity for diversity of thought / opinion within Catholic and Orthodox theology, but not to the extent that one sees in the Protestant world.
 
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Basil the Great

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Thanks for the reply. You are probably right in saying that not all of the Eastern Orthodox unified. The 2nd of the 3 Middle Age Papal Bulls dealing with salvation, Unam Sanctam, even referred specifically to "the Greeks".
 
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Basil the Great

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I wish there were more Christians like your dad. There are good things to be found in every Christian body and if we had more like your dad who visits different groups, then I think we would see more brotherhood and sisterhood within the family of Christ.
 
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salt-n-light

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I'm gonna respectfully state that post like these, are annoying because so frequency I see Catholics on CF taking time to prove that they are the true church when even their own church got LAYERS of issues and difference in ideology. Idk the amount of time thinking about how many ways can one address faith and works argument, you can actually spend that time getting to know God.

Faith and works are not separate, works are fruits and faith are the roots but Jesus is the vine.
 
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Basil the Great

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I understand what you are saying. However, it is hard to blame Catholics for speaking up in favor of what their Church teaches. We should probably admire their loyalty to Mother Church.
 
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