The quiet despair of Protestants

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[I know this is somewhat of a long post, so I have a request to make for those of you who will skim it: If you only read 1 paragraph, read the one I've bolded. Thank you, and may God's blessings be ever in your soul!:amen:]

Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.

But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works. We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.

In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.

But to say there is no theological truth seems like a contradiction to the nature of God!

Jesus is the truth; no one here will deny that. But does the truth say that we are saved by faith alone (believe in me and be saved), or by faith and works (all will be judged according to their works)?

God knows the Bible was written by many different authors to different audiences from different time periods. He knows that the Bible can be hard to interpret. He also sent us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us out. And as long as He's forming a Church, it's only logical that He would grant His Church guidance by the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth.

And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Papacy is vital to preserving the truth, and the framework for it is laid out in the Bible. Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

While we all have the Holy Spirit guiding us, we're imperfect in accepting it. Much of these forums would not exist if we all accepted the Spirit enough to be led to the truth, because these arguments wouldn't exist. Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him!:priest:
 

Tree of Life

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Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

Your argument is that since God has spoken infallibly in the Scriptures that therefore the Roman church teaches infallibly concerning faith and morals. It's a simple non-sequitur. These are two premises that you may personally hold, but the second premise in no way follows from the first.
 
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Brightmoon

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Even within Catholicism there are different though unofficial (and in some cases disapproved of) sects . They don’t believe in all the same things
 
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Chris V++

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And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him

Thanks for posting this. I don't think you'll get a lot of agreement from most protestants that the RCC teachings are thoroughly Biblical, hence the reformation. Some doctrines are more controversial than others. Select verses are cited as possible support for various doctrines, but there seems to be a lot of stretching of verses or a lot of extrapolation to make a few verses support much larger doctrines or dogmas which are then said to be confirmed thru tradition and papal infallibility. I do hope the subject can be discussed with the gentleness and self control that you request and deserve. I'm sort of confused myself right now and don't really wish to debate.
 
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BBAS 64

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[I know this is somewhat of a long post, so I have a request to make for those of you who will skim it: If you only read 1 paragraph, read the one I've bolded. Thank you, and may God's blessings be ever in your soul!:amen:]

Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.

But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works. We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.

In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.

But to say there is no theological truth seems like a contradiction to the nature of God!

Jesus is the truth; no one here will deny that. But does the truth say that we are saved by faith alone (believe in me and be saved), or by faith and works (all will be judged according to their works)?

God knows the Bible was written by many different authors to different audiences from different time periods. He knows that the Bible can be hard to interpret. He also sent us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us out. And as long as He's forming a Church, it's only logical that He would grant His Church guidance by the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth.

And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Papacy is vital to preserving the truth, and the framework for it is laid out in the Bible. Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

While we all have the Holy Spirit guiding us, we're imperfect in accepting it. Much of these forums would not exist if we all accepted the Spirit enough to be led to the truth, because these arguments wouldn't exist. Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him!:priest:

Good day,

Most of what you have stated here and the conclusions you have adopted for yourself lie out side of the Scholarship of the Roman Church herself...

You are an island.

Raymond E. Brown: Roman Catholics who appeal explicitly to Spirit-guided church teaching are often unaware that their church has seldom if ever definitively pronounced on the literal meaning of a passage of Scripture, i.e., what the author meant when he wrote it. Most often the church has commented on the on-going meaning of Scripture by resisting the claims of those who would reject established practices or beliefs as unbiblical. Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Doubleday, 1997), p. 31.

Continuing in the next sentence, Brown says, “Moreover, church interpretations of Scripture in Roman Catholicism are affected by qualifications laid out in reference to church teaching in general which have the effect of recognizing historical conditioning.” Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Doubleday, 1997), pp. 31-32.

Raymond E. Brown: To the best of my knowledge the Roman Catholic Church has never defined the literal sense of a single passage of the Bible.” Raymond E. Brown, The Critical Meaning of the Bible (New York: Paulist Press, 1981), p. 40.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Albion

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Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.
Unless I have misread that paragraph, what you are describing does not amount to "they believe that we don't have a Biblical truth."

It simply means that there is some disagreement among Christians of different denominations about what IS Biblical truth. You are referring to a gathering composed of members of different churches (you included), aren't you?
 
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A_Thinker

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CodyFaith

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Your evangelical Protestant friends were simply incorrect. You can know truth. The Bible was given so that a man, guided by the Holy Spirit, in submission to God, can read scripture and be guided into truth via the Holy Spirit.

Scripturally speaking eternal security is true, and one of the most fundamentally important "doctrines" to understanding the faith and scripture. And so with that in mind... that limits you to very few denominations left after "the cut". I'm not saying the other denominations aren't true churches or their members aren't saved (God's grace and mercy knows no such limits)... but they have grave errors, enough so that when one comes to the full truth of the gospel that they should not bring themselves under unecessary bondage or be a member.
But there are other things that limit it further. Universalist churches and United are incredibly leftist and distort the Bible's teachings while still holding to eternal security, for example. And after these things you are left with very few denominations... Baptist, some non-denominational churches, perhaps some Brethren, and maybe the Anglican/Episcopal church although there seems to be divided opinions within the church and a lack of focus on this primary doctrine.
So basically 2/3 denominations if I'm remembering correctly.

And within these evangelical Protestant denominations there is actually much unity. Very few topics are divisive or debated, most doctrine is firmly established and has been for some time.

As for the quote you provided, it is not true. Look to every Statement Of Faith on the websites of the evangelical Protestant churches I listed and all of them would say the church and her members are guided and unified through the Holy Spirit.

I'm not trying to offend you or others. God guides us all in our own ways and in our own time. But truth is truth and she is waiting to be discovered fully for all those who seek her dilligently. We should never settle on something that is false just because it suits us or is convenient for us. If you doubt, make sure you are at a place where you doubt no longer... only then will you be strong. If you are hardened, soften your heart and seek.
 
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Albion

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Your evangelical Protestant friends were simply incorrect. You can know truth.

And I strongly suspect that the other members of that club agree with that (^). Note what the OP told us about the matter--

We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.
Nothing in that paragraph says that the club members believe that you cannot know the Biblical truth.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works.
"For lack of (true) knowledge , MY people PERISH/ fail" God Says Clearly.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.
Not everyone's. Within some (few or many ) assemblies,

everyone may agree.
 
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Catholics see Protestants on forums like this argue over issues like predestination or baptism and assume we lack any sort of unity. The truth is most of us that have read the Bible achieve unity independently without constant affirmation from any one specific authority. That should attest to the power of the Holy Spirit leading a student toward the truth thru studying of scripture.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.
Not of Scripture, as Yahweh Says. Of men.

Yahweh made everything simple. MEN CAME UP with many devices.

Yahweh Reveals the truth about Salvation and everything concerning Salvation to infants (remember Jesus Praised the Father for this?)

What Yahweh Reveals is truth. No mixture. No deceptions. No lies. Nothing even remotely in error, ever.

What men do, well, is not like that. Not like Yahweh.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.


That's not what the Good Shepherd Jesus Says, not what Scripture Says,
and not what Yahweh Says, in Scripture nor in Spirit.
 
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