The question of lying

Saint Steven said:

The "majority of time"? What about the "times" outside of the majority of times? Are you not justifying those times? (even though you claim lying is NEVER justified)

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Not a contradiction. I was shifting to the motivation as to why people lie. I was not saying that there is ever a justification for lying, if people are not protecting themselves from a difficult or inconvenient situation. That is not my position.

Saint Steven said:

You also say, "Remaining silent is not a lie."
But, remaining silent may be a betrayal for personal gain. Would that be a sin?

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It goes to the heart attitude and since I do not know a person's heart other than what they demonstrate or speak, I can not say if remaining silent is a sin. It might be, it might not.

Saint Steven said:

If you had to choose between honoring a confidence (or protecting private information) would you remain silent to preference your own reputation above that of another? Especially when your silence obviously confirms the inquiry.

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If someone revealed something to me in known confidence, I would hope that I would remain silent, unless it involved known illegal or immoral activity as defined by the Bible. For example, if someone came to me and said, "I have been selling heroin to teenagers on a regular basis, but don't tell anyone." I would reply to them, "You need to stop immediately this action, repent of this and turn to Jesus Christ and seek His forgiveness. And you need to turn yourself into the police. If you do not, you are forcing me to report you." If I did not report them, I would be an accessory and I myself would be just as guilty.

Now if it was private information that was legal or moral, for example, if someone told me their password to their bank account, by the grace of God, I would never reveal that to anyone (remaining silent). Such as being given the Power of Attorney for someone. Even under a court order, that would be going against my conscience, which is not a safe thing to do.

That second case has nothing to do with prefer my own reputation, but honoring a legitimate trust.

JoeP222w said:

Not a contradiction. I was shifting to the motivation as to why people lie. I was not saying that there is ever a justification for lying, if people are not protecting themselves from a difficult or inconvenient situation. That is not my position.

It goes to the heart attitude and since I do not know a person's heart other than what they demonstrate or speak, I can not say if remaining silent is a sin. It might be, it might not.

If someone revealed something to me in known confidence, I would hope that I would remain silent, unless it involved known illegal or immoral activity as defined by the Bible. For example, if someone came to me and said, "I have been selling heroin to teenagers on a regular basis, but don't tell anyone." I would reply to them, "You need to stop immediately this action, repent of this and turn to Jesus Christ and seek His forgiveness. And you need to turn yourself into the police. If you do not, you are forcing me to report you." If I did not report them, I would be an accessory and I myself would be just as guilty.

Now if it was private information that was legal or moral, for example, if someone told me their password to their bank account, by the grace of God, I would never reveal that to anyone (remaining silent). Such as being given the Power of Attorney for someone. Even under a court order, that would be going against my conscience, which is not a safe thing to do.

That second case has nothing to do with prefer my own reputation, but honoring a legitimate trust.

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More contradictions and backpedaling to cover for your previous statements. No apology for your misstatements, just trying to squirm your way out of it. What was the topic again?

frater_domus said:

How would you handled the two given situations then?

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Fictional situations not really interested in.

As far as someone with mental health issues, I hope I would not lie to them.

Saint Steven said:

More contradictions and backpedaling to cover for your previous statements. No apology for your misstatements, just trying to squirm your way out of it. What was the topic again?

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Not interested in conversing with someone who insults me.

End of line.

mukk_in said:

Excellent argument. Hopefully, the Lord will accept it. I'll have to disagree as well, and I stand with Colossians 3:9. I don't recall the Lord ever lying, so that something good may happen.

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Can you lie to save a life?

Steve Petersen said:

Can you lie to save a life?

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Are you asking if is it morally justified to lie to save a life or are you asking if it is possible to lie to save a life? The answer to the latter question is yes it is possible though only under very unusual circumstances which almost none of us will ever encounter. The answer to the first is not so easily arrived at. My thought would be that if I were faced with a situation in which my deceiving a person or group of people that meant to murder another person or group of people was the only way to avert that from happening, I would find that I would feel compelled to deceive in such a situation. Does that mean that what I felt compelled to do was a righteous act ? I cannot say that I know the answer to that with any certainty. It may be that by averting a malevolent act (murder) my otherwise malevolent action (lying) becomes benevolent or it may be that a malevolent action is always malevolent and that I simply made a decision to choose to act malevolently in order to avert a malevolent action by others that I found to be more malevolent than my own action. Should my malevolent act still be malevolent despite my intention to benefit others, I would feel far less guilt and regret than if I had simply allowed murder to have been committed.

I think people spend entirely too much time trying to decide if something is, or more often was, a sin or not. I find it easier to simply assume, if I have the slightest question on the subject, that what I did was or what I am contemplating doing is a sin. That way, in the case of past actions taken, I will recognize my lack of perfection, repent and ask for the forgiveness I know is always there. In the case of future actions contemplated, I might refrain from more of them by virtue of my assumption that they must be sins. If my assumption is a mistaken one, no harm, or at the very least much less harm, is done.

frater_domus said:

Is lying ever justified?...

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I think lying is always wrong. But maybe sometimes the result is not very bad. The problem in your cases is, you don’t really know what would have happened, if you would have said something else that would not have been a lie.

…all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Rev. 21:8

But I think it can be forgiven.