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THE PURPOSE OF TONGUES IN THE ASSEMBLY

Dave...

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It's important to understand the history of it in the Old Testament to know what is actually happening in Corinth when Paul speaks about it, both encouraging, and rebuking.


Tongues is just a sixteenth century word for languages. I think that some people like the term 'tongues' because it giveth them a magic hocus pocus feeling. It just means languages. No need for the sign anymore. It's primary purpose has went and gone. The secondary uses that were necessary to keep it Biblical went with it. One of the main reasons tongues were spoken at Pentecost pointed towards A.D 70. as was noted in the link provided, God's judgment on Israel. Tongues were also spoken to show by way of miracle that God's "Promise of the Father" that was owed to OT saints was being given, the NT indwelling that all Christians receive the moment Jesus places the Holy Spirit in them, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It also showed that God was undoing the confusion of languages that He caused way back in Babylon to evangelize the whole world. The Gentiles were now grafted in per Romans 11:17-24 to provoke Israel to jealousy. Please at least glance over the link provided if you're going to respond. Thanks.

Dave
 

Richard T

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Though I disagree theologically with your conclusions. mainly because tongues serve more purposes than just judgment at least in the new testament. Plus, as a Pentecostal tongues are an integral part of my faith, experience and gateway to the power and revelation of God. In Acts 2 and about three other instances in Acts, tongues were a sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not judgment.

Here is an alternative use of tongues too The reversal of Babel: Questioning the early church's understanding of the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts as a reversal of the curse of Babel
These authors set forth a part of tongues, (the cultural aspects) that I never heard in Pentecostal teachings. To me those authors are wrong on the total package, but they get this one part of tongues that others seem to neglect.

Complicating the subject of tongues, is the gift "various kinds of tongues" and what those are. Of course nearly all of this hinges on if one thinks the gifts have ceased.

I do like your teaching in this chapter on the OT pattern, message, refusal, tongues and dispersion. To me the pattern in the NT for the believer is MESSAGE (The Gospel) Acceptance (Born again) Tongues (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and Unification (The body of Christ and unity with God).
 
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Rose_bud

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@Richard T Thank you for this.
Here is an alternative use of tongues too The reversal of Babel: Questioning the early church's understanding of the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts as a reversal of the curse of Babel
These authors set forth a part of tongues, (the cultural aspects) that I never heard in Pentecostal teachings. To me those authors are wrong on the total package, but they get this one part of tongues that others seem to neglect.

I recently watched a clip/summary of the Azusa Revival, and the message of what that movement meant is so lost and overshadowed by what some regard as sensationalist accounts. The truth of that experience is summed up in the context in which it manifested. In a time of racial tension and segregation, that unity would've been a powerful counter-cultural witness. This outpouring united people from different backgrounds in their understanding of the gospel, breaking down barriers. God's Spirit transcends human divisions, creating one body out of many.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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It's important to understand the history of it in the Old Testament to know what is actually happening in Corinth when Paul speaks about it, both encouraging, and rebuking.


Tongues is just a sixteenth century word for languages. I think that some people like the term 'tongues' because it giveth them a magic hocus pocus feeling. It just means languages. No need for the sign anymore. It's primary purpose has went and gone. The secondary uses that were necessary to keep it Biblical went with it. One of the main reasons tongues were spoken at Pentecost pointed towards A.D 70. as was noted in the link provided, God's judgment on Israel. Tongues were also spoken to show by way of miracle that God's "Promise of the Father" that was owed to OT saints was being given, the NT indwelling that all Christians receive the moment Jesus places the Holy Spirit in them, called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It also showed that God was undoing the confusion of languages that He caused way back in Babylon to evangelize the whole world. The Gentiles were now grafted in per Romans 11:17-24 to provoke Israel to jealousy. Please at least glance over the link provided if you're going to respond. Thanks.

Dave

My two cents:
I wish we would just stick to the definition of the first outpouring of the gift of tongues, why it was so important at this event and why " understanding " was vital to the mission of His Gospel. There wasn't one language, there were many languages being spoken. Coincidentally, there were Jews from different parts of the land all speaking those different languages. Tongues served to " spread" the Gospel to all with no language barrier. Other than that, all this angel prayer language stuff is just a diversion and frankly a false sense of Holyness. Additionally, tongues that have no interpretation is just as Paul described, ones own selfish edification.
Self-edification (via uninterpreted tongues) in a public setting is detrimental because it promotes what only benefits the speaker while neglecting the needs of the whole assembly, which Paul criticizes as a lack of focus on the common good and love for others. Lastly, an unintelligible collection of sounds is not a language and no one is able to interpret. Let us reason, please.

Blessings
 
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Richard T

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@Richard T Thank you for this.


I recently watched a clip/summary of the Azusa Revival, and the message of what that movement meant is so lost and overshadowed by what some regard as sensationalist accounts. The truth of that experience is summed up in the context in which it manifested. In a time of racial tension and segregation, that unity would've been a powerful counter-cultural witness. This outpouring united people from different backgrounds in their understanding of the gospel, breaking down barriers. God's Spirit transcends human divisions, creating one body out of many.

As to the Azusa revival, I find it quite interesting that Parnham and his students at Bethel College in Topeka, KS committed to be like the church in Acts, even pooling all their goods in common. That was where the Holy Ghost fell first and was later taken to Azusa street.
So unity, sharing in common, and seeking God all brought on the spark for revival. Perhaps a rededication to Acts is in order?
 
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Richard T

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My two cents:
I wish we would just stick to the definition of the first outpouring of the gift of tongues, why it was so important at this event and why " understanding " was vital to the mission of His Gospel. There wasn't one language, there were many languages being spoken. Coincidentally, there were Jews from different parts of the land all speaking those different languages. Tongues served to " spread" the Gospel to all with no language barrier. Other than that, all this angel prayer language stuff is just a diversion and frankly a false sense of Holyness. Additionally, tongues that have no interpretation is just as Paul described, ones own selfish edification.
Self-edification (via uninterpreted tongues) in a public setting is detrimental because it promotes what only benefits the speaker while neglecting the needs of the whole assembly, which Paul criticizes as a lack of focus on the common good and love for others. Lastly, an unintelligible collection of sounds is not a language and no one is able to interpret. Let us reason, please.

Blessings
If I may suggest it is possible that either of us and others have our assumptions wrong about Acts 2 and what actually happened. What if some of our assumptions are wrong? There were about 120 people in the Upper Room. Almost impossible that there were that many languages. So did they take turns speaking some of the same languages, was it 12 25, 50 different languages, all able to find a person who understood that specific language? Logistically that would take quite a bit of time. To me a possible alternative is that some in the Upper Room, jumped right into the gift "various kinds of tongues." Those people could be heard and understood while perhaps the others just spoke in unknown tongues as a result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Assembly of God and many Pentecostals believe that the baptism of the spirit and the gift "various kinds of tongues" are separate. Fewer however, suggest that a foreign language tongue in Acts 2 is a part of the gift divers kinds of tongues. We do know for certain though that prophecy (a gift) and tongues (Likely the baptism of the spirit as there was no interpretation) manifested in the disciples that received the Holy Spirit in Acts 19:6.
So to me it seems possible in Acts 2, that regular tongues came to some, while others operated in part of the realm "various kinds of tongues," speaking a foreign language. That some thought ones were drunk seems to support that not all were speaking a known tongue. Plus, drunk implies more than just strange speech. But no one can know for sure what each was speaking because the bible is not conclusive. There is no agreement on whether tongues is only a gift to some even because when Paul says "not all speak in tongues," many believe he is referring to the gift "various kinds of tongues and not the normal tongues that everyone can get from the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I do agree that tongues (the baptism of the spirit type) would be a poor use of church time. A tongue for interpretation is given as the Holy Spirit wills, it is an unction much like a prophesy or a word of knowledge if it is done right. I do disagree with those churches that use the "gifts on demand." I recently saw a few "healers" called up in a meeting. Their actions were to then each call out a specific healing to someone in the audience. It might work but I'd like to see the evidence. I know one prophet that teaches if you think your a prophet and going to just get up and prophesy at a meeting, you might disappoint the crowd; that you better be ready to teach or preach cause that gift and every other listed gift in I Cor 12 is totally reliant on the Holy Spirit.
No doubt the Upper room was quite an event. And while many do disagree on the uses and abuses of tongues, it is great to see any move of God that is genuine.
I can say that when churches pray in tongues for intercession at a prayer meeting, with nearly all intercessors praying on tongues, or groaning in the spirit, that those churches seem far more likely to have the power of God. A few churches might use the Sunday service time to stir up tongues to see what direction the Lord leads the Pastor. Eastwood Anabe's Church in Ghana is powerful when they do that, waiting on the Holy Spirit for direction in their three hour plus services. Many churches too sing in tongues for a minute or two during worship, something I fully enjoy, everyone praising God singing in their own tongue. When done resepectfully it is quite awesome to me. Having attended probably 200 Pentecostal Churches in at least seven nations I see lots of differences yet many things are the same. I would far rather be in a hungry church where they are not perfect in what they do towards God than a church that gives no time of place for the Holy Spirit to move. Of course many do copy a past move of God in the flesh, and that is worst of all.
Anyway, thanks for inspiring my thoughts on this subject. God bless!
 
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Rose_bud

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As to the Azusa revival, I find it quite interesting that Parnham and his students at Bethel College in Topeka, KS committed to be like the church in Acts, even pooling all their goods in common. That was where the Holy Ghost fell first and was later taken to Azusa street.
So unity, sharing in common, and seeking God all brought on the spark for revival. Perhaps a rededication to Acts is in order?
This is the origin of NT Pentecost, prayer, and generosity. I also believe God was raising the standard for unity when the message was continued through William Seymour. Not even segregation can limit God. When we continue to limit God, He pushes the envelope for unity and love. God continued to demonstrate through history the original message that all are one in Christ.


God is indeed not a respecter of persons, but accepts those who fear Him and does right.Acts 10:34-35
 
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The key to understanding Acts 2 is here,...

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 
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As to the Azusa revival, I find it quite interesting that Parnham and his students at Bethel College in Topeka, KS committed to be like the church in Acts, even pooling all their goods in common. That was where the Holy Ghost fell first and was later taken to Azusa street.
So unity, sharing in common, and seeking God all brought on the spark for revival. Perhaps a rededication to Acts is in order?

I wouldn't call it a revival, I would call it an Acts 2 outpouring.

Acts 2 is a template that can be repeated, so yes, you begin to have services 4 to 5 times a day, 7 days a week, where people are fasting, worshipping GOD, praying for long periods of time, getting into one accord,..... yea, your church will have it happen also.
 
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Dave...

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@Richard T

Hey Richard

For some reason, I can't post when I quote someone. I had to erase your quotes that I was replying to and just make it one big answer.

The conclusion that you disagree with was Paul's conclusion, not mine. He demonstrated that conclusion with a quote form Isaiah which, as you noted, is part of an established pattern in the OT leading into the NT of God warning Israel of His coming judgment on them (foreign languages) if they don't repent. All of the other teaching from Paul in 1 Corinthians 12-14 regarding tongues can be summed up very easily. They are the secondary benefits to keep that sign, when in operation, Biblical, while operating within the Body (church). There's nothing that tongues can do that I cannot do in my own language with complete understanding and better. Tongues as a sign of the Spirit baptism was for a unique point in time, see below.

That link that you gave, that's a big read. I'll try to look it over later.

Various kinds of tongues just means various kinds of languages. That's all.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is what makes us born again and justified. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that's what the baptism is, "places us" into Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13).


One cannot be born again without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which places us "in Christ" (Romans 8:9-10). The Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost. Tongues was only a sign of that Spirit baptism if you were a true OT believer who was due that promise because you already believed the Gospel before the cross, like at Pentecost for the Apostles and Jews, and just afterward, the Gentiles. Or, you were a true OT believer who had a genuine OT faith and were already declared righteous by that OT faith. You were predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness per (Romans 8:28-29). The sheep that the Father gave the Son, that He would not lose one of them (except Judas). They will hear His voice and follow, thus predestined to Christlikeness. Just like Lydia, Cornelius, and the OT believers in Acts 19. The transition. All these had the signs after receiving the Holy Spirit.

So unless you are a true OT believer already declared righteous in that faith, and still have not heard the Gospel, or, you are a true OT believer who heard the Gospel before the cross and believed, but were still due the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, then there is no reason to wait. The moment that a person today first believes in the Gospel, trusting in Jesus, Jesus then places the Holy Spirit in them (the Spirit baptism), which places them in Him, and makes them born again and justified. No tongues needed. No sign needed. No OT believers left who did not make the transition in faith and receive the Holy Spirit.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit unites believers in Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13), in answer to Jesus's prayer (John 17:20-23), and doesn't divide them, as todays Pentecostals and Charismatics believe.

Dave
 
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Dave...

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@Maria Billingsley

Hi Maria.

It can be a big topic. As you noted, love is the great qualifier of the genuine gifts, and it is not self seeking. Without love the gifts are from the flesh and useless. Paul specifically said more than once that we are not gifted to edify ourselves, but rather to edify the Body. That was the goal when using our gifts. Added to that the implied answer to the question 'Do all speak in tongues?' is no (Per Paul), so it cannot be a sign of salvation.

The Judgment that was coming to Israel came at A.D. 70. This is what the Pentecost signs pointed to. Pentecost was about AD 33. In 1 Corinthians (AD 53-55), Paul, who was dealing with a very worldly Corinthian church that had absorbed all the pagan mystery religion stuff, including what is now call tongues today, was gently correcting them. If you understand this, you will see exactly what Paul was saying in those three chapters. They didn't understand, so he told them. first, Paul quotes Isaiah, to show them what the real gift was, and what is was for. It wasn't ecstatic speech that spoke to or from the gods, it was a foreign language that symbolized that judgment was coming to Israel. Then Paul expressed the importance of everyone understanding in the assembly, of which prophecy did perfectly. But the final judgment on Israel didn't come down yet, so Paul also showed that if anyone spoke in a foreign language while in the assembly of believers, which was still a sign of Judgment on unbelieving Israel, that it must be interpreted so that everyone was edified and their was no confusion, because God is not the author of confusion.

It was a miracle at Pentecost for obvious reasons. It's not a miracle today, in fact, there is not one person, of any religion, or even an atheist, who cannot emulate what we see in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches and is called tongues today. So how could it be considered proof of anything?

What todays Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have does is taken Paul's what not to do's in 1 Corinthians 12-14 , and turned them into commands, and thus recreating the early Corinthian church with all its mystery religion stuff before Paul corrected them.

Here's a quote from Macarthur to show some history from that time and what was infiltrating and influencing the church of Corinth at that time.

"a. The Ecstasy of the Greco-Roman World

At the time of the Corinthian church, the Greco-Roman world had a multitude of gods. In their worship of these gods, it was very common for a person to go into ecstasy, which literally means "to go out of oneself." They would go into an unconscious state where all kinds of psychic phenomena would occur. They believed that when they were in an ecstatic trance, they actually left their body, ascended into space, connected up to whatever deity they were worshiping, and would begin to commune with that deity. Once they began to commune with that deity, they would begin to speak the language of the gods. This was a very common practice in their culture. In fact, the term used in 1 Corinthians to refer to speaking in tongues (glossais lalein) was not invented by Bible writers. It was a term used commonly in the Greco-Roman culture to speak of the pagan language of the gods which occurred while the speaker was in an ecstatic trance. By the way, this language of the gods was always gibberish.

b. The Eros of the Greek World

The Greeks had a word for this ecstatic religious experience. It was the word eros. Sometimes translated as sensual love, the word eros had a broader meaning. It meant "the desire for the sensual," or "the desire for the erotic," or "the desire for ecstasy," or "the desire for the ultimate experience or feeling." Their religion, then, was an erotic, sensual, ecstatic religion-- designed to be felt. In fact, when people went to their various temples to worship, they would actually enter into orgies with the temple priestesses. So the erotic, sexual, sensual, ecstatic religion was all rolled into one big ball along with the gibberish of divine utterances. And these mystery religions, which had been spawned in Babylon, had found their way into the Corinthian society...and the church.


THE INFILTRATION OF CORINTH INTO THE CHURCH

The Corinthian church had allowed the entire world system in which they existed to infiltrate their assembly. For example, they were emphasizing human philosophies (chapters 1-4), they had a hero worship cult (chapter 3), they were involved in terrible, gross, sexual immorality (chapters 5-6), they were suing each other in court (chapter 6), they had misevaluated their home and marriage relationships (chapter 7), they were confused about pagan feasts, idolatry, and things offered to idols (chapters 8-10), they had relinquished the proper place of women in the church (chapter 11), they had misunderstood the whole dimension of spiritual gifts (chapter 12), and they had lost hold of the one great thing--love (chapter 13).

You see, they had let the satanic system that existed in their society infiltrate the church. And with it came the pagan religious practices--with all of the ecstasies, eroticisms, and sensualities. The Corinthians accepted it all, creating a confused amalgamation of truth and error." Macarthur"

Dave
 
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My two cents:
I wish we would just stick to the definition of the first outpouring of the gift of tongues, why it was so important at this event and why " understanding " was vital to the mission of His Gospel. There wasn't one language, there were many languages being spoken. Coincidentally, there were Jews from different parts of the land all speaking those different languages. Tongues served to " spread" the Gospel to all with no language barrier. Other than that, all this angel prayer language stuff is just a diversion and frankly a false sense of Holyness. Additionally, tongues that have no interpretation is just as Paul described, ones own selfish edification.
Self-edification (via uninterpreted tongues) in a public setting is detrimental because it promotes what only benefits the speaker while neglecting the needs of the whole assembly, which Paul criticizes as a lack of focus on the common good and love for others. Lastly, an unintelligible collection of sounds is not a language and no one is able to interpret. Let us reason, please.

Blessings

The gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues are not listed in scripture as something for the furtherance of the Gospel. A lot of people over the years have "assumed" that such a gift would have to be used in missionary fields and such, but they "assumed" incorrectly.

By scripture,.... the gift of tongues has two purposes, personal prayer and corporate edification and inspiration. That's it.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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The gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues are not listed in scripture as something for the furtherance of the Gospel. A lot of people over the years have "assumed" that such a gift would have to be used in missionary fields and such, but they "assumed" incorrectly.

By scripture,.... the gift of tongues has two purposes, personal prayer and corporate edification and inspiration. That's it.
I respectfully disagree.
Thanks for sharing.
 
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ARBITER01

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I respectfully disagree.
Thanks for sharing.

It's not about what we personally think or believe.

There's no place in scripture where the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues were ever used for the furtherance of the gospel. No example. None.

But yea, you can disagree.
 
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ARBITER01

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Remember the old UFO picture that had the words under it "I want to believe." (I can't post the picture currently or I would.)

Unfortunately, that's where some people are at in their walk with Jesus.

We have to discipline ourselves to what scripture actually says and what The Holy Spirit teaches us, not what we think or want to believe for ourselves. Our personal beliefs have to give way to what scripture actually says, or we start believing in UFO's.
 
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Richard T

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It's not about what we personally think or believe.

There's no place in scripture where the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues were ever used for the furtherance of the gospel. No example. None.

But yea, you can disagree.
1 Corinthians 12:28 (ESV)
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
So what is the various kinds of tongues? It can promote the body of Christ, can be a set apart gift. Is it ceased? So we have prophets yet no "various kinds of tongues. Much of our notions are somewhat speculative. There is no definitive teaching on what the gift various kinds of tongues does.

Another point on tongues furtherance of the gospel.
When I was involved in the demonic the first Pentecostal service I ever attended, had a tongue given. I immediately sensed the power. It was highly impressive. Is that scriptural? Seems to me it is and it helps in the furtherance of the gospel. It was the first sign that got me interested in learning more about the power of God.
1 Corinthians 14:22 (ESV)
22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.
 
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1 Cor 14:
12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

That's a church service
 
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1 Corinthians 12:28 (ESV)
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
So what is the various kinds of tongues? It can promote the body of Christ, can be a set apart gift. Is it ceased? So we have prophets yet no "various kinds of tongues. Much of our notions are somewhat speculative. There is no definitive teaching on what the gift various kinds of tongues does.

Another point on tongues furtherance of the gospel.
When I was involved in the demonic the first Pentecostal service I ever attended, had a tongue given. I immediately sensed the power. It was highly impressive. Is that scriptural? Seems to me it is and it helps in the furtherance of the gospel. It was the first sign that got me interested in learning more about the power of God.
1 Corinthians 14:22 (ESV)
22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

When I say furtherance of the Gospel, I'm looking at if these gifts, the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues where ever used to promote, preach, or whatever, the Gospel of Christ in scripture. They were not. There is no example, nor should there be. They are for the body of Christ, the local assembly,....
 
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