The Purpose of the Torah

[Minister Monardo]

Come the AntiChrist, I will say the same.

You betta, you betta you bet!

 

[klutedavid]

(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he writes concerning Me.

(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing his writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"

(CLV) 1Jn 2:6
he who is saying that he is remaining in Him ought also himself to be walking according as He walks.

Yahshua walks in the Torah.

Moses writes of Jesus.

The law is the portrait of Jesus Christ, the only man to not only obey the law fully. Jesus far exceeded the requirement for holiness in the law.

Jesus was sinless and no man has ever been sinless, a fact.

Jesus gave the law to Moses and warned Moses that Israel must wait. Because in the future, one would come and they had to pay attention to Him.

If you cannot see Jesus from Genesis through Exodus, then I feel sorry for you Hark.

Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24:45
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

John 5:39
You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me.

Jesus is the alpha and omega, the beginning of the scripture and the end of the scripture.

Jesus is the beginning and end of time itself.

 

[HARK!]

Moses writes of Jesus.

The law is the portrait of Jesus Christ

I'm glad that you understand this. If we want to follow Yahshua's example; we will be obedient to our father's Torah.

Jesus was sinless and no man has ever been sinless, a fact.

Can you explain these verses to me?

(CLV) Lv 5:2
or when a soul touches any unclean thing, whether the carcass of an unclean animal or the carcass of an unclean domestic beast or the carcass of an unclean swarmer, even if it is obscured from him he has become unclean and has incurred guilt;

(CLV) Lv 5:3
or when he touches human uncleanness, any of its uncleanness by which he would be unclean, even if it is obscured from him, when he himself realizes it, then he is guilty;

(CLV) Lv 5:4
or when a soul swears, talking rashly with the lips to do evil or to do good as to anything of which a human talks rashly in an oath, even if it is obscured from him, when he himself realizes it, then he is guilty as to any one of these.

(CLV) Lv 5:5
It will come to be when he realizes his guilt as to any one of these instances then he will confess in what way he has sinned;

Are you suggesting that no unclean bug ever touched Yahshua? If not; maybe you need to reevaluate your understanding of sin.

(CLV) Hb 5:8
even He also, being a Son, learned obedience from that which He suffered.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

 

[klutedavid]

I'm glad that you understand this. If we want to follow Yahshua's example; we will be obedient to our father's Torah.



Can you explain these verses to me?

(CLV) Lv 5:2
or when a soul touches any unclean thing, whether the carcass of an unclean animal or the carcass of an unclean domestic beast or the carcass of an unclean swarmer, even if it is obscured from him he has become unclean and has incurred guilt;

(CLV) Lv 5:3
or when he touches human uncleanness, any of its uncleanness by which he would be unclean, even if it is obscured from him, when he himself realizes it, then he is guilty;

(CLV) Lv 5:4
or when a soul swears, talking rashly with the lips to do evil or to do good as to anything of which a human talks rashly in an oath, even if it is obscured from him, when he himself realizes it, then he is guilty as to any one of these.

(CLV) Lv 5:5
It will come to be when he realizes his guilt as to any one of these instances then he will confess in what way he has sinned;

Are you suggesting that no unclean bug ever touched Yahshua? If not; maybe you need to reevaluate your understanding of sin.

Jesus walked in pure love and Jesus can never sin. Impossible for Jesus to ever be unclean in any circumstances, including the laws above.

You may need to understand why Jesus was the PERFECT sacrifice!

 

[HARK!]

Jesus walked in pure love and Jesus can never sin. Impossible for Jesus to ever be unclean in any circumstances, including the laws above.

You may need to understand why Jesus was the PERFECT sacrifice!

You haven't really explained those verses.

 

[disciple Clint]

If we are a faithful bride; we will be obedient to our headship.

Some of these Pastors say that Yah's people no longer need to obey Yah's Torah.

Some say that Yah's people only need to obey the 10 commandments. Strangely, at the same time they will condemn homosexuality, an abomination that isn't in the 10; and it discounts the words of Yahshua, who said the the shema is the foremost precept.

They say that all we need to do is be faithful; but how can we be faithful, while in rebellion to the Torah?


(CLV) Mt 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are taking tithes from the mint and the dill and the cumin, and leave the weightier matters of the law (Torah), judging and mercy and faith. Now these it was binding for you to do, and not leave those.

Faith is the law. Those who are faithful are obedient to the law; and you won't find the word faith in the 10 commandments.

Faith goes all the way back to Abraham well before the law. God counted Abraham as righteous because of his faith. Abraham was righteous in the eyes of God and it had nothing to do with obeying any laws.

 

[HARK!]

Faith goes all the way back to Abraham well before the law. God counted Abraham as righteous because of his faith. Abraham was righteous in the eyes of God and it had nothing to do with obeying any laws.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

 

[daq]

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Yep, "and the scripture was fulfilled", that is to say, the statement in Genesis 15:6 wasn't actually fulfilled until many years later, in Genesis 22, when Abraham was tested and passed the test, (James 2:21). That's at the very least fourteen years plus whatever age Yitzhak would have been in Genesis 22.

 

[HARK!]

Yep, "and the scripture was fulfilled", that is to say, the statement in Genesis 15:6 wasn't actually fulfilled until many years later, in Genesis 22, when Abraham was tested and passed the test, (James 2:21). That's at the very least fourteen years plus whatever age Yitzhak would have been in Genesis 22.

Yep, and his faithful righteousness (obedience to the Torah) wasn't sealed until he was 99 years old.

(CLV) Ro 4:11
And he obtained the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which was in uncircumcision, for him to be the father of all those who are believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be reckoned to them,

If we start reading in the front of the book; it's easier to understand what's going on later on in the story.

 

[daq]

Yep, and his faithful righteousness (obedience to the Torah) wasn't sealed until he was 99 years old.

(CLV) Ro 4:11
And he obtained the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which was in uncircumcision, for him to be the father of all those who are believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be reckoned to them,

If we start reading in the front of the book; it's easier to understand what's going on later on in the story.

Hmmm, from about 85 to 99 years old, there's that number fourteen years again: seems I remember Paul on at least two occasions saying something about fourteen years. : )

 

[disciple Clint]

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

So then we debate the old question are we saved by grace and faith or by works. That question is answered in Paul's epistles, we are saved by faith just as Abraham was saved by faith long before God had given man any laws.

 

[HARK!]

So then we debate the old question are we saved by grace and faith or by works. That question is answered in Paul's epistles, we are saved by faith just as Abraham was saved by faith long before God had given man any laws.

Maybe you missed it.

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

 

[Soyeong]

Nothing wrong with following the 10 laws that God wrote in stone, no doubt that we will benefit by following those laws.

The Torah consists of more than just ten laws, such as those against kidnapping, rape, and favoritism.

What can be wrong is relying on them for salvation instead of relying on God's grace provided to those who have faith.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, which means that to rely on what God has instructed in the Torah is to rely on God, so why does it make sense to you that we should rely on God for salvation, but should not rely on what he has instructed for salvation? In Psalms 119:29 and Exodus 33:13, they wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey the Torah, and in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, so obedience to it is the way to rely on God's grace provided to those who have faith.

 

[Soyeong]

These verses reveal the purpose of the Torah:

In Genesis 18:19, God experientially knew Abraham that he might teach his children and those of his household to guard God's way Lord by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to Abraham all that He has promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply his offspring as the stars in the heaven, to his offspring he will give all of these lands, and through his offspring all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, and these verses reveal the object of the law insofar as God bringing about what He has promises is the object of Abraham obeying God's law and teaching his children and those of his household to walk in God's way in obedience to it.

In Genesis 12:5, Abram took Sarai, Lot, and the souls that they had made in Haran, which is referring to the converts that they had made, and in John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were Abraham's children, they would be doing the works Abraham did, so it is only because Abraham multiplied his offspring by teaching his children and those of his household to do the works that he did by walking in God's way in obedience to His law that God could promise to multiply his offspring as the stars in the heaven. In Leviticus 18:24-28, the land vomits out those who sin in transgression of God's law, so it is only to because the seed of Abraham were taught to obey God's law that God could promise to give them the land. Likewise, in Psalms 119:1-3, God's law is how to offspring of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way, so it is bring His offspring are teaching the nations how to be blessed by turning them away from their wickedness towards obedience to God's law that God could promise that through his offspring all of the nations of the earth will be blessed. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so he is the living embodiment of the nature of God expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so he is the ultimate fulfillment of these promises, who was sent to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).

God's way is the way in which He expresses aspects of His nature, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19) or other aspects of His nature (2 Samuel 22:21-37, etc.), God revealed His way through His law (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, etc), and it is through expresses aspects of His nature that we experientially know and are known by God, or in other words, that we are growing in a relationship with Him. When we express an aspect of God's nature through our obedience to His law, we are experientially knowing, believing in, testifying about, and expressing our love for that aspect of the nature of who He is, so everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded for the purpose of teaching us how to love different aspects of who He is, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God obedience to His commands (Exodus 20:6, 1 John 5:3, etc.), and why our good works bring glory to God (Matthew 5:16), why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him (Revelation 14:12, Romans 3:31, James 2:17-18, Hebrews 11, etc.), and why there are many verses that connect knowing God with walking in His way in obedience to His law (Jeremiah 9:3,6,13,24, 1 John 2:4, 3:4-6, Matthew 7:23). In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might experientially know Him, and Israel too, in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so multiplying eternal life/knowledge of God is the purpose of the promises that God made to Abraham.

 

[DamianWarS]

I've heard it again and again, from Pastors and Sunday school teachers, at various churches, of various denominations, and from Christians in general; that the purpose of the Torah is to show us that we can't keep the Torah.

What does YHWH say?

(CLV) Dt 4:40
Hence you will observe His statutes and His instructions which I am enjoining on you today, that it may be well with you and your sons after you, and that you may prolong your days on the ground that Yahweh your Elohim is giving to you, all the days.

I could be mistaken; but it looks like YHWH just said that we should keep his instructions that it might go well with us. Go figure.

(CLV) Dt 5:16
Glorify your father and your mother, just as Yahweh your Elohim had instructed you, that your days may be prolonged and that it may be well with you on the ground which Yahweh your Elohim is giving to you.

Hmmm... It looks like he said it more than once.

(CLV) Dt 5:29
O that their heart might become this way with them: to fear Me and to observe all My instructions all the days, that it might be well with them and with their sons for the eon.

It seems like there is a pattern here.

(CLV) Dt 5:33
In all the way which Yahweh your Elohim had enjoined on you, you shall walk that you may live, and it may be well with you, and you may prolong your days in the land that you shall tenant.

I'm definitely seeing some sort of pattern.

(CLV) Dt 6:3
You will hear then, Israel, and you will observe to do it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply exceedingly, just as Yahweh Elohim of your fathers promised to give to you a land gushing with milk and honey.

Wait... what's this? He's telling us to do something? I'm confused here. Wouldn't that be works?

(CLV) Dt 6:18
You will do the upright and the good in the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim that it may be well with you and that you may enter and tenant the good land about which Yahweh had sworn to your fathers,

There's that "do" word again! More that one Pastor has told me that we don't have to do anything; that Jesus finished the work on the cross.

(CLV) Dt 12:28
Observe and you will hear all these words which I am instructing you today, that it may be well with you and with your sons after you until the eon, for you shall do what is good and upright in the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim.

There's that "do" word again; and this time he said forever.

Is it possible that I am to do what YHWH instructs me to do; that it might be well with me?

Should I trust in YHWH; or should I trust my Pastors?

Gen 17:3-14 (quotation tags below)

Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

There are a lot of points in this passage. What stands out is God tells Abraham he will be the father of nations (v4,5,6) so the context here is just not Israel. The covenant that God establishes with Abraham is an everlasting covenant to him and his descendants. (v7) which is inclusive of the "nations". The promise of the covenant to Abraham and his descendants is everlasting possession of the land of Cannan. (v8). The instruction to keep the covenant for Abraham and his descendants is every male must be circumcised (v10). This is a sign of this everlasting covenant and includes any male of your household no matter how they are connected to you. It is not abstract in the text and is quite serious and any male not circumcised will be cut off from his people and the covenant broken (v14). This is emphasized quite a lot in the text and there is no mistaking the seriousness of it. In essence, any male that does not get circumcised will be circumcised themselves from this covenant.

Then Paul turns around and says "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts." (1 Cor 7:19).

Paul presents a conflict here. Because the "commandments" of God are to get circumcised but the Abrahamic covenant, which is foundational to the law, is quite clear of the seriousness of the covenant. So what Paul presents clearly is excluding the Abrahamic covenant in terms of physical requirements.

The Mosaic covenant has a similar language except instead of circumcision being the sign it is the Sabbath law that is the sign and the 10 commandments are the "two tablets of the covenant law" (Ex 31:18) and they are representative of the entire law (the very least the stuff before Ex 31). it too is an everlasting covenant to Israel and its descendants. The Mosaic covenant rests inside the Abrahamic covenant so if physically keeping the Abrahamic covenant is not included in Pauls's words the Mosaic covenant inherits the same fate. if you violate the Abrahamic covenant you violate the Mosaic covenant.

But the Abrahamic covenant shows us a hint about the meaning of all this without Paul's words saying in v8 that the promise of the covenant is everlasting possession of the land of Cannan. this is why it's called the "Promise Land". So may I go to Israel and declare possession in the name of this Covenant? I can't and doing so would be grossly misinterpreting this promise. The promise has layers to it where the physical is promised to Abraham and the immediate descendants (his son Issac and grandson Jacob), namely the Israelites. I am not an Israelite yet I can claim to be a child of Israel but this is a spiritual declaration, not a physical, and in the same way, I have shared possession, not of the physical land, but of a greater promise.

It is these greater promises that circumcision points to and what Sabbath points to. Yet no one here is arguing "circumcision and law" because the spiritual value is so clearly over the physical that the argument of the physical cannot be won. No male needs to be physically circumcised yet still can be called a child of Abraham and still can partake of the promise of the Covenant. Sabbath and Circumcision are mandatory parts of salvation they just have nothing to do with the physical. the seriousness of the covenant in Gen 17 only states the physical yet because of Paul we do not value it and look at it as spiritual. It is not the physical we look to, which is a theme essentially of the entire bible, it is the spiritual. Our rest cannot be found in the physical and by searching for the spiritual through the physical we will become restless.

You will find a strong affirmation of keeping the physical in the Old Testament or "that it may be well with you" because that is what the Old Testament is about. It is the physical declaration of the spiritual, it does point to the spiritual but it does so in darkness and can only reveal the physical. What it points to is far superior and it points to Christ. We are to search for every commandment through Christ, not through the physical efforts of ourselves. The physical law itself is in fact counter-sabbath (and that's the point) and it exposes our need for greater rest but we must repeat the physical over and over again because the physical can never appease. It's like the woman at the well, she mistook Christ's offer for living water as the physical. Her physical need was to return to the well over and over again (the sacrifice over and over again, the Sabbath over and over again, circumcision over and over again with each new male, etc...) what Christ gave her was far better and had nothing to do with the physical.

Honor the day and give glory to God in doing so, this is a good thing and should not be discouraged but know we cannot obtain God's rest through the physical.

 

[disciple Clint]

Maybe you missed it.

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

What statutes and what laws?

 

[sparow]

The covenant with David establishes the throne of righteousness, fulfilled by Messiah,
who was born into the house of David for that purpose.
There is no necessity for a king to fulfill the Torah, only a right spirit.
The Way of the Lord was established in the handing down of the Memorials
of Torah from generation to generation.
The Way of the Lord in the New Covenant is to receive the Holy Spirit by faith,
and walk in that Spirit, even as Abraham "obeyed His Voice". Genesis 26:5

You seem to have made some elementary errors; fulfill in relation to the Law seems to be wrong grammar; fulfill involves completion; to keep involves ongoing. In the Torah there is prophesy and promise; these are fulfilled, but the Law is kept even by Kings.

The God of the OT, the Word, Jehovah: wasn't hat God a spirit and wasn't that spirit Holy?

 

[Minister Monardo]

You seem to have made some elementary errors; fulfill in relation to the Law seems to be wrong grammar; fulfill involves completion; to keep involves ongoing.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
to fulfill=[G4137] pleroo
G4137 - plēroō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nkjv)
Galatians 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
================================================
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
the end=[G5056] telos -to accomplish, to realize, the full measure of...
G5056 - telos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

to keep involves ongoing.

[G3306] meno=keep, abide in, remain, continue
John 8:
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, If you abide in My word,
you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
G3306 - menō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The God of the OT, the Word, Jehovah: wasn't hat God a spirit and wasn't that spirit Holy?

Kings of Judah were anointed, and yet failed to keep the Law. Yes, they had the Holy Spirit, but
failed to abide under that anointing, even as every born from above believer must remain under
their anointing to "keep" the Torah.
If you are born from above, and have received the Holy Spirit, and you abide in that Spirit by
heeding the Voice of the Spirit, you are a living fulfillment of Torah.

To be "elementary" in our understanding....Receive God's Love, Give God's Love.

On the other hand, if you have moved beyond the elementary, you should have no
difficulty with this:
John 12:
24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies,
it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain.
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it
for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also.
If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

Fulfill the Law? Die to self, live by Christ alone.
Galatians 2:
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but
Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes
through the law, then Christ died in vain.

Based on the testimony of the Holy Spirit in me, I proclaim that Christ
Jesus did not die in vain. He forever lives.
Hebrews 7:
24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore, He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God
through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled,
separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens.

Halleluyah!

 

[The Liturgist]

@HARK!

The obligation for Gentiles to follow the Torah was clearly lifted by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. However, if you are a Messianic Jew, then I think Acts 15 would imply the Torah might still be somewhat in effect, although elsewhere in Acts and in the Pauline epistles it is made clear, for example, there are no longer unclean foods, so ceremonial portions of the Torah are clearly not in effect.

I am not sure the Torah would be binding even on Messianic Jews however, since the Torah can no longer be observed due to the destruction of the Second Temple. There is no legitimate means of making the various offerings or for a Levite or Cohen to provide the religious services required of him.

This is why I believe the most important thing for all Christians, including Messianic Jews, is to be baptized as an infant or on conversion, and to partake of the Lord’s Supper and the other sacred mysteries ordained by Christ as appropriate.

 

[sparow]

@HARK!

The obligation for Gentiles to follow the Torah was clearly lifted by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. However, if you are a Messianic Jew, then I think Acts 15 would imply the Torah might still be somewhat in effect, although elsewhere in Acts and in the Pauline epistles it is made clear, for example, there are no longer unclean foods, so ceremonial portions of the Torah are clearly not in effect.

I am not sure the Torah would be binding even on Messianic Jews however, since the Torah can no longer be observed due to the destruction of the Second Temple. There is no legitimate means of making the various offerings or for a Levite or Cohen to provide the religious services required of him.

This is why I believe the most important thing for all Christians, including Messianic Jews, is to be baptized as an infant or on conversion, and to partake of the Lord’s Supper and the other sacred mysteries ordained by Christ as appropriate.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

When Jesus was fulfilling the Law and the Prophets He was first fulfilling Dan 9:27, that is He was confirming the covenant; by fulfilling all the prophesies concerning Him in the Law and the prophets, He confirms that He is the messiah, He confirms the existence of and some of the fruition of the covenant, there still outstanding prophesy. This is an argument against the false doctrine that says Jesus fulfilled the 10 commandments so that you and I do not have to keep the commandments.


John 8:
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, If you abide in My word,
you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

There is nothing wrong with these verse, there can be a lot wrong with how people use them.