The Purpose of Prophecy

[Nihilist Virus]

In a previous thread I established my case on prophecy.

Spoiler

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 says,

15 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken?

22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It seems that a common misunderstanding about prophecy is that it is a display of God's power, and nothing more. That God makes a prediction, it comes true, and then... nothing happens because we're done here. This is not the case. The purpose of a prophecy is to show that the prophet actually does speak for God. If a prophet makes a prediction that comes true, then, as Deuteronomy 18 says, that prophet speaks for God. That prophet then goes on to do his actual work, which is relaying God's will to the people.

As for the main point of the thread, first notice that if a prophet's prediction does not come to pass, then he is a false prophet (verses 21-22). Notice also that false prophets shall be executed (verse 20).

No concept of a far-future prophecy is covered. If a prophet made a prediction that didn't come true within 500 years, he would have been considered a false prophet. Plain and simple.

So considering that there were 500 years between the last Old Testament writing and the birth of Jesus, and considering the very high cost of actually producing a book back in these ancient times, the probability that scholars would write down the words of a false prophet in a book and then copy it multiple times and preserve it for centuries is basically 0%.

Therefore, a clear, unambiguous prophecy that is 100% about Jesus and 0% about anything else simply does not exist. No such prophecy was ever intended. It's gospel writers taking the Old Testament out of context that have created a mess.

I've also pointed out contextual issues and was challenged to a debate.

Needless to say, the Christians here disagree with me.

But if the purpose of prophecy is not to establish that a prophet speaks for God, then what is the purpose? The only answer I've ever seen is that prophecy is there to establish divine foreknowledge, presumably with the goal of saving souls.

But then the obvious question is, "Why aren't these prophecies more convincing?" Why is it so important that these prophecies are delivered in the form of a riddle or poem when simply stating them plainly might save more souls? Even the demons are shown irrefutable proof. Are we lower than the demons?

The vast majority of all people who have ever or will ever read Biblical prophecy are not reading it in the original language. Any kind of rhyme, cultural reference, or artistic writing style is simply lost to time. All that remains is the substance of the prophecy, needlessly cluttered in a clumsy delivery. Why? Why not merely state in plain terms what will happen and when?

Is the purpose of prophecy to establish the superiority of the Bible over all other religious texts? If so, why would God allow so many contradictions in the Bible?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Are we lower than the demons?

The demons do not have nay any chance at all to experience mercy, grace or salvation.
They are doomed eternally forever, and they know this, and they know Jesus, and they shudder in terror continually for this - their judgment is soon, and they know they cannot escape.

 

[Resha Caner]

In a previous thread I established my case on prophecy.

Spoiler

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 says,

15 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken?

22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It seems that a common misunderstanding about prophecy is that it is a display of God's power, and nothing more. That God makes a prediction, it comes true, and then... nothing happens because we're done here. This is not the case. The purpose of a prophecy is to show that the prophet actually does speak for God. If a prophet makes a prediction that comes true, then, as Deuteronomy 18 says, that prophet speaks for God. That prophet then goes on to do his actual work, which is relaying God's will to the people.

As for the main point of the thread, first notice that if a prophet's prediction does not come to pass, then he is a false prophet (verses 21-22). Notice also that false prophets shall be executed (verse 20).

No concept of a far-future prophecy is covered. If a prophet made a prediction that didn't come true within 500 years, he would have been considered a false prophet. Plain and simple.

So considering that there were 500 years between the last Old Testament writing and the birth of Jesus, and considering the very high cost of actually producing a book back in these ancient times, the probability that scholars would write down the words of a false prophet in a book and then copy it multiple times and preserve it for centuries is basically 0%.

Therefore, a clear, unambiguous prophecy that is 100% about Jesus and 0% about anything else simply does not exist. No such prophecy was ever intended. It's gospel writers taking the Old Testament out of context that have created a mess.

I've also pointed out contextual issues and was challenged to a debate.

Needless to say, the Christians here disagree with me.

But if the purpose of prophecy is not to establish that a prophet speaks for God, then what is the purpose? The only answer I've ever seen is that prophecy is there to establish divine foreknowledge, presumably with the goal of saving souls.

But then the obvious question is, "Why aren't these prophecies more convincing?" Why is it so important that these prophecies are delivered in the form of a riddle or poem when simply stating them plainly might save more souls? Even the demons are shown irrefutable proof. Are we lower than the demons?

The vast majority of all people who have ever or will ever read Biblical prophecy are not reading it in the original language. Any kind of rhyme, cultural reference, or artistic writing style is simply lost to time. All that remains is the substance of the prophecy, needlessly cluttered in a clumsy delivery. Why? Why not merely state in plain terms what will happen and when?

Is the purpose of prophecy to establish the superiority of the Bible over all other religious texts? If so, why would God allow so many contradictions in the Bible?

You use the word prophecy differently than me. It seems you use it merely as a synonym for "prediction". In order to avoid your comments being a strawman, I would proceed with that understanding. The question would then be, "What is the purpose of Biblical predictions?"

The best I can answer in a general sense is to say the purpose is to influence those who hear it. Anything else would need to be more specific to the prediction in question.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In a previous thread I established my case on prophecy.

Spoiler

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 says,

15 Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 according to all that thou desiredst of Jehovah thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thy heart, How shall we know the word which Jehovah hath not spoken?

22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which Jehovah hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.

It seems that a common misunderstanding about prophecy is that it is a display of God's power, and nothing more. That God makes a prediction, it comes true, and then... nothing happens because we're done here. This is not the case. The purpose of a prophecy is to show that the prophet actually does speak for God. If a prophet makes a prediction that comes true, then, as Deuteronomy 18 says, that prophet speaks for God. That prophet then goes on to do his actual work, which is relaying God's will to the people.

As for the main point of the thread, first notice that if a prophet's prediction does not come to pass, then he is a false prophet (verses 21-22). Notice also that false prophets shall be executed (verse 20).

No concept of a far-future prophecy is covered. If a prophet made a prediction that didn't come true within 500 years, he would have been considered a false prophet. Plain and simple.

So considering that there were 500 years between the last Old Testament writing and the birth of Jesus, and considering the very high cost of actually producing a book back in these ancient times, the probability that scholars would write down the words of a false prophet in a book and then copy it multiple times and preserve it for centuries is basically 0%.

Therefore, a clear, unambiguous prophecy that is 100% about Jesus and 0% about anything else simply does not exist. No such prophecy was ever intended. It's gospel writers taking the Old Testament out of context that have created a mess.

I've also pointed out contextual issues and was challenged to a debate.

Needless to say, the Christians here disagree with me.

But if the purpose of prophecy is not to establish that a prophet speaks for God, then what is the purpose? The only answer I've ever seen is that prophecy is there to establish divine foreknowledge, presumably with the goal of saving souls.

But then the obvious question is, "Why aren't these prophecies more convincing?" Why is it so important that these prophecies are delivered in the form of a riddle or poem when simply stating them plainly might save more souls? Even the demons are shown irrefutable proof. Are we lower than the demons?

The vast majority of all people who have ever or will ever read Biblical prophecy are not reading it in the original language. Any kind of rhyme, cultural reference, or artistic writing style is simply lost to time. All that remains is the substance of the prophecy, needlessly cluttered in a clumsy delivery. Why? Why not merely state in plain terms what will happen and when?

Is the purpose of prophecy to establish the superiority of the Bible over all other religious texts? If so, why would God allow so many contradictions in the Bible?

I'm going to read your post in reverse fashion and assert here that I agree with Pascal when he says:

Contradiction is a poor indication of truth.
Many things that are certain are contradicted.
Many that are false pass without contradiction.
Contradiction is no more an indication of falsehood than lack of it is an indication of truth. (384)
​

He also said, and where the structure of the Biblical faith applies, I think it very true:

Two excesses: to exclude reason, to admit nothing but reason. (272)​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As written in God's Word: man's wisdom and knowledge (and reason) lead men to worship/serve/ the creation instead of worshiping the Creator.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You use the word prophecy differently than me. It seems you use it merely as a synonym for "prediction". In order to avoid your comments being a strawman, I would proceed with that understanding. The question would then be, "What is the purpose of Biblical predictions?"

The best I can answer in a general sense is to say the purpose is to influence those who hear it. Anything else would need to be more specific to the prediction in question.

If it's not a prediction, whom is that going to influence? Nothing in the Bible has made me fall to my knees and weep, basking in the profound beauty of the words. Though it seems that has been the attempt on occasion.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I'm going to read your post in reverse fashion and assert here that I agree with Pascal when he says:

Contradiction is a poor indication of truth.
Many things that are certain are contradicted.
Many that are false pass without contradiction.
Contradiction is no more an indication of falsehood than lack of it is an indication of truth. (384)
​

He also said, and where the structure of the Biblical faith applies, I think it very true:

Two excesses: to exclude reason, to admit nothing but reason. (272)​

So you do not hold the law of non contradiction as an axiom?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If it's not a prediction, whom is that going to influence? Nothing in the Bible has made me fall to my knees and weep, basking in the profound beauty of the words. Though it seems that has been the attempt on occasion.

That comes later.
Not from any beauty, per se.

 

[Resha Caner]

If it's not a prediction, whom is that going to influence? Nothing in the Bible has made me fall to my knees and weep, basking in the profound beauty of the words. Though it seems that has been the attempt on occasion.

The Bible influences a lot of people. Are you going to say it doesn't?

My statement was never directed specifically at you. So it doesn't mean anything to you. OK. Then why are you asking about it?

 

[hedrick]

The purpose of prophets in the OT was to proclaim God’s will. In many cases this included judgement by God, in the form of coming punishment. But the point wasn’t to predict. Indeed in most cases a reasonable person could have understood what was coming. The prophets explained how it fit God’s will.

There was a second type of prediction, that God would restore his people. In many cases this took the form of a vision of a future that seems not to have come yet in full, though Jesus carried out some aspects of some of these visions.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So you do not hold the law of non contradiction as an axiom?

It depends on the situation and the application. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The Bible influences a lot of people. Are you going to say it doesn't?

You seem to have forgotten the conversation. I'm specifically asking about prophecy, not about the Bible as a whole.

My statement was never directed specifically at you.

Yes it was. You've forgotten the conversation again. You used the quote function to quote me directly, and then you told me directly that I am using a different meaning for prophecy than you.

So it doesn't mean anything to you. OK. Then why are you asking about it?

I'll be happy to acquire my information elsewhere if you'd rather not participate.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It depends on the situation and the application. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't.

The Bible contains contradictions. I never knew this as a Christian since other Christians weren't very forthcoming about it. But eventually I realized that either God cannot or will not prevent the contradictions from being in there, and I couldn't find either one to be acceptable.

 

[Resha Caner]

You seem to have forgotten the conversation. I'm specifically asking about prophecy, not about the Bible as a whole.

You know what I meant. Playing dumb only means I have to repeat the question. Let's not do that. Prophecy influences a lot of people. Are you going to say it doesn't?

Yes it was.

If you want to ask for clarification, that's fair. But don't tell me what I meant. I know what I meant. I specifically stated I was giving my answer in the general sense.

I'll be happy to acquire my information elsewhere if you'd rather not participate.

I'm fine. I'll continue for as long as you want. If prophecy doesn't influence you, why do you ask about it? Is your curiosity confined to the specific question you asked? If so, I answered. Or is there more to it?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Bible contains contradictions. I never knew this as a Christian since other Christians weren't very forthcoming about it. But eventually I realized that either God cannot or will not prevent the contradictions from being in there, and I couldn't find either one to be acceptable.

I don't blame you if you feel that the presence of inconsistencies in the Bible are highly problematic to the development and the having of personal faith in Jesus. I guess that in my case, I began as a Christian with the presence of contradiction glaring me in the face since my reading of the Bible began with Genesis and I couldn't, and never could, and never have, reconciled the narrative account of Adam and Eve, or the first dozen or so chapters therein, with what I knew about Natural History. I always had the influences of Carl Sagan and Arthur C. Clarke, my early childhood interest in dinosaurs, and the fact that my dad had worked for NASA ... to prevent that.

What this did for me was to make me realize that if I was EVER to find it in myself to appropriate the Bible into my thinking, it wouldn't be by relying upon a merely straightforward, linear, ultra-logical, or comprehensive and coherent conceptual "fitting job."

There was that and the additional fact that as I began to wade into the murky waters of the New Testament and its prophetic iterations as a 'new Christian,' I immediately saw that some of the ways in which the Southern Baptist pastor at the church I began to attend at that time didn't quite interpret the Bible in ways I thought were always accurate, not the least of which was the way he handled a passage that he thought referred to some 'rapture' idea. Needless to say, even though I didn't know enough at the time to fully discern what the problem of his reading was, I still couldn't value his interpretation of the passage he cited as truly applicable or accurate.

I guess to some extent, my engagements with the Christian Faith have been different than yours. I faced what I perceived were (and often still are) Fundamentalist's errors, but I didn't feel like they were necessarily lying to me; no, I just thought they were wrong in their interpretations.

So, from these two experiences which I've had to face ever since I made my initial attempts to seriously take on the Christian Faith years ago, I came to realize that there may be more to handling the Bible than what either the Biblical writers themselves would tell me or that various Christians around me today would or could realize.

In reflection upon your OP inquiry, the final analysis we each have to make for ourselves about the Bible overall and the possible meanings it presents to us with its Eschatology and other Prophetic "statements," it will be a deeply entrenched Parabolic, Rorschach style exercise for each one of us.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You know what I meant. Playing dumb only means I have to repeat the question. Let's not do that.

I've allowed loose language to slide in the past in good faith only to see my interlocutor deliberately leverage that against me later. It's a predictable human behavior when attempting to salvage the losing side of a debate. I'd rather not afford you that from the outset.

Prophecy influences a lot of people. Are you going to say it doesn't?

Prophecy does influence people because they believe it is a display of divine foreknowledge. If you take away the prediction aspect then hardly anyone would find the passages to be of value.

If you want to ask for clarification, that's fair. But don't tell me what I meant. I know what I meant.

Fair enough. I don't know what you meant. I went off what you said and assumed you meant what you said.

I specifically stated I was giving my answer in the general sense.

Right. But you also said you weren't addressing me specifically. Which is false. You said that you and I have different definitions of prophecy.

I'm fine. I'll continue for as long as you want. If prophecy doesn't influence you, why do you ask about it? Is your curiosity confined to the specific question you asked? If so, I answered. Or is there more to it?

The underlying root issue is a thread you probably haven't seen. It's in the spoiler of the OP.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The purpose of prophets in the OT was to proclaim God’s will. In many cases this included judgement by God, in the form of coming punishment. But the point wasn’t to predict. Indeed in most cases a reasonable person could have understood what was coming. The prophets explained how it fit God’s will.

There was a second type of prediction, that God would restore his people. In many cases this took the form of a vision of a future that seems not to have come yet in full, though Jesus carried out some aspects of some of these visions.

Prospective prophets had to make successful predictions in order to be established as prophets. That is an important aspect of being a prophet. But you're correct that their main purpose was to then relay the will of God. This is what I said in the spoiler part of the OP, and I got nothing but pushback when I initially posted it (on a different thread). You are showered with likes due to the religion you represent. Seems like some ad hominem fallacies from the peanut gallery.

 

[Resha Caner]

Prophecy does influence people because they believe it is a display of divine foreknowledge. If you take away the prediction aspect then hardly anyone would find the passages to be of value.

A prophet is a spokesman for God. Quite a bit of prophecy is without prediction (judgements, instructions, explanations, encouragement, blessings …) and quite a few people listen to it. Just not you.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I don't blame you if you feel that the presence of inconsistencies in the Bible are highly problematic to the development and the having of personal faith in Jesus. I guess that in my case, I began as a Christian with the presence of contradiction glaring me in the face since my reading of the Bible began with Genesis and I couldn't, and never could, and never have, reconciled the narrative account of Adam and Eve, or the first dozen or so chapters therein, with what I knew about Natural History. I always had the influences of Carl Sagan and Arthur C. Clarke, my early childhood interest in dinosaurs, and the fact that my dad had worked for NASA ... to prevent that.

What this did for me was to make me realize that if I was EVER to find it in myself to appropriate the Bible into my thinking, it wouldn't be by relying upon a merely straightforward, linear, ultra-logical, or comprehensive and coherent conceptual "fitting job."

There was that and the additional fact that as I began to wade into the murky waters of the New Testament and its prophetic iterations as a 'new Christian,' I immediately saw that some of the ways in which the Southern Baptist pastor at the church I began to attend at that time didn't quite interpret the Bible in ways I thought were always accurate, not the least of which was the way he handled a passage that he thought referred to some 'rapture' idea. Needless to say, even though I didn't know enough at the time to fully discern what the problem of his reading was, I still couldn't value his interpretation of the passage he cited as truly applicable or accurate.

I guess to some extent, my engagements with the Christian Faith have been different than yours. I faced what I perceived were (and often still are) Fundamentalist's errors, but I didn't feel like they were necessarily lying to me; no, I just thought they were wrong in their interpretations.

So, from these two experiences which I've had to face ever since I made my initial attempts to seriously take on the Christian Faith years ago, I came to realize that there may be more to handling the Bible than what either the Biblical writers themselves would tell me or that various Christians around me today would or could realize.

In reflection upon your OP inquiry, the final analysis we each have to make for ourselves about the Bible overall and the possible meanings it presents to us with its Eschatology and other Prophetic "statements," it will be a deeply entrenched Parabolic, Rorschach style exercise for each one of us.

You mentioned that you believe the fundamentalists are in error and are not lying. But just recall to mind that video you posted of the rich apologist being grilled before boarding his private plane. It's conceivable that he is lying in order to keep the money flowing in. I mean, if you have been doing this your whole life then your resume is basically blank. You have to decide, "Am I going to clean toilets at Walmart or am I going to keep lying for money?" Because if one of those guys even suggests he has a small inkling of doubt, the money will dry up. He has to lie.

Now of course, I only said it's conceivable that he's lying. But it's inconceivable that none of them are lying.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

A prophet is a spokesman for God. Quite a bit of prophecy is without prediction (judgements, instructions, explanations, encouragement, blessings …) and quite a few people listen to it. Just not you.

Not everything a prophet says is prophetic. Prediction of the future is the prophetic part. Once he is established as a prophet by correctly predicting the future, he then issues statements from God. Those are not prophecy.