The purpose of God according to election...

[orbiter]

Peace in Christ.

God will have mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens those whom He hardens. The purpose of God according to election stands.

This is His sovereign will that has determined both groups of Christians (the Esau group…the vessels made to display His wrath and the Jacob group…the vessels of His mercy that is appointed before to display His glory).

Rom 9:11-16 KJV
(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
(12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This applies to both Christian believers of the Jews and the gentiles.

The Esau group of Christians is what we have witnessed so far in the past Christian history.

They have been the “vessels of wrath” that were fitted to destruction. He has endured with much LONGSUFFERING with them. It has been a while now. They are the “MANY” who have gone down the broad way to the destruction of their mortal flesh. They perish mortally. He has chosen them to show His wrath....and to make known His power.

Rom 9:21-24 KJV
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God has done this (per His sovereign will) so that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He has before (we were born) determined that we are to be His vessels prepared for His appearing glory. The Esau group did not obtain His glory.

(23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We can’t find fault with God for determining these things. We can’t say to Him “why has you made me thus?”

Rom 9:19-21 KJV
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Interestingly, Rebecca asks this very thing…. “if it be so, why am I thus?” If it is God’s will, why did He make me this way?

Gen 25:22-23 KJV
(22) And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

For out of one lump the Potter makes one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor.

There are 2 manners of people. There are 2 groups of Christians. The MANY first Christians are of the Esau group…and the FEW Christians of the Jacob group.

The “elder”…that is, the MANY shall serve the “younger”…that is, the FEW.

(23) And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

The Christian vessels of His wrath were born that way.

The FIRST came out “red”….indicating they were born for displaying God's wrath. Esau came out red “all over like a hairy garment” Hairy garment (Hebrew śê‛âr and 'addereth) : = wide or large storm…which indicates God’s wrath over a large group of people.

The name “Esau” means “rough handling” as God made them for dishonor for the displaying of His wrath. He has handled them in His roughness.

Gen 25:25 KJV
(25) And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.

The MANY first (the Esau group…the Christian vessels of His wrath fitted for destruction) shall be last in the resurrection while the LAST (the Jacob group…the Christian vessels of His mercy fitted for His glory) shall be FIRST in the resurrection (the first resurrection).

Mar 10:31 KJV
(31) But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

The many are called (Esau group of Christians) but the FEW are chosen (the Jacob group of Christians.) for obtaining an age-lasting life (the birthright) and His glory (the blessings).

Mat 20:16 KJV
(16) So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

The first group of the many Christians shall be LAST in the resurrection. They mortally perish under His wrath. They were sown in dishonor (as God made them that way …for dishonor) but shall be raised in glory AT the last day of this age. The FIRST shall be LAST in the resurrection.

1Co 15:42-43 KJV
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

But the LAST group (the vessels of His mercy) shall be in the FIRST resurrection....which is NOW in our mortal bodies (the "tent"). Jacob was a "plain man"...that is, complete. His faith is made complete. He "dwelt in tents"...that is, we shall continue to dwell in the "tent" of our earthly, mortal bodies for the duration of this age.

Gen 25:27 KJV
(27) And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.

 

[Dan Perez]

Peace in Christ.

God will have mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens those whom He hardens. The purpose of God according to election stands.

This is His sovereign will that has determined both groups of Christians (the Esau group…the vessels made to display His wrath and the Jacob group…the vessels of His mercy that is appointed before to display His glory).

Rom 9:11-16 KJV
(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
(12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
(13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
(14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This applies to both Christian believers of the Jews and the gentiles.

The Esau group of Christians is what we have witnessed so far in the past Christian history.

They have been the “vessels of wrath” that were fitted to destruction. He has endured with much LONGSUFFERING with them. It has been a while now. They are the “MANY” who have gone down the broad way to the destruction of their mortal flesh. They perish mortally. He has chosen them to show His wrath....and to make known His power.

Rom 9:21-24 KJV
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God has done this (per His sovereign will) so that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He has before (we were born) determined that we are to be His vessels prepared for His appearing glory. The Esau group did not obtain His glory.

(23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
(24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We can’t find fault with God for determining these things. We can’t say to Him “why has you made me thus?”

Rom 9:19-21 KJV
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Interestingly, Rebecca asks this very thing…. “if it be so, why am I thus?” If it is God’s will, why did He make me this way?

Gen 25:22-23 KJV
(22) And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

For out of one lump the Potter makes one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor.

There are 2 manners of people. There are 2 groups of Christians. The MANY first Christians are of the Esau group…and the FEW Christians of the Jacob group.

The “elder”…that is, the MANY shall serve the “younger”…that is, the FEW.

(23) And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

The Christian vessels of His wrath were born that way.

The FIRST came out “red”….indicating they were born for displaying God's wrath. Esau came out red “all over like a hairy garment” Hairy garment (Hebrew śê‛âr and 'addereth) : = wide or large storm…which indicates God’s wrath over a large group of people.

The name “Esau” means “rough handling” as God made them for dishonor for the displaying of His wrath. He has handled them in His roughness.

Gen 25:25 KJV
(25) And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.

The MANY first (the Esau group…the Christian vessels of His wrath fitted for destruction) shall be last in the resurrection while the LAST (the Jacob group…the Christian vessels of His mercy fitted for His glory) shall be FIRST in the resurrection (the first resurrection).

Mar 10:31 KJV
(31) But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

The many are called (Esau group of Christians) but the FEW are chosen (the Jacob group of Christians.) for obtaining an age-lasting life (the birthright) and His glory (the blessings).

Mat 20:16 KJV
(16) So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

The first group of the many Christians shall be LAST in the resurrection. They mortally perish under His wrath. They were sown in dishonor (as God made them that way …for dishonor) but shall be raised in glory AT the last day of this age. The FIRST shall be LAST in the resurrection.

1Co 15:42-43 KJV
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

But the LAST group (the vessels of His mercy) shall be in the FIRST resurrection....which is NOW in our mortal bodies (the "tent"). Jacob was a "plain man"...that is, complete. His faith is made complete. He "dwelt in tents"...that is, we shall continue to dwell in the "tent" of our earthly, mortal bodies for the duration of this age.

Gen 25:27 KJV
(27) And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.

Just asking where you say , that there are a group of Christian's from Esau ?

Are you saying that there were Christians during that time period ??

dan p

 

[timf]

It might be more clear to ask if election is the choice of an individual by God or the establishment of a category that an individual can choose/

 

[David Lamb]

It might be more clear to ask if election is the choice of an individual by God or the establishment of a category that an individual can choose/

If that were the question, I would have to answer "individuals". Try applying the words of this passage to "the establishment of a category that an individual can choose":

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph 1:3-7 NKJV)

Those words " In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins" are speaking of the same people as the words, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."

 

[timf]

I mow everyone is either Calvinist or succumbs to pressure from Calvinists, so I am swimming up stream. However, in the verses you cite I think I can see a less Calvinistic interpretation. For example the word "in" as a translation of the Greek "en" in the phrase "in him" in verse four I think might be better translated as "through". This seems to fit the context better as it is the agency of Jesus that is being described.

The process of trusting in Jesus is being described the conclusion of which results in us being "accepted". If we were individually chosen before the foundation of the world, we would have already been "accepted".

I still see the "choosing" and "election" as the plan to provide a way (through Jesus) that one could be saved outside of the ministry of Israel should Israel have failed to received the offered kingdom. We can be called "elect" and "chosen" because we ourselves chose to take advantage of what has been offered. such that we stand in a condition that was decided by God.

 

[David Lamb]

I mow everyone is either Calvinist or succumbs to pressure from Calvinists, so I am swimming up stream. However, in the verses you cite I think I can see a less Calvinistic interpretation. For example the word "in" as a translation of the Greek "en" in the phrase "in him" in verse four I think might be better translated as "through". This seems to fit the context better as it is the agency of Jesus that is being described.

The process of trusting in Jesus is being described the conclusion of which results in us being "accepted". If we were individually chosen before the foundation of the world, we would have already been "accepted".

I still see the "choosing" and "election" as the plan to provide a way (through Jesus) that one could be saved outside of the ministry of Israel should Israel have failed to received the offered kingdom. We can be called "elect" and "chosen" because we ourselves chose to take advantage of what has been offered. such that we stand in a condition that was decided by God.

Whether in or through Christ, how can the statement that God chose people before the foundation of the world possibly refer to a "plan to provide a way (through Jesus) that one could be saved outside of the ministry of Israel"? How is that God's choosing people?

 

[timf]

God chose a mechanism whereby people could be saved. Therefore we can be called chosen because we are in that group of people.

 

[David Lamb]

God chose a mechanism whereby people could be saved. Therefore we can be called chosen because we are in that group of people.

Not according to the bible:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,” (Eph 1:3-4 NKJV)

Paul writes to the Ephesian Christians that God chose "us", not a mechanism. This verse from Romans likewise is not about a mechanism:

“Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Ro 8:30 NKJV)

 

[timf]

if one looks at "elect" as individually chosen of God, and removes the contribution of free will, the responsibility for the evil done by both angels and humans begins to return to God. One might ask if there is no hope for an individual (human or angel) unless they are specifically chosen by God, how can they be judged for that over which they had no control.