• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Purpose Driven Life

BelovedSonofRock

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2005
38
3
64
Minneapolis, MN
✟22,674.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
humblemuslim said:
Life need not have any univseral purpose (However some have religious beliefs as to one).

Yet life has a purpose for each individual person and that is to achieve their personal goals.
I'm still bending my mind around this. My understanding is this...

Life doesn't need a purpose.
However, Life has a purpose for each individual.

Are you saying?... The purpose for each individual comes from Life; it does not come from Allah.
 
Upvote 0

BelovedSonofRock

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2005
38
3
64
Minneapolis, MN
✟22,674.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
somasoma77 said:
I am a Christian, but I see Sunday Christians who are Christian for an hour as an insurance policy to heaven. The rest of the time they are condemning their brothers to hell or drinking themselves into purgatory.
What does this have to do with the question? The question is...Why does life have to have a purpose?
 
Upvote 0

somasoma77

Active Member
Aug 18, 2004
162
23
✟418.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
In the beginning of the book the author writes for two pages that his book is not a self-help book. It is a self help book. Why does he say that? It is because fundamental Christians are against self-help or just helping others in general. Look at our Nation cutting funds for the poor and rewarding the rich.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
somasoma77 said:
It is because fundamental Christians are against self-help or just helping others in general.

This is false. You are falling for political smear tactics.

Fundamentalist Christians aren't against helping others. They simply prefer to do so through private charities rather than government.

They aren't against self-help either. If they are skeptical of self-help books, it is because they are skeptical of psychology as a means to self-improvement, since they believe that Christ offers the only sure means of such improvement.
 
Upvote 0

humblemuslim

I am busy currently. Will be less active soon.
Mar 25, 2005
3,812
111
39
USA
✟27,028.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm still bending my mind around this. My understanding is this...

Life doesn't need a purpose.
However, Life has a purpose for each individual.

Are you saying?... The purpose for each individual comes from Life; it does not come from Allah.

Hello BelovedSonofRock,

This is one answer that doesn't have roots in religion. As I briefly stated, religions do propose "Universal meaning" to life. For instance, Islam proposes Humanity and Jinn were created to worship/serve God, which is shown in the following verse:

051.056YUSUFALI: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
PICKTHAL: I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
SHAKIR: And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.




All I was pointing out is life doesn't necessarily have to have a purpose rooted in religion.


Peace
 
Upvote 0

somasoma77

Active Member
Aug 18, 2004
162
23
✟418.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
[font=Times,Times New Roman]A good and just society must care for the needy. A civil society takes care of the weak and elderly. Fundamental Christian Americans want to dismantle not reform, welfare, education, medical assistance and other relief programs. These social institutions once served America so well. until the right Republicans representing the Chritian right started dismantling them. They support corporate welfare though. If this is the purpose driven life of a fundamental Christian I don't want a purpose. I do want to help the needy like Jesus and his true followers.

[/font]Being a Christian fundamentalist is about having a dysfunctional relationship with their own bodies, minds, emotions, and spirits. They are dysfunctional with their own gender and sexuality and therefore, being human. Because they have dysfunctional relationships internally, they have dysfunctional relationships externally and with Christ. They are against self help because it will expose their fake relationships with Jesus and God. The author of the book " A Purpose Driven Life" lied about his book not being self help because he wants to help and correct this situation. It is amazing how one has to disguise a book to help others so it is not condemned. Fundamentlist are good at condemning books that they have not read.

[size=+0]Our traditional Christian cultural concept of what a man is, of what a woman is, have become twisted, distorted, almost comically bloated with stereotypes of what a man, a woman and a Christian really are.

The purpose of our Christian family on the right is to talk about the crises facing the truth. Sermon after sermon condemn people to hell for having a different purpose.

A good purpose for all Christians is to be tolerant and form an inclusive church not an exclusive club for intellerant people.
[/size]
[font=Times,Times New Roman]

[/font]
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
somasoma77 said:
[font=Times,Times New Roman]A good and just society must care for the needy. A civil society takes care of the weak and elderly. Fundamental Christian Americans want to dismantle not reform, welfare, education, medical assistance and other relief programs.
[/font]

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean they don't care about the needy. And Jesus never said "tax people to support social welfare programs."
 
Upvote 0

BelovedSonofRock

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2005
38
3
64
Minneapolis, MN
✟22,674.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
humblemuslim said:
Hello BelovedSonofRock,

This is one answer that doesn't have roots in religion. As I briefly stated, religions do propose "Universal meaning" to life. For instance, Islam proposes Humanity and Jinn were created to worship/serve God, which is shown in the following verse:

051.056YUSUFALI: I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
PICKTHAL: I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
SHAKIR: And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me.


All I was pointing out is life doesn't necessarily have to have a purpose rooted in religion.

Peace
The question I asked was why does life need a purpose. Perhaps I asked an unanswerable question.

You gave a what the purpose is...that we were created to worship God. Like a fish I'm going to bite on this hook.

Why would God want or need us to worship Him? God is suppose to be perfect and complete. Is God lacking something that He needed to create us to worship Him? What does He get from our worship?

Though I'm very interested in hearing the Muslim veiw on this other theists can also share their views.
 
  • Like
Reactions: humblemuslim
Upvote 0

BelovedSonofRock

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2005
38
3
64
Minneapolis, MN
✟22,674.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
somasoma77 said:
[font=Times,Times New Roman]A good and just society must care for the needy. A civil society takes care of the weak and elderly. Fundamental Christian Americans want to dismantle not reform, welfare, education, medical assistance and other relief programs. These social institutions once served America so well. until the right Republicans representing the Chritian right started dismantling them. They support corporate welfare though. If this is the purpose driven life of a fundamental Christian I don't want a purpose. I do want to help the needy like Jesus and his true followers.

[/font]Being a Christian fundamentalist is about having a dysfunctional relationship with their own bodies, minds, emotions, and spirits. They are dysfunctional with their own gender and sexuality and therefore, being human. Because they have dysfunctional relationships internally, they have dysfunctional relationships externally and with Christ. They are against self help because it will expose their fake relationships with Jesus and God. The author of the book " A Purpose Driven Life" lied about his book not being self help because he wants to help and correct this situation. It is amazing how one has to disguise a book to help others so it is not condemned. Fundamentlist are good at condemning books that they have not read.

[size=+0]Our traditional Christian cultural concept of what a man is, of what a woman is, have become twisted, distorted, almost comically bloated with stereotypes of what a man, a woman and a Christian really are.

The purpose of our Christian family on the right is to talk about the crises facing the truth. Sermon after sermon condemn people to hell for having a different purpose.

A good purpose for all Christians is to be tolerant and form an inclusive church not an exclusive club for intellerant people.
[/size]
I think you are over-villanizing the fundamentalists and glossifiy the liberals too much. Yes, there are some very vocal fundamentalist and conservatives working to end those programs. Yet, how well those programs served the public is debateable.
 
Upvote 0

humblemuslim

I am busy currently. Will be less active soon.
Mar 25, 2005
3,812
111
39
USA
✟27,028.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
The question I asked was why does life need a purpose. Perhaps I asked an unanswerable question.

Possibly. If you think about it life doesn't need a purpose, but each and every person gives it purpose by creating and fulfilling goals. So from a fundamental sense each and every person creates their own purpose. But another question would be whether life has a purpose common to all outside personal goals. This is where proof is going to be lacking and religion steps in to give answers to questions which cannot be sufficently proven to date.

You gave a what the purpose is...that we were created to worship God. Like a fish I'm going to bite on this hook.

Why would God want or need us to worship Him? God is suppose to be perfect and complete. Is God lacking something that He needed to create us to worship Him? What does He get from our worship?

Though I'm very interested in hearing the Muslim veiw on this other theists can also share their views.

The best I can do to respond to your questions may not be satisfactory, but I'll attempt my best none-the-less.

First of all, yes God is supposed to be perfect/complete and doesn't need us as shown in the following verses:

051.057
YUSUFALI: No Sustenance do I require of them, nor do I require that they should feed Me.
PICKTHAL: I seek no livelihood from them, nor do I ask that they should feed Me.
SHAKIR: I do not desire from them any sustenance and I do not desire that they should feed Me.


"Them" is referring to Jinn and Humankind as noted in the verse before this one, which I already cited in an earlier post.

051.058
YUSUFALI: For Allah is He Who gives (all) Sustenance,- Lord of Power,- Steadfast (for ever).
PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah! He it is that giveth livelihood, the Lord of unbreakable might.
SHAKIR: Surely Allah is the Bestower of sustenance, the Lord of Power, the Strong.



002.255YUSUFALI: Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).


Since this verse is somewhat larger than the others I'll just cite one translation. If you wish to view others here is a link to the verse in 3 translations: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.255


One of your questions is:

Is God lacking something that He needed to create us to worship Him?


Well from an Islamic point of view, No. However if you don't hold the Islamic point of view to be true, then it is possible to come to the conclusion that God isn't perfect and is lacking in some sense.


Your other two questions are very similar so I'll respond to them together:

Why would God want or need us to worship Him? What does He get from our worship?

These two questions are somewhat hard to answer, since God didn't exactly spell out the answers. At least not directly. First of all, Islam holds that God doesn't NEED us, therefore God doesn't NEED worship from us. However, Islam also holds God WANTS us to worship him, that's the universal purpose of life as cited by the Qur'an. So it is natural to wonder why God would demand something God doesn't need. Well one natural response would be the following:

What if humans need worship? Is it not possible worship isn't for God, but for humans instead? Just a thought. Maybe worship is in some way healthy for our being or simply good for us. This response came to me because of the following verse (There are other similar verses):

003.108YUSUFALI: These are the Signs of Allah: We rehearse them to thee in Truth: And Allah means no injustice to any of His creatures.
PICKTHAL: These are revelations of Allah. We recite them unto thee in truth. Allah willeth no injustice to (His) creatures.
SHAKIR: These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth, and Allah does not desire any injustice to the creatures.



God wants what is best for us, good for us.


Beyond that I can currently think of no other response that would allow me to conclude God is perfect/complete/self-sufficent and yet demanding of worship.

Obviously my response isn't meant to convience non-believers that it is the truth, but to only show a possible train-of-thought which would allow the belief that Islam holds to not be logically contradictory.


If you have any more questions I'd be glad to respond to them as best I can.:thumbsup:

Thanks

Peace
 
Upvote 0

humblemuslim

I am busy currently. Will be less active soon.
Mar 25, 2005
3,812
111
39
USA
✟27,028.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
By the way,

In continuation of my last post, I realized another couple of questions which might be asked. Why would God make worship good for us? And why worship of God? Well, in short I currently don't have any response to these as of yet, and might never. Possibly more unanswerable questions.

Peace
 
Upvote 0

Marz Blak

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2002
891
48
62
New Jersey
Visit site
✟16,453.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
BelovedSonofRock said:
I feel you're being unfair toward Christians. Most humans want an easy fix, a simple answer. That is why people of all cultures and religions fall for false cures and false information.

I agree with this statement. I don't see how Christians differ substantively from adherents to other belief systems in terms of having easy answers.
 
Upvote 0

BelovedSonofRock

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2005
38
3
64
Minneapolis, MN
✟22,674.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Marz Blak said:
I agree with this statement. I don't see how Christians differ substantively from adherents to other belief systems in terms of having easy answers.
I talking about more than just belief systems. Many people just want the easy fix for nearly everything: getting rich, solving global warming, the Middle East, poverty, why did New Orleans have to suffer, hunger, loosing weight.

This is more than about belief systems; this is about human nature. Choosing the hard over the easy. Overcoming our laziness.
 
Upvote 0

BelovedSonofRock

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2005
38
3
64
Minneapolis, MN
✟22,674.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
After looking at the comments in this forum and other sites, the answer that I have come up with on why life should have a purpose is this:
Life doesn't have a purpose. Life is just is. People who look for a purpose for life, a cosmic purpose, and discover that life doesn't have a purpose often dispair.

If a person is going to look for a cosmic purpose for life, he/she should first answer: Why does life have to have a purpose?" Which forces one to look at the self and then truthfully ask "Why do I need to have life have a cosmic purpose?" and "Why do I need a purpose for my life?" Then they will discover how self-centered the questions are.

This leads to "What am I going to do with my life?"
 
Upvote 0

FreezBee

Veteran
Nov 1, 2005
1,306
44
Southern Copenhagen
✟1,704.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
BelovedSonofRock said:
The question I asked was why does life need a purpose. Perhaps I asked an unanswerable question.

.... STUFF DELETED ....

Though I'm very interested in hearing the Muslim veiw on this other theists can also share their views.
What do you mean by purpose? As long as you haven't defined that, the question is unanswerable.

Of course, life does not need a purpose. Even assuming God created humans with a purpose, life still does not need a purpose.

So, please state your definition of purpose, and what you mean by life needing a purpose.


- FreezBee
 
Upvote 0

BelovedSonofRock

Junior Member
Oct 8, 2005
38
3
64
Minneapolis, MN
✟22,674.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
FreezBee said:
What do you mean by purpose? As long as you haven't defined that, the question is unanswerable.

Of course, life does not need a purpose. Even assuming God created humans with a purpose, life still does not need a purpose.

So, please state your definition of purpose, and what you mean by life needing a purpose.


- FreezBee
That's an interesting question; how would you define purpose?
FreezBee said:
Of course, life does not need a purpose. Even assuming God created humans with a purpose, life still does not need a purpose.
This would be a contradictory statement. If God created humans with a purpose then life has a purpose. The answer would then be "Life has purpose because God gave it a purpose."

Well, if that is the answer then one could move on to:


  • What is the purpose of life?
  • How can one know what is the purpose of life?
  • What is the general/universal purpose for human life?
  • What is an individual person's purpose of life?
  • How can one know what are the general and personal purposes of human life?
  • How can one know if they are doing their personal purpose?
  • What happens if one is not doing their personal purpose?
  • Does one even have a choice of doing or not doing the general and/or personal purpose of life?
Of course, one could be stubborn and ask, "Why did God give life a purpose?"
 
Upvote 0