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The protestant Churches

mark46

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WSith regard to Anglicans, we will having different answers Depending on who is posting; we seem to be discussing:

1) What many Angicans believe OR

2) What most Anglicans believe OR

3) What the Church believes and affirms OR

4) What the Communion as Church believes and affirms OR

5) What some individual local churches or individuals believe OR

6) A consensus on what the minmal set of beliefs might be to be called Anglican (beyond a sign in front of the local church)
 
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MKJ

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It doesn't change the fact that these are requisits found within either the 39 Articles or the Chicago-Lambeth quadralateral.

While certain members may deviate, the church officially still holds to.


How meaningful is that when multiple parishes actually teach these ways of thinking, with not a peep from their primates or anyone else?

The Articles are not exactly binding either, but it is interesting you should mention them, because I don't think they could be read as anything other than Protestant - that is, the product of Protestant theology.

Now, I think Anglicanism also is meant to be catholic, and I'd personally like to see it lose some of its Protestant aspects, but I can't see denying it as a product of the Reformation - no church that affirms sola fide could IMO.
 
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mark46

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This seems a strange discussion.

Obviously, there are many dioceses and provinces where the 39 Articles are not mentioned at all.

I agree with you with regard to wanting Anglicans to be less Protestant and more catholic.

However, we are Porotestant, as the 39 Articles show. Personally, I am with Wesley. I would delete the Article on predestination.

It is clear that the Church as a whole does not teach what the other poster suggested. For example, we have TWO sacraments, as the Articles state.

XXV. Of the Sacraments.
Sacraments ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses, and effectual signs of grace, and God's good will towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm our Faith in him.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures, but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, they have a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.

[/FONT]

How meaningful is that when multiple parishes actually teach these ways of thinking, with not a peep from their primates or anyone else?

The Articles are not exactly binding either, but it is interesting you should mention them, because I don't think they could be read as anything other than Protestant - that is, the product of Protestant theology.

Now, I think Anglicanism also is meant to be catholic, and I'd personally like to see it lose some of its Protestant aspects, but I can't see denying it as a product of the Reformation - no church that affirms sola fide could IMO.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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This seems a strange discussion.

Obviously, there are many dioceses and provinces where the 39 Articles are not mentioned at all.

I agree with you with regard to wanting Anglicans to be less Protestant and more catholic.

However, we are Porotestant, as the 39 Articles show. Personally, I am with Wesley. I would delete the Article on predestination.

It is clear that the Church as a whole does not teach what the other poster suggested. For example, we have TWO sacraments, as the Articles state.

XXV. Of the Sacraments.
Sacraments ordained of Christ be not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they be certain sure witnesses, and effectual signs of grace, and God's good will towards us, by the which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm our Faith in him.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures, but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, they have a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves damnation, as Saint Paul saith.[/FONT]

:thumbsup:

Forgive me...
 
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Aibrean

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I don't think there is very much variation in beliefs in the Protestant church, at least among Christians who really believe the Bible... which is few.

That drew up a very big LOL for me. Check out the views of Luther verses Zwingli.
 
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hedrick

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That drew up a very big LOL for me. Check out the views of Luther verses Zwingli.

I didn't say no differences. But in any sane Church, differences in our theory about how Christ is present in communion wouldn't be seen as a big deal, as long as we acknowledge that he's really there. My understanding is that Zwingli did, despite the popular impression.

Protestants differ on lots of things, but if you look at Church history I think you'll see that most of those disagreements are not more serious than disagreements that occurred within the Church up to the 16th Cent. Starting in the 16th Cent both sides took the conflict as an occasion to significantly narrow the acceptable degree of doctrinal variation. If you take your priorities from the NT, I think this was a mistake. An example is Lutheran / Reformed relationships. We are really pretty close cousins. And today I think most of us will acknowledge these as variants of a single Reformation tradition. But for institutional reasons, during the 16th and 17th Cent, Lutherans and Reformed tended to emphasize their differences.
 
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Aibrean

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Luther to Zwingli.

<--Christ is present, physically and spiritually-------------to----------------Christ is not present at all - it's symbolic-->

Quite a polar opposite. And yes, it is quite a big deal. One is a sacrament, and the other is not.
 
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mark46

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I think that there are three issues that are critical to the fabric of the various churches.

REAL PRESENCE
I agree that HOW Jesus is present in the Eucharist needn't be a Church-splitting issue. However, no matter what Zwingli personally believed, there are hundreds of millions today whose understanding is of the "real absence" of Jesus at the Lord's Table. These folks do not view communion as a sacrament and do not view that Jesus comes to the feast, in body or in Spirit.

DOUBLE PREDESTINATION AND FREE WILL
Personally, I think that this issue is more than a fight among cousins. But the ECLA and Presbyterian CHurch in the US seem to disagree. Theya re in full communion with each other

VISIBLE CHURCH
Personally, I think that it is ideed important whether we believe in a visible Church or not. Are we one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church? For some, interpretations of the bible by individuals is the best understanding of doctrine. Confessional Lutherans must find this strange. Are we one Church divided, with sacraments or are we 10,000 or more church bodies each with their own ideas of Scripture? Does the Tradition of the Church matter (including the Reformation fathers)?


I didn't say no differences. But in any sane Church, differences in our theory about how Christ is present in communion wouldn't be seen as a big deal, as long as we acknowledge that he's really there. My understanding is that Zwingli did, despite the popular impression.

Protestants differ on lots of things, but if you look at Church history I think you'll see that most of those disagreements are not more serious than disagreements that occurred within the Church up to the 16th Cent. Starting in the 16th Cent both sides took the conflict as an occasion to significantly narrow the acceptable degree of doctrinal variation. If you take your priorities from the NT, I think this was a mistake. An example is Lutheran / Reformed relationships. We are really pretty close cousins. And today I think most of us will acknowledge these as variants of a single Reformation tradition. But for institutional reasons, during the 16th and 17th Cent, Lutherans and Reformed tended to emphasize their differences.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Lots of reasons imo. Here are a few of them:

1. Because it isn't written in strict legalease in the manner of a persons last will or a court decision. It often employs allegory, stories, parables, and poetry that speak primely to the heart and often bypass the merely "logical". It's not written in the manner of a scholastic theology text book or a science book.

2. Because there are actually disagreements in opinion between some of the various authors. One group seizes on one side and glosses over / ignores the other and another group will take up the opposite verses and do the same to the verses the first group made the mainstay of their arguments.

3. Not all people are equally blessed with discernment.

4. People are at different states and of different psychological types. A teaching or practice may be more expedient for one type of person and not as much so for another. A teaching that is perfect for person "a" might not be as useful for person "b" for example.
 
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hedrick

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I think that there are three issues that are critical to the fabric of the various churches.

OK, let's look at these issues.

REAL PRESENCE

i've looked at a few things about communion by Baptists. The problem is that their statements are primarily negative. However as far as I can tell, they see it as a memorial, in which we remember and give thanks for Christ's death for us. The bread and wine are symbolic of Christ's body and blood. So how close is this to the other end, which is Lutheran and Calvinist? I think substantially it is fairly close.

There's an unreasonable tendency among "high church" Protestants to disparage the terms symbol and remembrance. But a symbol is a visible sign of something beyond it. That's exactly what almost all Protestants think the elements are. Similarly in remembrance, if done seriously, I think someone would be spiritually communing with Christ's body and blood.

Similarly I think there's an unreasonable tendency among Baptists to misinterpret other Protestants' language. Thus they reject the sacraments as sacraments, even though treatments I've read agree that they are signs that point to things Christ has done, which is consistent with the usual definition of a sacrament as a visible sign of a spiritual reality. The rejection of them as means of grace seems to me to be based on the Catholic concept of grace as a fluid dispensed by the Church, and not as the usual Protestant definition of grace as a disposition of God to save us.

It is clearly the case that Lutherans, on the one end, and Baptists, on the other do not have the same description of the Lord's supper. I don't claim that Protestants agree on everything. However I think our focus on verbal formulas unnecessarily divides us. The Lutheran confessions do say that we take Christ's body and blood orally, which surely Baptists and even Calvinsts do not accept. Yet despite this, the Solid Declaration in 104 and105 makes it clear that while the mouth participates, the mode in which Christ is present is spiritual, so that "through faith true believers are in the Spirit incorporated into Christ, the Lord, and become true spiritual members of His body." Surely Baptists and Reformed would agree with this. Despite the confessional documents' vehement rejection of Calvinist spiritual presence, I believe that Calvin's concept of spiritual communion with a body that is physically in heaven, and the Lutheran concept of a body that is actually present with us, but in a spiritual rather than a physical mode, is substantially the same thing. And that the Baptist concept of the elements as signs through which we remember Christ's acts for us in faith is likely to be in practice what I would refer to a spiritually communing with Christ's body and blood.

DOUBLE PREDESTINATION AND FREE WILL

Why do the PCUSA and ELCA see ourselves as cousins on this issue? Because we both believe that we are unable to do anything for our own salvation without God calling us. In fact the Lutherans and Reformed agree on how justification happens. Where we disagree is whether it requires cooperation for us to continue in that state. And even there, I think this is a matter of viewpoint. Calvinists maintain that our justification, from the beginning to the end, is entirely God's work. Yet, we also admit that people do fall away. We say that in reality, they weren't saved to begin with. But that's God's perspective, which we certainly don't have. From our own perspective, people certainly do fall away. But Luther is fairly clear that he does not believe we can see things from God's perspective, and that it is a mistake to try. So I believe Lutherans are explicitly referring to how things are visibly, while Calvinists are giving a description that only makes sense from God's perspective. I must say that as a Calvinist, I have a lot of sympathy for Luther on this point.

Most generally, I think there are two concepts of the relationship between grace and free will, which do in fact differ, but in a way that should not break communion. We all reject the extremes: that we are able to respond to God's demands on our own, and on the other end that God forces us to do things and so we are not responsible. Everyone agrees that salvation is based on God's gracious actions, and that we make real choices for which we are responsible. So we both think that God's grace and our will are essential. The question is how we see the relationship between the two. Calvinists almost always believe in compatibilism. This sees God as wholly in charge, but it also sees that there are two levels of explanation. If you look at things from God's perspective, everything happens in accordance with his plan. Yet, they happen through secondary causes. We make real decisions for which we are properly held responsible, even though they are part of his plan. Arminians have the same two considerations: God's actions and our responsible decisions, but rather than the two levels of explanation of the compatibilist, they see them as interacting in such a way that they can't be separated. In both cases we maintain that God's will and our responsible choice are both essential to a full account, but Arminians say that they interat in such a way that both are responsible, and Calvinists say that both are responsible, but on different levels of explanation. I think these are both attempts at talking about the same thing.

VISIBLE CHURCH

This is another area in which I think there's unnecessary conflict. Many Protestants have chosen to deny the existence of a visible Church. What they mean by this is that our true union is in Christ, and it is not represented by any one ecclesiastical body. Personally I prefer to say that there is one Church, which is visible, but that this visible Church is present in a number of different ecclesiastical bodies. At any rate, I believe this point is different from the other two, because it is really a Protestant-Catholic argument and not an intra-Protestant argument. And I think that even in the Protestant-Catholic argument, there's a fair amount of ideological manipulation of definitions to emphasize disagreement.

But I do think there's more substantial differences between Protestant and Catholic theology than within the Protestant tradition(s), and that some of those differences matter.
 
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mark46

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REAL PRESENCE

The issue is "real presence" vs. "real absence".

I agree with you that too much is made of the various human understandings of the mystery of real presence. I like the approach of the EO and of Methodists. Real presence is a MYSTERY. After all, that is the Greek word, sacrament being derived from the Latin. The improtant thing is that we receive Jesus. I would say that we receive "body, blood, soul and divinity", but that formula should not be church-breaking. I am a fully comfortable with receiving Jesus spiritually.

I think that you go overboard in trying to make the Baptist understanding fit. As I indicated before, the are hundreds of millions of others who agree with their position. The Lord's Table may or may no be very important within these churches. What is clear is that we do NOT receive Jesus. We are not joined to the cross. We are not joined to the sacrifice. We participate in a memorial of his death. As some have said, even Zwingli did not go this far; but it is clear that many (most?) American evanglelicals do.

So, I agree that this should not be a church-dividing issue for Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians.

OK, let's look at these issues.

REAL PRESENCE

i've looked at a few things about communion by Baptists. The problem is that their statements are primarily negative. However as far as I can tell, they see it as a memorial, in which we remember and give thanks for Christ's death for us. The bread and wine are symbolic of Christ's body and blood. So how close is this to the other end, which is Lutheran and Calvinist? I think substantially it is fairly close.

There's an unreasonable tendency among "high church" Protestants to disparage the terms symbol and remembrance. But a symbol is a visible sign of something beyond it. That's exactly what almost all Protestants think the elements are. Similarly in remembrance, if done seriously, I think someone would be spiritually communing with Christ's body and blood.

Similarly I think there's an unreasonable tendency among Baptists to misinterpret other Protestants' language. Thus they reject the sacraments as sacraments, even though treatments I've read agree that they are signs that point to things Christ has done, which is consistent with the usual definition of a sacrament as a visible sign of a spiritual reality. The rejection of them as means of grace seems to me to be based on the Catholic concept of grace as a fluid dispensed by the Church, and not as the usual Protestant definition of grace as a disposition of God to save us.

It is clearly the case that Lutherans, on the one end, and Baptists, on the other do not have the same description of the Lord's supper. I don't claim that Protestants agree on everything. However I think our focus on verbal formulas unnecessarily divides us. The Lutheran confessions do say that we take Christ's body and blood orally, which surely Baptists and even Calvinsts do not accept. Yet despite this, the Solid Declaration in 104 and105 makes it clear that while the mouth participates, the mode in which Christ is present is spiritual, so that "through faith true believers are in the Spirit incorporated into Christ, the Lord, and become true spiritual members of His body." Surely Baptists and Reformed would agree with this. Despite the confessional documents' vehement rejection of Calvinist spiritual presence, I believe that Calvin's concept of spiritual communion with a body that is physically in heaven, and the Lutheran concept of a body that is actually present with us, but in a spiritual rather than a physical mode, is substantially the same thing. And that the Baptist concept of the elements as signs through which we remember Christ's acts for us in faith is likely to be in practice what I would refer to a spiritually communing with Christ's body and blood.
 
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mark46

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I believe that we all understand why PCUSA and TEC are in full communion with ELCA. They all consider 21st century US social issues more important that the different views of God that their founders fought over.

Calvinists and Lutherans simply have different understandings of God and the nature of man. Most Anglicans and Methodists stand with Luther on this issue. Perhaps it is John Wesley that argued the position most strongly against the Calvinist position. In any case, the differences are real. But it does seem that social issues are more important in today's churches.

In the end, these churches can live with the difference in theology. Most of their parishioners have "more important" issues to deal with.


OK, let's look at these issues.

DOUBLE PREDESTINATION AND FREE WILL

Why do the PCUSA and ELCA see ourselves as cousins on this issue? Because we both believe that we are unable to do anything for our own salvation without God calling us. In fact the Lutherans and Reformed agree on how justification happens. Where we disagree is whether it requires cooperation for us to continue in that state. And even there, I think this is a matter of viewpoint. Calvinists maintain that our justification, from the beginning to the end, is entirely God's work. Yet, we also admit that people do fall away. We say that in reality, they weren't saved to begin with. But that's God's perspective, which we certainly don't have. From our own perspective, people certainly do fall away. But Luther is fairly clear that he does not believe we can see things from God's perspective, and that it is a mistake to try. So I believe Lutherans are explicitly referring to how things are visibly, while Calvinists are giving a description that only makes sense from God's perspective. I must say that as a Calvinist, I have a lot of sympathy for Luther on this point.

Most generally, I think there are two concepts of the relationship between grace and free will, which do in fact differ, but in a way that should not break communion. We all reject the extremes: that we are able to respond to God's demands on our own, and on the other end that God forces us to do things and so we are not responsible. Everyone agrees that salvation is based on God's gracious actions, and that we make real choices for which we are responsible. So we both think that God's grace and our will are essential. The question is how we see the relationship between the two. Calvinists almost always believe in compatibilism. This sees God as wholly in charge, but it also sees that there are two levels of explanation. If you look at things from God's perspective, everything happens in accordance with his plan. Yet, they happen through secondary causes. We make real decisions for which we are properly held responsible, even though they are part of his plan. Arminians have the same two considerations: God's actions and our responsible decisions, but rather than the two levels of explanation of the compatibilist, they see them as interacting in such a way that they can't be separated. In both cases we maintain that God's will and our responsible choice are both essential to a full account, but Arminians say that they interat in such a way that both are responsible, and Calvinists say that both are responsible, but on different levels of explanation. I think these are both attempts at talking about the same thing.
 
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mark46

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I too like the paradigm of branch theory, the idea that there are more than one ecclesial entities within the one visible church. Of course, all churches have rejected the view.

You call this issue a Protestant-Catholic arguement. I disagree. I believe that this is an apostolic church argument. Lutherans believe that there is one visible church (as do Anglicans, EO, OO and RCC). I would say that the visible church is broken. Of course, each of the churches believe that they are the exclusive one true church. High-church Anglicans (and Methodists) are very comfortable in a Lutheran Church.

So, while I agree with you for the most part, I would put high-church Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists on the catholic and Catholic side of the argument.

I say this in no disrespect, but for me Luther and his followers did indeed REFORM the Church. Most others left to form new churches, with new doctrines.

OK, let's look at these issues.

VISIBLE CHURCH

This is another area in which I think there's unnecessary conflict. Many Protestants have chosen to deny the existence of a visible Church. What they mean by this is that our true union is in Christ, and it is not represented by any one ecclesiastical body. Personally I prefer to say that there is one Church, which is visible, but that this visible Church is present in a number of different ecclesiastical bodies. At any rate, I believe this point is different from the other two, because it is really a Protestant-Catholic argument and not an intra-Protestant argument. And I think that even in the Protestant-Catholic argument, there's a fair amount of ideological manipulation of definitions to emphasize disagreement.

But I do think there's more substantial differences between Protestant and Catholic theology than within the Protestant tradition(s), and that some of those differences matter.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I too like the paradigm of branch theory, the idea that there are more than one ecclesial entities within the one visible church. Of course, all churches have rejected the view.

You call this issue a Protestant-Catholic arguement. I disagree. I believe that this is an apostolic church argument. Lutherans believe that there is one visible church (as do Anglicans, EO, OO and RCC). I would say that the visible church is broken. Of course, each of the churches believe that they are the exclusive one true church. High-church Anglicans (and Methodists) are very comfortable in a Lutheran Church.

So, while I agree with you for the most part, I would put high-church Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists on the catholic and Catholic side of the argument.

I say this in no disrespect, but for me Luther and his followers did indeed REFORM the Church. Most others left to form new churches, with new doctrines.

I would agree with all of that except the part about the visible Church being broken.

Who would have guessed?

Forgive me...
 
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PaladinValer

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How meaningful is that when multiple parishes actually teach these ways of thinking, with not a peep from their primates or anyone else?

I'm not sure about that. It is a well known fact that ++Rowan Williams is a Anglo-Catholic. We know about the personal churchmanships of the primates.

The Articles are not exactly binding either, but it is interesting you should mention them, because I don't think they could be read as anything other than Protestant - that is, the product of Protestant theology.

Newman+ did a good job showing how they could be interpreted in a fully Catholic way. And while he unfortunately caught Roman fever, many who agreed with him did not.

Now, I think Anglicanism also is meant to be catholic, and I'd personally like to see it lose some of its Protestant aspects, but I can't see denying it as a product of the Reformation - no church that affirms sola fide could IMO.

Ah, but faith is more than belief: it is how belief is practiced and worked out. Therefore, I can be sola fide while still valuing works in the same way as other Apostolic churches.
 
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hedrick

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. The improtant thing is that we receive Jesus. I would say that we receive "body, blood, soul and divinity", but that formula should not be church-breaking. I am a fully comfortable with receiving Jesus spiritually. ... I think that you go overboard in trying to make the Baptist understanding fit.

But what does it mean to receive Jesus, to be united to the cross, etc? This is all non-literal language, describing a spiritual reality. What reason do you have to think that a Baptist, in participating in communion and remembering Christ's death for him, is not receiving Jesus and being united to the cross?

As you probably know, Zwingli himself was willing to refer to eating spiritually. Many Baptists hold views that are Reformed or near to it. But not all are comfortable with this terminology. The best online reference I've found so far for Baptist views is this The Baptist Way: The Lord&#8217;s Supper (1) | internetmonk.com. Staying away from those people he refers to who are Reformed, the most detailed exposition what what it actually means is J.L. Dagg, who he identifies as the first Southern Baptist "writing theologian." He says the following (in the middle of a fairly long treatment): "The eucharist is a picture, so to speak, in which the bread represents the body of Christ suffering for our sins. Faith discerns what the picture represents. It discerns the Lord's body in the commemorative representation of it, and derives spiritual nourishment from the atoning sacrifice made by his broken body and shed blood." How is this not spiritual eating?

His protest against calling it a means of grace is pretty clearly based on the understanding that this means it operates independent of faith: "A notion has prevailed extensively, that a spiritual efficacy attends the outward performance of the rite, if duly administered. Some mysterious influence is supposed to accompany the bread and wine, and render them means of grace to the recipient. But, as the gospel, though it is the power of God unto salvation, does not profit unless mixed with faith in those who hear it; much less can mere ceremonies profit without faith." But this is certainly not what I mean when I call the sacraments means of grace, and I would feel fairly sure that's true for Lutherans as well. I mean simply that they are means which God in his grace established to help us. But they aren't magic; they depend upon God's Spirit at work in us, and our faith.

Of course a mysterious influence does actually accompany the bread and wine. That influence is called the Holy Spirit. And communion is a particularly important way in which the Holy Spirit works. But that is true of Scripture, of preaching, and other things as well, as he acknowledges. (As a Calvinist, I may be a bit more inclined to give grace priority over our response, but I don't think that's the issue here.)

Later addition: actually the main page of this blog has a lot more on Baptist views of communion, http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/category/baptists. I haven't had a chance to read them all yet.
 
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Rick Otto

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Ah, but faith is more than belief: it is how belief is practiced and worked out.
I think faith is just belief. I think works are a result.


Therefore, I can be sola fide while still valuing works in the same way as other Apostolic churches.
Except that the Apostles taught salvation was dependant on the saving grace of God'e mercy alone, not co-dependant on works. God's judgement of the works of believers is about rewards in heaven, not entrance into it.
 
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hedrick

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I believe that we all understand why PCUSA and TEC are in full communion with ELCA. They all consider 21st century US social issues more important that the different views of God that their founders fought over.

Calvinists and Lutherans simply have different understandings of God and the nature of man. Most Anglicans and Methodists stand with Luther on this issue. Perhaps it is John Wesley that argued the position most strongly against the Calvinist position. In any case, the differences are real. But it does seem that social issues are more important in today's churches.

In the end, these churches can live with the difference in theology. Most of their parishioners have "more important" issues to deal with.

This is at least partly ad hominem. Having grown up in both Methodist and Presbyterian churches, I am fairly sure I know what's going on. Many Protestants got tired of the bickering over which Protestant sect is the true church. This was at its peak in the 19th Cent, but continued into the 20th (and in some quarters continues today). My father, e.g., is unwilling to look at theology in any detail because it looks to him like a bunch of pointless argument, on which there's no way to decide who is right.

The emphasis on praxis is a result of that conclusion more than a cause. And I would point out that this emphasis is consistent with Jesus', and I think also Paul's, although Paul is a bit more doctrinal. Hence I would argue that it's also a result of people reading Scripture, and deciding that whether they serve their neighbor matters more to God than whether they hold correct doctrine. You comment in another posting about whether the Reformation reformed the Church. I believe that it did. But I think it failed to deal with one key issue, which is the nature and role of theology. Hence they looked for better answers, and I think often got them, but they didn't consider whether the quest for the right formula needed to be reexamined.

Personally, I've been fascinated with theology since I was a young teenager. However I have finally concluded that we need to look at what concerns are actually represented. On the major theological points there are real things at risk. But in most cases we're in no position to provide complete answers. We'd be better to emulate Scripture, which tends to provide multiple perspectives and images, while Christians have tended to mandate specific formulae. There are positions that we need to rule out. But I think it's best to see Luther and Calvin as making two imperfect attempts at describing the same thing. And as far as I can tell, Baptists are also doing that, although I think many Baptists are overreacting to Catholic errors by rejecting terminology that would make things clearer than their typical statements.
 
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