The protestant Churches

[razeontherock]

Do we see any Apostle embracing diversity?

What examples could be shown?

Forgive me...

Here we need definitions. What is "acceptable diversity" per our Lord, and what is not? Obviously I'm not about to speak to that except where Scripture does. What I perceive as MOST issues that separate Pr-type denoms from one another, are minor little things Scripture is silent on. Not (yet) being knowledgeable about Church Tradition, I will say that there must be such diversity that falls on both sides of this as well.

I don't think our Lord could be pleased with the idea of Baptism being unnecessary being proclaimed from the pulpit, just as 1 example. Even if such were preached by a visiting guest, it is the Pastor's responsibility to put a lid on that, right on the spot. You would call this dogma, so I guess I'm saying that however many Pr denoms most non-Pr's object to, most of those agree w/ you on dogma, or at least most of it.

I think the significant thing is, what Christ is preached? Error on this lone issue is the best route of entry for infection into the Body. Any group that errs on this I would not honor w/ the title of denom, but label as a cult. An individual congregation cursed w/ a leader who errs on this subject, I would consider as a flock being fleeced, and urge them to leave. I will also point out such "Church discipline" is much like I have learned the EO administers; that the congregation can reject their leadership, which I find to be perfectly appropriate. (Yes this does open the door to the Godly purpose of a Bishop

 

[Rick Otto]

Here we need definitions. What is "acceptable diversity" per our Lord, and what is not? Obviously I'm not about to speak to that except where Scripture does. What I perceive as MOST issues that separate Pr-type denoms from one another, are minor little things Scripture is silent on. Not (yet) being knowledgeable about Church Tradition, I will say that there must be such diversity that falls on both sides of this as well.

I don't think our Lord could be pleased with the idea of Baptism being unnecessary being proclaimed from the pulpit, just as 1 example. Even if such were preached by a visiting guest, it is the Pastor's responsibility to put a lid on that, right on the spot. You would call this dogma, so I guess I'm saying that however many Pr denoms most non-Pr's object to, most of those agree w/ you on dogma, or at least most of it.

I think the significant thing is, what Christ is preached? Error on this lone issue is the best route of entry for infection into the Body. Any group that errs on this I would not honor w/ the title of denom, but label as a cult. An individual congregation cursed w/ a leader who errs on this subject, I would consider as a flock being fleeced, and urge them to leave. I will also point out such "Church discipline" is much like I have learned the EO administers; that the congregation can reject their leadership, which I find to be perfectly appropriate. (Yes this does open the door to the Godly purpose of a Bishop

I find that reasonable.

 

[Rick Otto]

I would have to disagree. Christ God's prayer to The Father seems to be the opposite of this. John 17:21

Forgive me...

Maybe a little on the surface:

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father,art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I think we all believe Our Father sent Him.

So let's adjust our perspective to include :
Luke 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Looks like unity is about something deeper than congregational conformity

 

[PaladinValer]

Thats more of a nit pick, as generally only Anglo-Catholic, and High Church fellas would make this claim. The larger more evangelical bunch of Anglicanism generally consider themselves protestant.

Excuse me...

These same evangelical or low-church Anglicans hold to things that Protestantism outright rejects:

1. Real Presence
2. Apostolic Succession
3. Deuterocanon
4. Episcopal governance
5. Seven Sacraments

Find me one indisputable Protestant denomination that holds to these. Good luck.

Open Evangelicals and some low-church Anglicans may have different opinions on the theologies of those, but they still hold to them.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

The Anglican Church is far too wide to say that they are all Catholic. I will admit I was broad brushing as I will admit that High Church, and Anglo-Catholic Churches are "catholic" however you just as well cannot say that they are all Catholic...as clearly not all are.

 

[avra34v2]

wrong beliefs/interpretations =/= heresy

 

[razeontherock]

It's interesting to see the variety of definitions people have for "heresy," a thoroughly antiquated term I should think we have no use for. Of all I have encountered, the one most useful is "originating with other than the Apostles." (Pertaining only to Christian teaching, of course)

Which would seem to make wrong beliefs and interpretations the only thing heresy refers to?

 

[Noxot]

@ razeontherock

dang! and all this time I thought people were talking about the hershey food company.

but i think sometimes there is a difference in between types of heretics. some are so cancerous that you must cut them out and others are more humble and become humbled and become transmuted into the proper body part or something else happens that is too high for my understanding.

but seriously, that is why women should not teach in church and should have no authority over men. because women are weak and men are strong. but I speak according to things spiritual and not carnal, just as the ancient manly church fathers did and not those childish girly heretics that made schisms.

1Cor 11:18-19 (Webster)
(11:18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it. (11:19) For there must be also heresies among you, that they who are approved may be made manifest among you.



1Cor 11:18-19 (ABP)
(11:18) πρώτον [3 first μεν 2 indeed γαρ 1 For] συνερχομένων υμών in your coming together εν in εκκλησία assembly, ακούω I hear σχίσματα of splits εν [2 among υμίν 3 you υπάρχειν 1 existing], και and μέρος τι partly πιστεύω I believe it. (11:19) δει γαρ For must και [2 even εν 4 among υμίν 5 you αιρέσεις 1 sects είναι 3 be], ίνα that οι the ones δόκιμοι approved φανεροί [2 apparent γένωνται 1 should become] εν among υμίν you?

G139 αἵρεσις hairesis (hai'-res-is) n.
1. (properly) a choice
2. (by extension) a preference
3. (specially) a (religious) party, a sect, a denomination
4. (abstractly) disunion
[from G138]
KJV: heresy (which is the Greek word itself), sect
Root(s): G138

G138 αἱρέομαι haireomai (hai-reh'-om-ai) (Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ai; which is otherwise obsolete) v.
1. to take for oneself, i.e. to prefer
[probably akin to G142]
KJV: choose
Compare: G1209, G2983


G1209 δέχομαι dechomai (dekh'-om-ai) v.
1. to receive
{(in various applications, literally or figuratively)}
[middle voice of a primary verb]
KJV: accept, receive, take

G2983 λαμβάνω lambano (lam-ban'-o) v.
1. (actively) to take
2. (passively) to receive
3. (objectively) to get hold of (with the hand)
{in very many applications (literally and figuratively); whereas G1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while G138 is more violent, to seize or remove}
[a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses]
KJV: accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up)


G1384 δόκιμος dokimos (dok'-ee-mos) adj.
1. (properly) acceptable (current after assayal), i.e. approved
[from G1380]
KJV: approved, tried

G5318 φανερός phaneros (fan-er-os') adj.
1. shining, i.e. apparent
2. (neuter as adverb) publicly, externally
{literally or figuratively}
[from G5316]
KJV: abroad, + appear, known, manifest, open (+ -ly), outward (+ -ly)

also it is very intresting to note that αἵρεσις hairesis is Gender: Feminine and δόκιμος dokimos and φανερός phaneros is Gender: Masculine and even though i am no expert on greek, I would say that that speaks a wellspring of knowledge according to the spiritual understanding.

 

[PaladinValer]

The Anglican Church is far too wide to say that they are all Catholic. I will admit I was broad brushing as I will admit that High Church, and Anglo-Catholic Churches are "catholic" however you just as well cannot say that they are all Catholic...as clearly not all are.

Nice dodge. Now answer the challenge please.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Nice dodge. Now answer the challenge please.

allow me to point you to all the Reformed (Calvinist) Episcopalian Churches, and denominations that exist within the Anglican Communion. You can't broadbrush it....not all of the Anglican Communion is Catholic, rather it is evangelical as well.

 

[razeontherock]

there is a difference in between types of heretics. some are so cancerous that you must cut them out and others are more humble

This is a distinction those that proclaim they are part of the "one true Church" also make. You and I aren't heretics if we merely follow others who were, rather than make up our own foolishness and spread that. Awfully big of them, isn't it?

that is why women should not teach in church and should have no authority over men. because women are weak and men are strong. but I speak according to things spiritual and not carnal

Well it's appropriate that I share a little wrt this. And I'm sure at least some reading this will vouch, as having seen me be a bit too "strong" on occaision, and I was much moreso at your age. Spiritually speaking mankind is not the image of G-d in the masculine only, but we require both genders. This is a subtlety you might be ready to fathom?

 

[Sarcalogos Deus]

Anglicanism isn't Protestant. Scripture, Tradition, Reason.

Anglicanism is a little bit of everything. It's liberal and conservative, Catholic and Protestant, basically Anglicanism is one really big tent.

 

[Noxot]

This is a distinction those that proclaim they are part of the "one true Church" also make. You and I aren't heretics if we merely follow others who were, rather than make up our own foolishness and spread that. Awfully big of them, isn't it?

I would never throw a heretic in jail or torture him though! sometimes people call others heretics that are not heretics though! but the Lord tells us to not eat certain kinds of animals. if they are made clean by God then we may eat them. and christians can eat poison and live, but some weak christians eat poison and die or at least become injured. but the servants are the strongest christians. I seem to not be worthy of being a servant

Matt 23:8-12 (ESV)
(23:8) But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. (23:9) And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. (23:10) Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. (23:11) The greatest among you shall be your servant. (23:12) Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

but about heretics:

Matt 23:15 (ESV)
(23:15) Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

who could be more heretical than those scribes and pharisees whom Jesus warns both themselves and us about? that seems like a pretty high level of heretic right there. maybe it is better to cut our hand off than to be cast into the fire?(but I am having a hard time comprehending the judgments that Christ is speaking) heck, I doubt I could discern a hand from a foot or different body part. but i do desire for the heretic to be better!

I guess we have to stop the heretic from becoming a full grown heretic? it is sort of like sin I guess?

Jas 1:14-15 (ESV)
(1:14) But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. (1:15) Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Well it's appropriate that I share a little wrt this. And I'm sure at least some reading this will vouch, as having seen me be a bit too "strong" on occaision, and I was much moreso at your age. Spiritually speaking mankind is not the image of G-d in the masculine only, but we require both genders. This is a subtlety you might be ready to fathom?

it is hard to fathom being fully united to Christ. i'm weak, truly. I need Gods help so much. i'm scared of being harmed by others, or harming someone else. why don't you send me a PM?

I think both protestant and othodox churches both fall short. and I myself fall short. I think it is because so many members in both protestant and othodox churches are the ones falling short. but I am not saying that to talk badly about them or to condemn them.

 

[mark46]

For me, "heretic" is a very srious charge or label. It means that such a person would cause a person to be thrown out of the Church by an Ecumenical Council if we were to have one today as we did in the first 800 years. The early councils were all about fighting heresies.

Thus anyone who denies the elements of the Nicen Creed might be called a heretic or someone who denies the teachings of the first councils of the whole Church.

It is difficult to us the word "heretic" for someone who accepts and confesses the creeds of the unified Church.
=================================

Are there positions (other than rejecting the elements of the Creeds) held that might be deemed heretical by a 21st century Council? Probably, but we would likely disagree on what those might be. There are many candidates.

1) that all people go to heaven
2) double predestination
3) that Scripture alone is the source of all truth
4) that Jesus does not come to us at the Lord's Table in body or Spirit
5) that stated faith alone can guarantee eternal life
6) that one can be known to saved forever without possibility of losing such salvation
7) that any man is infallible or supreme
8) rejection of the visible Church
9) rejection of sacraments
10) rejection of the reality of spriritual gifts in our time

That's my list. Others have different lists.

This is a distinction those that proclaim they are part of the "one true Church" also make. You and I aren't heretics if we merely follow others who were, rather than make up our own foolishness and spread that. Awfully big of them, isn't it?



Well it's appropriate that I share a little wrt this. And I'm sure at least some reading this will vouch, as having seen me be a bit too "strong" on occaision, and I was much moreso at your age. Spiritually speaking mankind is not the image of G-d in the masculine only, but we require both genders. This is a subtlety you might be ready to fathom?

 

[MKJ]

Excuse me...

These same evangelical or low-church Anglicans hold to things that Protestantism outright rejects:

1. Real Presence
2. Apostolic Succession
3. Deuterocanon
4. Episcopal governance
5. Seven Sacraments

Find me one indisputable Protestant denomination that holds to these. Good luck.

Open Evangelicals and some low-church Anglicans may have different opinions on the theologies of those, but they still hold to them.

Actually, I don't think this is true. There are plenty of Anglicans that don't accept these things. There are people over at STR whose whole parishes pretty much reject these things at all, or see them as unimportant, and that is not particularly unusual in some places.

 

[Bryne]

Actually, I don't think this is true. There are plenty of Anglicans that don't accept these things. There are people over at STR whose whole parishes pretty much reject these things at all, or see them as unimportant, and that is not particularly unusual in some places.

I saw a couple of folks over there defining baptism the way a Baptist would...that perplexed me a bit.

 

[PaladinValer]

allow me to point you to all the Reformed (Calvinist) Episcopalian Churches, and denominations that exist within the Anglican Communion. You can't broadbrush it....not all of the Anglican Communion is Catholic, rather it is evangelical as well.

Let me make something clear: While there is latitude, there is still a base. That base is what I posted. That base is clearly not within Protestantism.

The actual body called the Reformed Episcopal Church, while a part of the wider Anglican tradition, is not a member of the Anglican Communion. It furthermore doesn't always like to consider itself a part of the Continuing Church tradition since it left 100 years previous (Continuing Church broke away back in the 70's for the most part).

Then there is the longstanding history.

We are not a Protestant denomination as Protestantism is classically and theologically understood. While there are some elements of Protestantism in Anglicanism, most of them can be found within either of the Orthodox communions too. And while there is indeed latitude (I mentioned this before), the base stands absolute.

Are there some Anglicans (Canterbury or Continuing) that go too far either way? Sure: we call them Anglo-Papist and Crypto-Calvinists. The Diocese of Sydney is a good example of Crypto-Calvinism and there have been a few people who've posted here on CF who were Anglo-Papist. These are extremes that go BEYOND that base; in essence, they've left Anglicanism in all but officially name.

I would appreciate it if you would actually LEARN about Anglicanism, both the Canterbury Communion, the Continuing Churches, and even the Reformed Episcopal Church, before you continue your ridiculous accusation.

I'm not some newbie member either. I've been an official member for several years and TEACH its history, practice, and belief. I have that much official confidence from my priest, who holds a doctorate from a well-recognized seminary within the church, to do this. I know quite a bit, and to be honest, those who call us Protestant usually don't know the full history, which, while complicated and very complex, time and time again stands firm within a Catholic (if not ROMAN Catholic) understanding.

Thank you.

 

[razeontherock]

Anglicanism is a little bit of everything. It's liberal and conservative, Catholic and Protestant, basically Anglicanism is one really big tent.

"No matter what you believe, you can find an Episcopalian who agrees with you."

- Robin Williams (we're both raised Ep, so we can get away with that )

 

[PaladinValer]

Actually, I don't think this is true. There are plenty of Anglicans that don't accept these things. There are people over at STR whose whole parishes pretty much reject these things at all, or see them as unimportant, and that is not particularly unusual in some places.

It doesn't change the fact that these are requisits found within either the 39 Articles or the Chicago-Lambeth quadralateral.

While certain members may deviate, the church officially still holds to.

 

[razeontherock]

I seem to not be worthy of being a servant

I am having a hard time comprehending the judgments that Christ is speaking) heck, I doubt I could discern a hand from a foot or different body part. but i do desire for the heretic to be better!

it is hard to fathom being fully united to Christ. i'm weak, truly. I need Gods help so much. i'm scared of being harmed by others, or harming someone else.

These are all pure thoughts! Wrestling with these things, honestly, crying out to the Lord in our weakness, is a very significant part of the Christian "walk." Look for King David doing these very things in Psalms! Except right now you don't need to, you are 'writing your own.' Such humility is the stuff G-d can work with:

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

"my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2 Cor 12:9)

Right now you're in good company! May His face shine upon you.