Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
that's an awesome point.... we teach/tell people how to get saved.... because we don't want them to go to hell....Bob, Do you ever tell the poor how to get "filthy rich" like you or do you leave it to woffers to do that so that they can get "condemned" for it?
that's an awesome point.... we teach/tell people how to get saved.... because we don't want them to go to hell....
we do the same concerning healing.... because we don't want them to suffer.... and/or die prematurely.....
someone has to care about the poor and needy.... we can give them handouts.... forever.... OR.... we can teach them GOD'S WORD on prosperity..... and let them receive HIS blessings in their area of need/ignorance/suffering....
if we see our brother in ANY need.... it is wrong to say.... be blessed.... and DO NOTHING to help them....
not quite sure what you mean?.... are you agreeing that we SHOULD teach poor people about receiving GOD'S blessing/prosperity?.... or are you saying we SHOULDN'T teach them because they will just pick it up on their own?.... without ANY teaching?....And this is different in what way from "Normal Biblical Process Christianity"?????
As for your newsflash, I have no use for your propaganda. It reeks of Calvinism.
statistics prove you are wrong in this assumption.... there are a lot of poverty-minded law-abiding (GOD'S laws & man's laws) people... that are poor....It's simple, Yah declares blessings on those that follow His instructions and curses on those that rebell against His instruction. We FIRST have to seek His kingdom, first we have to prosper our soul.
You don't get the blessings by speaking them, you get them by doing His will! The unsaved even qualify for the blessings if they follow Yah's law. For example, Jews are often wealthy and they follow many of the Laws like refraining from unclean foods. That carries a blessing. They are principals of life, not the requirement for salvation. We don't earn salvation but we do earn blessings and eternal rewards by our actions. The earning of eternal rewards is covered in Rev 2&3. The reward goes to the overcomers of the error within their church.
"Secondly, whether something "works" or not, really has no bearing on whether it is "true" or not."
So obviously it doesn't "work" for you either, and you're no "better off" (in an "Overt fashion") than the majority of folks around you. I don't know a LOT of dedicated WoF adherents, but it's been pretty obvious to ME over the years that I'm not "Missing anything".
On the other hand, by simply committing my life to HIM 50 years ago, and trusting also in HIM - I'm well provided for (filthy rich by "world standards" - like most "U.S." residents), and He's had me in the RIGHT PLACE at the RIGHT TIME consistently ever since 1962.
And all that without bothering with popular "Wof" practices, or beliefs.
Bob, Do you ever tell the poor how to get "filthy rich" like you or do you leave it to woffers to do that so that they can get "condemned" for it?
amen.... and HALLELUJAH.... absolutely excellent post.... compassion dictates that we help the poor.... wof works best amongst the poor.... because they have NO hope besides GOD.... perhaps ONLY poor people realize how great a suffering poverty really is....And that is really the point isn't it?
Of course, whether something 'works' or not is entirely dependent upon your place in time when you are observing it. For instance, if you talked to Abram when he was 98 years old, it would have been easy to laugh at him and tell him that it obviously didn't work for him. After all, how many years had he been waiting for a son? Forty some?
But if you talked to Abraham when he was 100, it was a different story, wasn't it? If Abram had already had a son, or several sons, when God spoke to him the first time, would he have had the oppourtunity to believe God, or would he have even wanted to?
The problem with Bobs scenario is that it is exactly what Jesus was addressing when he spoke to the rich young ruler. Jesus told him to go, sell that you have, give it to the poor, and come follow me. The rich man went away sorrowful, because he couldn't give away his goods. The question is why? It was because he had already been provided for by virtue of his birth and status, as well as by his own hand, and by obeying the law. He felt no need to believe God for his wealth or even just for his needs to be met, when they already were.
This was when Jesus said, "How hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Truly I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
The kingdom of God operates by faith, and one has no oportunity to believe God for anything or to use their faith when they have already managed to meet their own needs without believing the promises.
That is why the WOF message is the only branch of christianity that is exploding outside of the US in the thrid world. There have been multiple articles written about it, and many of the mainline and older established churches, as well as the WOF critics are completely confused by the movement of world christianity towards WOF beliefs. Specially in light of the fact that some of these groups and denominations have had missionaries in these countries for decades, and even generations without much success. A handfull of salvations here and there, but no mass conversions. Yet mass conversions is the name of the game for WOF, and it is the fastest growing and largest group of Protestants in the third world today.
I remember that 20 years ago the main argument of the WOF critic was that it was an American phenomenon, that could only occur here, and would never work in the third world. This to them, was proof positive that their criticism of WOF was justified. Since then, whole countries, (pluralities and/or majorities) have come to saving knowledge of Christ through the spread of the WOF message, to the absolute consternation of the ciritcs. They cannot understand it. Yet it has happened, and continues to happen.
Why? Because the gospel to the poor is a powerful thing. When you cannot feed your family, or have a roof over your head, or even have clean drinking water, a God who has provided for and cares about your physical well being, and who has provided promises of prosperity to that end, is a God worth serving. These people need to believe in a God who prospers. The argument that Bob has put forth, is simply a symtom of those that do not need to believe in a God who prospers. They have already taken care of themselves, so they don't need to believe the promises of God.
Peace...
prosperity teaching has no effect on provision level? Sowing sparingly will yield what? You do not believe the Gospel teaches increase provision, just what ever you can happen on or dig up I suppose. Consider Philippians chapter 4 verse 17. Not because I desire a gift : but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. Why would Paul encourage them to give if not for being blessed for giving. Why do some ignore all the bible verses that teach that giving and prosperity are united. How can people God just gives more to some Christians than others. It comes down to faith. And people just don't have the faith to give knowing they will be blessed beyond what they hope for. So they denied the idea of prosperity and condemned those who apply the word to their lives."not quite sure what you mean?.... are you agreeing that we SHOULD teach poor people about receiving GOD'S blessing/prosperity?.... or are you saying we SHOULDN'T teach them because they will just pick it up on their own?.... without ANY teaching?...."
well - lets look at your list:
"we teach/tell people how to get saved"
Yup - that's called "Evangelism" - it's what "Evangelicals" do - nothing specific to popular "WoF".
"we do the same concerning healing."
Yup - the Full Gospel branch,and others of the Church, Pentecostals and Charismatics also teach Healing - always have. Some are healed, and others aren't - just like in WoF groups. Nothing specifically "WoF" here. Physical Healing is in the Atonement.
"someone has to care about the poor and needy.... we can give them handouts.... forever.... OR.... we can teach them GOD'S WORD on prosperity..... and let them receive HIS blessings in their area of need/ignorance/suffering...."
And in fact the "Prosperity teaching" has little or no actual effect on their actual "provision level", and we all know it. If it did, there'd be no "Controversy", and the efficacy of the teaching would be obvious for all to see.
The BIBLE DOESN'T tell us to "Teach Prosperity" it tells us to "Seek FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness - and these "Things" will be added unto us". AND it tells us that God WILL provide and the church as a whole teaches just that, so nothing specifically "WoF" there either.
"if we see our brother in ANY need.... it is wrong to say.... be blessed.... and DO NOTHING to help them"
And so the "Normal Process Church" Helps others in many ways - always has. Nothing uniquely "WoF" in any of that either.
so are you saying that prosperity IS GOD'S will for HIS people?... just don't teach it?...."not quite sure what you mean?.... are you agreeing that we SHOULD teach poor people about receiving GOD'S blessing/prosperity?.... or are you saying we SHOULDN'T teach them because they will just pick it up on their own?.... without ANY teaching?...."
"someone has to care about the poor and needy.... we can give them handouts.... forever.... OR.... we can teach them GOD'S WORD on prosperity..... and let them receive HIS blessings in their area of need/ignorance/suffering...."
And in fact the "Prosperity teaching" has little or no actual effect on their actual "provision level", and we all know it. If it did, there'd be no "Controversy", and the efficacy of the teaching would be obvious for all to see.
The BIBLE DOESN'T tell us to "Teach Prosperity" it tells us to "Seek FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness - and these "Things" will be added unto us". AND it tells us that God WILL provide and the church as a whole teaches just that, so nothing specifically "WoF" there either.
"if we see our brother in ANY need.... it is wrong to say.... be blessed.... and DO NOTHING to help them"
And so the "Normal Process Church" Helps others in many ways - always has. Nothing uniquely "WoF" in any of that either.
good point on the sowing sparingly.... deuteronomy 28:1-15 ALSO teaches prosperity....prosperity teaching has no effect on provision level? Sowing sparingly will yield what? You do not believe the Gospel teaches increase provision, just what ever you can happen on or dig up I suppose. Consider Philippians chapter 4 verse 17. Not because I desire a gift : but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. Why would Paul encourage them to give if not for being blessed for giving. Why do some ignore all the bible verses that teach that giving and prosperity are united. How can people God just gives more to some Christians than others. It comes down to faith. And people just don't have the faith to give knowing they will be blessed beyond what they hope for. So they denied the idea of prosperity and condemned those who apply the word to their lives.
"The problem with Bobs scenario is that it is exactly what Jesus was addressing when he spoke to the rich young ruler."
Disingenuous, y'all.
I didn't START like the rich young ruler, I had next to nothing starting out, and God simply "Added to me and my family" over the next 50 years.
If I was "WoF" you'd say SEE!!!! IT REALLY WORKED, and proved our teaching!!!
But since I'm not you just say that I "ALWAYS WAS RICH", and "didn't need God".
"Yet mass conversions is the name of the game for WOF, and it is the fastest growing and largest group of Protestants in the third world today."
Actually it's the "Pentecostals/Charismatics" that are the Fastest growing segment of the church in the World - including the "Third World" nations. Statistically 1 out of every 2 protestant Christians (and 15% of Catholics) are "Pentecostal/Charismatic". The Roman Catholic Church has lost SERIOUS "Market Share" in third-world nations, since they offer nothing but tradition, superstition, and pagentry.
Some percentage of the full-gospel folks are "Wof" oriented, but it's not a significant part of the overall world expansion of the church which is "Full Gospel". South America, Africa, and the Far East are the "Growing edges".
The AoG, for example is 2.7 Mil in the U.S., but 60 mil overseas.
And in fact the "Prosperity teaching" has little or no actual effect on their actual "provision level", and we all know it. If it did, there'd be no "Controversy", and the efficacy of the teaching would be obvious for all to see.
the can?.... lol....It looks like the one who started this has run off and left you holding the can -Bob
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?