The prophet who speaks ...

[MoreCoffee]

Consider these words from scripture ...

Deuteronomy 13:1-6 NJB 1 'Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away. 2 'If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you, offering you some sign or wonder, 3 and the sign or wonder comes about; and if he then says to you, "Let us follow other gods (hitherto unknown to you) and serve them," 4 you must not listen to that prophet's words or to that dreamer's dreams. Yahweh your God is testing you to know if you love Yahweh your God with all your heart and all your soul. 5 Yahweh your God is the one whom you must follow, him you must fear, his commandments you must keep, his voice you must obey, him you must serve, to him you must hold fast. 6 That prophet or that dreamer of dreams must be put to death, since he has preached apostasy from Yahweh your God who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slave-labour; and he would have diverted you from the way in which Yahweh your God has commanded you to walk. You must banish this evil from among you.
​

Can this test be relied upon and can it be applied now?

And consider these words from God ...

Jeremiah 23:14-16 NJB 14 But in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: adultery, persistent lying, such abetting of the wicked that no one renounces his wickedness. To me they are all like Sodom and its inhabitants are like Gomorrah. 15 So this is what Yahweh Sabaoth says about the prophets, "Now I shall give them wormwood to eat and make them drink poisoned water, since from the prophets of Jerusalem godlessness has spread throughout the land." 16 'Yahweh Sabaoth says this, "Do not listen to what those prophets prophesy to you; they are deluding you, they retail visions of their own, and not what comes from Yahweh's mouth.
​

Can the words spoken by Jeremiah be relied upon and can they be applied now?

And what of these words from God ...

2 Peter 2:1-3 NJB 1 As there were false prophets in the past history of our people, so you too will have your false teachers, who will insinuate their own disruptive views and, by disowning the Lord who bought them freedom, will bring upon themselves speedy destruction. 2 Many will copy their debauched behaviour, and the Way of Truth will be brought into disrepute on their account. 3 In their greed they will try to make a profit out of you with untrue tales. But the judgement made upon them long ago is not idle, and the destruction awaiting them is for ever on the watch.
​

Can these words from Peter be trusted and relied upon and do they still apply to what happens now?

And then there is this, give thought to these words from God ...

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NJB 20 But the prophet who presumes to say something in my name which I have not commanded him to say, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die." 21 'You may be privately wondering, "How are we to tell that a prophecy does not come from Yahweh?" 22 When a prophet speaks in the name of Yahweh and the thing does not happen and the word is not fulfilled, then it has not been said by Yahweh. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. You have nothing to fear from him.'
​

Can you rely upon the words above and can they be trusted now as they were in the past?

Finally consider these words from God ...

Ezekiel 13:1-9 NJB 1 The word of Yahweh was addressed to me as follows, 2 'Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel; prophesy, and say to those who make up prophecies out of their own heads, "Hear what Yahweh says: 3 The Lord Yahweh says this: Disaster is in store for the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets, Israel, are like ruin-haunting jackals! 5 "You have not ventured into the breach; you have not built up the wall round the House of Israel, to hold fast in battle on the Day of Yahweh. 6 Theirs are futile visions and false predictions, who say: A prophecy from Yahweh, when Yahweh has not sent them; yet they expect their words to come true. 7 Have not the visions you see been futile, have not the predictions you make been false, although you say: A prophecy of Yahweh, when I have not spoken? 8 "Very well, the Lord Yahweh says this: Because of your futile words and false predictions, I am now against you -- declares Lord Yahweh. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who have futile visions and give false predictions; they will not be admitted to the council of my people, their names will not be entered in the roll of the House of Israel, they will not set foot on the soil of Israel; and they will know that I am the Lord Yahweh.
​

Is this true? Can you use this to judge the prophets who speak today?

 

[Standing Up]

What prophet speaks today that declares salvific issues for his people?

 

[DreadWarrior]

Are you suggesting we put to death all false prophets?

 

[sunlover1]

Are you suggesting we put to death all false prophets?

Good luck with that lol

But the text says this too:
"and if he then says to you, "Let us follow other gods"

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are you suggesting we put to death all false prophets?

Maybe the idea for Christians would be to put them out of the assembly. As the scripture says You must banish this evil from among you.

 

[KingCrimson250]

Yes and no. While theoretically much of it is applicable, we unfortunately lack the wisdom and discernment of the prophets and the apostles, and as such are, aside from a few particularly egregious scenarios, unable to authoritatively declare others to be false prophets.


In other words, if every allegation of heresy and false teaching carried weight, we'd all be stoned to death by now.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes and no. While theoretically much of it is applicable, we unfortunately lack the wisdom and discernment of the prophets and the apostles, and as such are, aside from a few particularly egregious scenarios, unable to authoritatively declare others to be false prophets.


In other words, if every allegation of heresy and false teaching carried weight, we'd all be stoned to death by now.

The discernment in the old testament passages was the discernment of checking the content of what was said. If the prophet encouraged false worship then that prophet was false. If the prophet predicted something which did not happen then that prophet was false. If the prophet spoke false words of assurance which failed then that prophet was false.

For us the task is as easy. It ought to be even more easy since we have the Holy Spirit to lead us.

God bless.

 

[pehkay]

The "normal" condition and reality of the OT prophets is that all Christians in the New Testament should prophets (1 Cor. 14:31) ... able to speak for God, speak forth God and dispense God into people that they can be saved, be builded up

 

[MoreCoffee]

The "normal" condition and reality of the OT prophets is that all Christians in the New Testament should prophets (1 Cor. 14:31) ... able to speak for God, speak forth God and dispense God into people that they can be saved, be built up

What do you make of 1 Corinthians 12:29?

 

[squint]

Maybe the idea for Christians would be to put them out of the assembly. As the scripture says You must banish this evil from among you.

It is problematic for anyone to see the Living Word this way, inclusive of every Word of God in the O.T.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

It goes against our natural nature to peer into His Word and see LIFE in them all.

The difficulty with the 'bad Words' comes to light when seeing that the Prophets were not addressing only MAN.

Prophecy 101.

Is there life in the Words you quoted from God earlier, from those early Prophets

Beyond any shadow of doubt.

And those same Words remain a steady and predictable guide for all of us to this day. His Patterns are sure and remain at work in our present world.

Those who toss will never see and are not currently meant to.

I also believe the Nicene Creed accepts the 'fact' that the Old Testament Words of God are applicable to N.T. believers by affirming the positional statements with same, as did every N.T. recorder/writer.

s

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is problematic for anyone to see the Living Word this way, inclusive of every Word of God in the O.T.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

It goes against our natural nature to peer into His Word and see LIFE in them all.

The difficulty with the 'bad Words' comes to light when seeing that the Prophets were not addressing only MAN.

Prophecy 101.

Is there life in the Words you quoted from God earlier, from those early Prophets

Beyond any shadow of doubt.

And those same Words remain a steady and predictable guide for all of us to this day. His Patterns are sure and remain at work in our present world.

Those who toss will never see and are not currently meant to.

I also believe the Nicene Creed accepts the 'fact' that the Old Testament Words of God are applicable to N.T. believers by affirming the positional statements with same, as did every N.T. recorder/writer.

s

Would you tell me what you mean by the reddish-bold text, please?

 

[squint]

Would you tell me what you mean by the reddish-bold text, please?

Tossing away Gods Words of the Old Testament as inapplicable is a common practice.

 

[SG9]

Yes and no. While theoretically much of it is applicable, we unfortunately lack the wisdom and discernment of the prophets and the apostles, and as such are, aside from a few particularly egregious scenarios, unable to authoritatively declare others to be false prophets.


In other words, if every allegation of heresy and false teaching carried weight, we'd all be stoned to death by now.

I thought to add, that's certain that we would all be beheaded, stoning is for another punishment of sins. Many in the world are spiritually beheaded and cannot tell as it appears to them as righteousness clothed with a whitewashed black gown. Many are spiritually dying, and they once thought that they were prophets in their own deceived consciences'. Their God gifted mind, the frontlets were spiritually removed as if being beheaded in the real sense. False prophets are real but appear as any normal person. IMO, any person who doesn't know the truth and professes that they do are False Christs and False Prophets because they preach another gospel from another Christ, which are themselves. Each one is a god, alone. Eve was fooled over this.

 

[DreadWarrior]

If somebody is a false prophet within the church, it then comes under the church elders to do church discipline. Even in most mega-churches it rarely gets to this level though. There's always somebody in the church spewing bad doctrine, but it usually doesn't move further than people in the congregation confronting them in a loving way about it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If somebody is a false prophet within the church, it then comes under the church elders to do church discipline. Even in most mega-churches it rarely gets to this level though. There's always somebody in the church spewing bad doctrine, but it usually doesn't move further than people in the congregation confronting them in a loving way about it.

sounds interesting.

 

[Nanopants]

Consider these words from scripture ...

Deuteronomy 13:1-6 NJB 1 'Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away. 2 'If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you, offering you some sign or wonder, 3 and the sign or wonder comes about; and if he then says to you, "Let us follow other gods (hitherto unknown to you) and serve them," 4 you must not listen to that prophet's words or to that dreamer's dreams. Yahweh your God is testing you to know if you love Yahweh your God with all your heart and all your soul. 5 Yahweh your God is the one whom you must follow, him you must fear, his commandments you must keep, his voice you must obey, him you must serve, to him you must hold fast. 6 That prophet or that dreamer of dreams must be put to death, since he has preached apostasy from Yahweh your God who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slave-labour; and he would have diverted you from the way in which Yahweh your God has commanded you to walk. You must banish this evil from among you.
​

Can this test be relied upon and can it be applied now?

And consider these words from God ...

Jeremiah 23:14-16 NJB 14 But in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: adultery, persistent lying, such abetting of the wicked that no one renounces his wickedness. To me they are all like Sodom and its inhabitants are like Gomorrah. 15 So this is what Yahweh Sabaoth says about the prophets, "Now I shall give them wormwood to eat and make them drink poisoned water, since from the prophets of Jerusalem godlessness has spread throughout the land." 16 'Yahweh Sabaoth says this, "Do not listen to what those prophets prophesy to you; they are deluding you, they retail visions of their own, and not what comes from Yahweh's mouth.
​

Can the words spoken by Jeremiah be relied upon and can they be applied now?

And what of these words from God ...

2 Peter 2:1-3 NJB 1 As there were false prophets in the past history of our people, so you too will have your false teachers, who will insinuate their own disruptive views and, by disowning the Lord who bought them freedom, will bring upon themselves speedy destruction. 2 Many will copy their debauched behaviour, and the Way of Truth will be brought into disrepute on their account. 3 In their greed they will try to make a profit out of you with untrue tales. But the judgement made upon them long ago is not idle, and the destruction awaiting them is for ever on the watch.
​

Can these words from Peter be trusted and relied upon and do they still apply to what happens now?

And then there is this, give thought to these words from God ...

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NJB 20 But the prophet who presumes to say something in my name which I have not commanded him to say, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die." 21 'You may be privately wondering, "How are we to tell that a prophecy does not come from Yahweh?" 22 When a prophet speaks in the name of Yahweh and the thing does not happen and the word is not fulfilled, then it has not been said by Yahweh. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. You have nothing to fear from him.'
​

Can you rely upon the words above and can they be trusted now as they were in the past?

Finally consider these words from God ...

Ezekiel 13:1-9 NJB 1 The word of Yahweh was addressed to me as follows, 2 'Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel; prophesy, and say to those who make up prophecies out of their own heads, "Hear what Yahweh says: 3 The Lord Yahweh says this: Disaster is in store for the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets, Israel, are like ruin-haunting jackals! 5 "You have not ventured into the breach; you have not built up the wall round the House of Israel, to hold fast in battle on the Day of Yahweh. 6 Theirs are futile visions and false predictions, who say: A prophecy from Yahweh, when Yahweh has not sent them; yet they expect their words to come true. 7 Have not the visions you see been futile, have not the predictions you make been false, although you say: A prophecy of Yahweh, when I have not spoken? 8 "Very well, the Lord Yahweh says this: Because of your futile words and false predictions, I am now against you -- declares Lord Yahweh. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who have futile visions and give false predictions; they will not be admitted to the council of my people, their names will not be entered in the roll of the House of Israel, they will not set foot on the soil of Israel; and they will know that I am the Lord Yahweh.
​

Is this true? Can you use this to judge the prophets who speak today?

If you notice, the instruction makes mention of adding nothing to it and taking nothing away. The question "can this test be relied upon?" is ill-founded, because the command is a two-sided coin: it is likely to be misapplied by those who do not know the true God, and may even be used in justifying the punishment of those who do. In the case of the prophets, I can't recall any examples of them enforcing this rule by their own efforts, but that may have been due to a lack of the necessary authority.

 

[KingCrimson250]

The discernment in the old testament passages was the discernment of checking the content of what was said. If the prophet encouraged false worship then that prophet was false. If the prophet predicted something which did not happen then that prophet was false. If the prophet spoke false words of assurance which failed then that prophet was false.

For us the task is as easy. It ought to be even more easy since we have the Holy Spirit to lead us.

God bless.

I'm not convinced.


I believe that it can be easy, certainly. If someone were to stand up and say "Jesus Christ is a crocodile-god who demands human sacrifice!" then yes, we can safely condemn that as false teaching. But as things get more nuanced, lines become more difficult to draw. What of the evangelical gatekeepers, who claim that Rome, the Eastern church, and mainline Protestantism are all false teachers? Surely they are not correct in such a judgement. What about, for example, differing eschatological views? Surely they cannot all be correct, which means, therefore, that most (if not all) of them are false teachings. How are we to discern which is false and which is not?


The other issue that I struggle with is your contention that we can tell by false prophecies and false assurances - agreed, but the problem is that these things can only be determined in hindsight, at which point declaring it a false teaching is of questionable value.

 

[ananda]

Consider these words from scripture ...

Deuteronomy 13:1-6
​

Can this test be relied upon and can it be applied now?

And consider these words from God ...

Jeremiah 23:14-16
​

Can the words spoken by Jeremiah be relied upon and can they be applied now?

And then there is this, give thought to these words from God ...

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NJB
​

Can you rely upon the words above and can they be trusted now as they were in the past?

Finally consider these words from God ...

Ezekiel 13:1-9 NJB
​

Is this true? Can you use this to judge the prophets who speak today?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Unfortunately - in my experience - most "believers" today (or in years past) don't care to apply these commandments or heed these warnings anymore.

 

[Nanopants]

By the way, Peter would have most likely been well aware when he reiterated the command, having witnessed his Lord being crucified in a like manner.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm not convinced.


I believe that it can be easy, certainly. If someone were to stand up and say "Jesus Christ is a crocodile-god who demands human sacrifice!" then yes, we can safely condemn that as false teaching. But as things get more nuanced, lines become more difficult to draw. What of the evangelical gatekeepers, who claim that Rome, the Eastern church, and mainline Protestantism are all false teachers? Surely they are not correct in such a judgement. What about, for example, differing eschatological views? Surely they cannot all be correct, which means, therefore, that most (if not all) of them are false teachings. How are we to discern which is false and which is not?

I see where you are coming from but I wonder if people who teach an error are acting as prophets when they do so? If they simply say,

"The bible tells us such-and-such and the Catholic, Orthodox, and many main-line-Protestant bodies teach what-not which contradicts such-and-such therefore they are false teachers"​

that would not be a prophetic claim, would it? It doesn't have a "Thus says the Lord". It's phrased like an argument in a debate. I would not want to behead or stone somebody for getting it wrong ... but if the person saying it had a reputation in my local Charismatic assembly as a spiritual man who was gifted with prophetic utterances and who had been tested many times and if he had added

"The Lord spoke to me about what-not and he said The bible teaches such-and-such and the Catholic, Orthodox, and many main-line-Protestant bodies teach what-not which contradicts such-and-such therefore they are false teachers"​

that would be a little more serious, no?

The other issue that I struggle with is your contention that we can tell by false prophecies and false assurances - agreed, but the problem is that these things can only be determined in hindsight, at which point declaring it a false teaching is of questionable value.

I see what you are saying. I wonder though, is there any value in declaring a false teaching to be false after the fact? For example, is it useful to say, "Arianism is false and so is Modalism, so be careful not to become one of Jehovah's witnesses and be careful not to believe the things that Oneness Pentecostalism teaches about God's nature and person"?