The proof of the existence of Jesus

[hamba2han]

Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians do not fully realise is that it is none other than the Qur'an which is the proof that he existed.

This is because if the story of Jesus did not really happen, then for what plausible reason could there be for an Arabic scripture to unreservedly proclaim a Jewess named Maryam (Mary) as one of the greatest women who ever lived and name a whole chapter in the Qur'an after her and yet by comparison, not even once mention the name of Amina (ra), the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) within it?

Simple logic therefore dictates that the story of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) must surely have been true for the Arabs to wholeheartedly accept and accord such a high and mighty reverence for them.

 

[tocis]

For many people to believe something it need not be true.

If that were the case, Elvis would still be alive, and a computer virus known as "Good Times" would have wrecked all PCs of the world years ago.

 

[sunrise0]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+3]Surah Maryam[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16. And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad the story of) Maryam (Mary), when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18. She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allâh) from you, if you do fear Allâh." [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]19. (The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son." [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]20. She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?" [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]21. He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allâh): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allâh), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allâh).' " [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]22. So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (i.e. Bethlehem valley about 4-6 miles from Jerusalem). [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!" [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]24. Then [the babe 'Iesa (Jesus) or Jibrael (Gabriel)] cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you; [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25. "And shake the trunk of date-palm towards you, it will let fall fresh ripe-dates upon you." [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]26. "So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'" [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]27. Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing). [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]28. "O sister (i.e. the like) of Hârûn (Aaron) [not the brother of Mûsa (Moses), but he was another pious man at the time of Maryam (Mary)]! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman." [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]29. Then she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]30. "He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;" [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]31. "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live." [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]32. "And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]33. "And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!" [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]34. Such is 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute). [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]35. It befits not (the Majesty of) Allâh that He should beget a son [this refers to the slander of Christians against Allâh, by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh]. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is. [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]36. ['Iesa (Jesus) said]: "And verily Allâh is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path. (Allâh's Religion of Islâmic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets)." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]37. Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about 'Iesa (Jesus)], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allâh] from the meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire). [/FONT]
​

 

[HouseApe]

Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians do not fully realise is that it is none other than the Qur'an which is the proof that he existed.

This is because if the story of Jesus did not really happen, then for what plausible reason could there be for an Arabic scripture to unreservedly proclaim a Jewess named Maryam (Mary) as one of the greatest women who ever lived and name a whole chapter in the Qur'an after her and yet by comparison, not even once mention the name of Amina (ra), the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) within it?

Simple logic therefore dictates that the story of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) must surely have been true for the Arabs to wholeheartedly accept and accord such a high and mighty reverence for them.

Please note that Muhammad lived some 500 years after the death of Jesus. By that time, Christianity had been the official religion of the Roman empire for around 150 years. Arabs lived in the shadow of the empire, and spent most of their time trading with the wealthy empire. I would be confident that Muhammad, being a trader, spent much time learning the tenants of Christianity and Judaism in the many places he visited. Therefore, I don't think your theory holds.

 

[hamba2han]

The point that I am trying to make is that there is really no reason at all why the Arabs at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) should accept a Jewess and her son Jesus (pbuh) to a positon of reverence if their existence is in any way doubted.

One only needs to look at the way Jewish scriptures refer to Ishmael (pbuh) in such disparaging and insulting terms like "wild beast of a man" in order to understand why this is so.

With this in mind, it therefore does not make any sense whatsoever for the descendants of Ishmael to willingly accept Maryam (ra) and her son to such an exalted position in the Qur'an if there was even a tiny element of doubt in their minds regarding the truth of their existence.

While the scriptures of the Jews can be accused as having an agenda to promote the ascendancy of the Jewish race in God's plan, there is no way that the Qur'an can ever be considered as such.

Therefore, when the Qur'an unreservedly proclaims a Jewess and her son with such reverence, then it surely means that the Qur'an carries a lot more weight in ascertaining the existence of Jesus (pbuh) than the scriptures and writings of the Jews and early Christians.

 

[arunma]

Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians do not fully realise is that it is none other than the Qur'an which is the proof that he existed.

This is because if the story of Jesus did not really happen, then for what plausible reason could there be for an Arabic scripture to unreservedly proclaim a Jewess named Maryam (Mary) as one of the greatest women who ever lived and name a whole chapter in the Qur'an after her and yet by comparison, not even once mention the name of Amina (ra), the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) within it?

Simple logic therefore dictates that the story of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) must surely have been true for the Arabs to wholeheartedly accept and accord such a high and mighty reverence for them.

No, I think not. Let us go, for a moment, with the false assumption that Jesus did not exist. The Quran would assert the existence of the Gospel for the same reason that Aeschylus' The Oresteia asserted the existence of King Agamemnon (who was introduced centuries earlier in Homer's The Iliad). Clearly Mohammad would have gathered material from the Gospel accounts. So again, Islamic apologetics fail.

Almost every historian, including the non-Christian ones, believes that Jesus Christ genuinely existed. Give me one good reason to believe the Quran, written six hundred years after the fact, over the Gospels, which according to the most liberal estimates were written 80 years after the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[0rion]

Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians do not fully realise is that it is none other than the Qur'an which is the proof that he existed.

This is because if the story of Jesus did not really happen, then for what plausible reason could there be for an Arabic scripture to unreservedly proclaim a Jewess named Maryam (Mary) as one of the greatest women who ever lived and name a whole chapter in the Qur'an after her and yet by comparison, not even once mention the name of Amina (ra), the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) within it?

Simple logic therefore dictates that the story of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) must surely have been true for the Arabs to wholeheartedly accept and accord such a high and mighty reverence for them.

Most likely Mohammed just repeated the stories he heard about Jesus , so his claims aren't really good evidence. For that we could as well use John Smith's apparition of Jesus to prove that Jesus is GOD. Would you want to do that?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Therefore, when the Qur'an unreservedly proclaims a Jewess and her son with such reverence, then it surely means that the Qur'an carries a lot more weight in ascertaining the existence of Jesus (pbuh) than the scriptures and writings of the Jews and early Christians.

Our brother Paul also makes for a solid case for Jesus Christ.

Gala 4: 25 for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and doth correspond to the Jerusalem that now [is], and is in servitude with her children, 26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is the mother of us all, .....30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman;' [Genesis 21:10/Revelation 11:2 "court of the Preists]

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

And not only does the Qur'an affirm Jesus, but the Baha'i scriptures do likewise!

So there are at least two other religions explicitly endorsing Jesus!

And this is before we consider the Zoroastrian prophecies which the Magi followed in order to find the Christ child--clearly yet another endorsement, albeit in advance.

Best,

Bruce

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi!

And not only does the Qur'an affirm Jesus, but the Baha'i scriptures do likewise!

So there are at least two other religions explicitly endorsing Jesus!

And this is before we consider the Zoroastrian prophecies which the Magi followed in order to find the Christ child--clearly yet another endorsement, albeit in advance.

Best,

Bruce

But the Jews and their Talmud fail to confirm Jesus as their Messiah.

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place/topon <5117> and nation."

Reve 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his messengers fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his messengers fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place/topoV <5117> found for them in heaven any longer.

 

[hamba2han]

>>>Most likely Mohammed just repeated the stories he heard about Jesus , so his claims aren't really good evidence.<<<

If 3 brothers went to the same school and was taught by the same teacher at different time intervals, would it then come as a big surprise if all 3 of them ended up with similar notes?

Likewise, why is it so hard for Christians to believe that Muhammad can have somewhat similar notes to Moses and Jesus (pbut) when all of them did indeed attend the same 'class' and were taught by the same 'teacher'?

 

[Fuzzy]

There are extrabiblical proofs for Jesus' existence, many of which predate the Quran. The elevation from
charismatic cult leader to "Son of God" or "Divine
Prophet" is where the proof becomes...suspected.

Does the Quran prove something, or does it perpetuate
a legend? (shrug) It's a matter of faith.

 

[Asimov]

Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians do not fully realise is that it is none other than the Qur'an which is the proof that he existed.

This is because if the story of Jesus did not really happen, then for what plausible reason could there be for an Arabic scripture to unreservedly proclaim a Jewess named Maryam (Mary) as one of the greatest women who ever lived and name a whole chapter in the Qur'an after her and yet by comparison, not even once mention the name of Amina (ra), the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) within it?

Simple logic therefore dictates that the story of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) must surely have been true for the Arabs to wholeheartedly accept and accord such a high and mighty reverence for them.

So...when was the Quran written?

 

[hamba2han]

The question is not whether or not there are extrabilical evidence which predate the Qur'an, it is more about how convincing these evidences are.

Considering all the disparaging and often downright insulting things that is written in Jewish scriptures about Ishmael (pbuh), let no one underestimate the significance of the descendants of Ishmael at the tme of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) willingly accepting and according a Jewess and her son to a position of such a high and mighty reverence in the Qur'an.

This certainly is not a small matter for it has a truly enormous significance and if anyone disputes the truth of the existence of Jesus (pbuh), then they really do need to explain why the descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) are wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even a slight possibility that they did not exist in history.

 

[Fuzzy]

The question is not whether or not there are extrabilical evidence which predate the Qur'an, it is more about how convincing these evidences are.

Predating the Qur'an is important, as chronicles which
can be dated closer to the event in question have a
greater likelihood of eye witnesses.

Most of the sources I know of are Roman, and viewed
early Christianity as a subset of Judaism. And these
sources focused on the historical existence. Again,
Jesus as "Divine Prophet" or "Divine Being" are matters
of faith and belief, which is up to the individual.

This certainly is not a small matter for it has a truly enormous significance and if anyone disputes the truth of the existence of Jesus (pbuh), then they really do need to explain why the descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) are wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even a slight possibility that they did not exist in history.

To lend credence to the claims of the Qur'an as
a message from God. By citing an established and
respected lineage, it lends prestige to later efforts.
The Mormons or the Unifcation Church would be more
modern examples.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by hamba2han
Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians do not fully realise is that it is none other than the Qur'an which is the proof that he existed.

How come the Jews don't have it in their Talmud then if He was their Messiah?

I mean, you would think without a Temple to sacrifice in they would wonder if perhaps the LORD had something to do with it.


JOHN 5:45 "Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you -- Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

 

[hamba2han]

"To lend credence to the claims of the Qur'an as
a message from God.", you say?

I suggest that you read up on the history of the early Muslims at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), particularly with the struggle and sacrifices that they had to endure when they were forced to migrate to Medina from Makkah.

For anyone to suggest that they were prepared to sacrifice their lives, their family and all their property just for the sake of accepting a religion which teaches them to revere a Jewess and her son without them really believing that they actually existed... well, it is a quite incredible assertion.

 

[Fuzzy]

"To lend credence to the claims of the Qur'an as
a message from God.", you say?
...
For anyone to suggest that they were prepared to sacrifice their lives, their family and all their property just for the sake of accepting a religion which teaches them to revere a Jewess and her son without them really believing that they actually existed... well, it is a quite incredible assertion.

If the references to Maryam and her son were excluded, would the Qur'an be less valid?
Do they enhance the role of Mohammed as the
latest Prophet of God?

I'll guess that you'll say no, which is fine. If Maryam's in there, and
is tangential or a corollary to the larger message, fine. But if Maryam
and her son HAVE to be in there, to give support to the stance, then
the Qur'an doesn't really prove Jesus' role as Divine Messenger (or God Incarnate),
it's just another testimony that has to be taken on faith.

And faith is fine.

 

[KomissarSteve]

Actually, the good news that most Christians do not fully realise is that it is none other than the Qur'an which is the proof that he existed.

I take it you have yet to peruse the works of Josephus, a non-Christian Jewish historian who lived several centuries before Mohammed?

 

[hamba2han]

This is not about convincing those who already believe in Jesus (pbuh) about the truth of his existence, it is about providing convincing proof to the many doubters who do not believe that he actually lived.

Like I mentioned in my original post, considering that there are many who doubt and question whether there really was such a historical figure named Jesus, it is obvious that Christians have not been able to do this by relying on Jewish and early Christians accounts.

This is where there is a big difference between the faith of Christians and Muslims for unlike Christians, Muslims do not at all rely on Jewish scriptures and writings in order to strengthen our own faith and convictions.

For those who doubt or dispute the existence of Jesus (pbuh), then I wish for them to provide a plausible answer to this question which I am asking again:

Considering all the disparaging and often downright insulting things that are written in Jewish scriptures about Ishmael (pbuh), then why are the descendants of Ishmael wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even the slightest possibility that they did not exist in history?