The promise to Abraham

[SonOfGodAlmighty]

Ive been thinking lately about the promises God made to Abraham. What exactly were the promises. Reading the old testament, it seems as if God gave canaan to Abraham and his seed (through the law) for an eternal inheritance. However the new testament states the the seed of Abraham are those in which practice the faith the that he did. Which would mean that literal Israel isnt the chosen people of God, and that the inheritance is still at large? Is Abrahams, and his seed through faith inheritance New Jerusalem? Is the nation of Israel no longer the chosen of God, since they broke convenant, and continue to deny Jesus?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Ive been thinking lately about the promises God made to Abraham. What exactly were the promises. Reading the old testament, it seems as if God gave canaan to Abraham and his seed (through the law) for an eternal inheritance. However the new testament states the the seed of Abraham are those in which practice the faith the that he did. Which would mean that literal Israel isnt the chosen people of God, and that the inheritance is still at large? Is Abrahams, and his seed through faith inheritance New Jerusalem? Is the nation of Israel no longer the chosen of God, since they broke convenant, and continue to deny Jesus?

The seed of Abraham were promised blessings; they were not all to receive the blessing of the land, however. The seed of Jacob were promised the specific blessing of the land.

There is a flaw in your logic here, "Which would mean that literal Israel isn't the chosen people of God". Do you not think there is potential for the faith of Abraham in literal Israel? Why do you feel literal Israel is incapable of faith? Just because we Gentiles become children of Abraham when we walk in faith like father Abraham, does not invalidate the promises regarding the land to the offspring of Jacob. It is the teaching of scripture that a believing Israel will recognize their Messiah and be regathered in faith to their land.

 

[wayseer]

It's not about Faith, or seed, or seeds, of Israel, or Jacob, of the Law, etc .... - it's about God's promise - because of one man's faith. You can read as much or as little into as you wish but in the end you have to accept the story is just that - a story.

 

[SonOfGodAlmighty]

wayseer dont i remember you from the FreeMason thread?

 

[wayseer]

Probably - there are a number of FM threads.

 

[Simonline]

Post deleted

 

[Iosias]

Try Abraham, Israel and the Church by Paul R. Williamson

 

[SummaScriptura]

Try Footsteps of the Messiah: A Study of the Sequence of Prophetic Events by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ive been thinking lately about the promises God made to Abraham. What exactly were the promises. Reading the old testament, it seems as if God gave canaan to Abraham and his seed (through the law) for an eternal inheritance. However the new testament states the the seed of Abraham are those in which practice the faith the that he did. Which would mean that literal Israel isnt the chosen people of God, and that the inheritance is still at large? Is Abrahams, and his seed through faith inheritance New Jerusalem? Is the nation of Israel no longer the chosen of God, since they broke convenant, and continue to deny Jesus?

One of the most disparaged beliefs in Christianity is that the so-called Lost Tribes of Israel aren't lost at all, except to themselves. The Abrahamic promises are twofold, that of race and grace. The promises of wealth and power have never been realized by either the ancient or the modern Jews of 'Israel'. But they have been and continue to be realized by the Christian democracies of the West, most notably the United States and Great Britain over the past two hundred or so years.

The promises of race are called the birthright, and concern material wealth and power. Grace is termed the sceptre promise of rulership that culminates in Christ as "the one to whom it belongs" (Shiloh).

Joseph received the birthright promise when Reuben "defiled his fathers bed". The sceptre promise was given to the tribe of Judah.

When Israel was divided in the days of Jereboam and Rheboam the promises were also separated. The Jews then had no part in the promises of wealth given to Joseph. That is why the Jews have never prospered according to those material promises.

The promises of race were as unconditional as the promise of grace, therefore they have been, are being (or have yet to be) fulfilled, and to the tribe of Joseph principally.

At this point I recommend a much reviled book, written in 1902 by J.H. Allen entitled, "Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright." The book presents the much maligned theory that Britain and America as well as other western democracies are actually the tribes of Israel fulfilling all of the prophecies concerning them at the time of the end. This theory is known as British Israelism.

Copies are still available through Amazon.com.

owg

 

[BrotherDave]

Ive been thinking lately about the promises God made to Abraham. What exactly were the promises. Reading the old testament, it seems as if God gave canaan to Abraham and his seed (through the law) for an eternal inheritance. However the new testament states the the seed of Abraham are those in which practice the faith the that he did. Which would mean that literal Israel isnt the chosen people of God, and that the inheritance is still at large? Is Abrahams, and his seed through faith inheritance New Jerusalem? Is the nation of Israel no longer the chosen of God, since they broke convenant, and continue to deny Jesus?

The Israelites were chosen in the sense that for 2100 years, God worked through Israel to bring us the Bible. The Bible was written principally by Jews. Christ our Savior came out of national Israel. He was given His human nature from the nation of Israel. He was a blood descendant of Abraham and King David, of the tribe of Judah. In that sense, the Israelites were the chosen people. Eternally, the Israelites, the physical Jews, are not chosen. The chosen people are the spiritual Jews, those who trust in the Lord Jesus. Eternally, those who trust Jesus are the elect or the chosen (Eph 1:4-13 ) of God, and they come from every nation of the world. Romans 2:28, 29 ”For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart” Everyone who is a blood descendant of Abraham is a physical Jew. The Jew that God talks about in this passage is the person who has come to trust in the Lord Jesus. (Galatians Chapter 3:29): If someone is Christ’s, it means that he has become saved.

The nation of Israel now stands on the same ground as any Gentile nation. No one has a superior position or advantage over anyone else. The physical Jews are in unbelief and might become saved, if that is the will of God, just as those in Gentile nations are in unbelief and might become saved, if that is the will of God. In Romans Chapter 11, God is talking to the Gentiles about the nation of Israel. Here God underscores the fact that no nation has any superiority or advantage over any other nation (verses 30 to 32).

We can be a Gentile and belong to the Lord Jesus, and then spiritually, we are of the seed of Abraham, that is, of the lineage of Abraham. We are the true Jews, which God speaks of in Romans 2:28 and 29. We are a Jew inwardly. “Circumcision is that of the heart” means that our sins have been cut off. He has saved us and we have inherited the promised land, New Jerusalem which is heaven, the new earth or the kingdom of God (Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22, Rev 21:2).

In Christ’s Service,
David

 

[SummaScriptura]

The Israelites were chosen in the sense that for 2100 years, God worked through Israel to bring us the Bible. The Bible was written principally by Jews. Christ our Savior came out of national Israel. He was given His human nature from the nation of Israel He was a blood descendant of Abraham and King David, of the tribe of Judah. In that sense, the Israelites were the chosen people. Eternally, the Israelites, the physical Jews, are not chosen. The chosen people are the spiritual Jews, those who trust in the Lord Jesus. Eternally, those who trust Jesus are the elect or the chosen (Eph 1:4-13 ) of God, and they come from every nation of the world. Romans 2:28, 29 ”For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart” Everyone who is a blood descendant of Abraham is a physical Jew. The Jew that God talks about in this passage is the person who has come to trust in the Lord Jesus. (Galatians Chapter 3:29): If someone is Christ’s, it means that he has become saved.

The nation of Israel now stands on the same ground as any Gentile nation. No one has a superior position or advantage over anyone else. The physical Jews are in unbelief and might become saved, if that is the will of God, just as those in Gentile nations are in unbelief and might become saved, if that is the will of God. In Romans Chapter 11, God is talking to the Gentiles about the nation of Israel. Here God underscores the fact that no nation has any superiority or advantage over any other nation (verses 30 to 32).

We can be a Gentile and belong to the Lord Jesus, and then spiritually, we are of the seed of Abraham, that is, of the lineage of Abraham. We are the true Jews, which God speaks of in Romans 2:28 and 29. We are a Jew inwardly. “Circumcision is that of the heart” means that our sins have been cut off. He has saved us and we have inherited the promised land, New Jerusalem which is heaven, the new earth or the kingdom of God (Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22, Rev 21:2).

In Christ’s Service,
David

I'd say you've pretty well summed up the dominant perspective on this within Christendom for the past 2,000 years. I have a few thought-provoking questions for you along these lines...

You say,

<snip>Everyone who is a blood descendant of Abraham is a physical Jew.<snip>

Do you really believe this? If you do, the sons of Ishmael and Esau are Jews, correct? If you want to alter this view, are you willing to concede that perhaps the spiritual descendants of Abraham are not spiritual Jews, either?

Wasn't the criteria for being a Jew physically, being a descendant of Jacob? Wasn't Jacob, and not Esau the inheritor of his fathers' covenant(s) with God?

 

[billwald]

Should be obvious that the the spiritual promises are unconditional and eternal. The material promises are conditional and temporal. The people in the eternal covenant in every dispensation are generally a sub set of the people in the unconditional covenant. That is why there are saved (elect) and unsaved (reprobate) people in every local congregation. How can it be any other way?

 

[cyberlizard]

if God broke his promise to the children of Israe'el He is not entirely trustworthy.

Sure Isra'el broke the covenant almost immediately (in making the golden calves), but what did God do in His abundant mercy.... He gave it again, once more written by 'the finger of God'.


Steve

there seems to be a lot of replacement teaching on this thread.

remember we are children of Abraham because we walk by putting our faith in practice (faith is a verb in Hebrew - the righteous/just will live by faithing (habakkuk)).

Was Abraham, a member of the covenant people or gentile when God made His promise to him. I recall he was a gentile, but even later he circumcised himself (and all the males in his household), to show that they were all now partakers of the promise. Circumcision served a twofold purpose, one to show identification into the covenant and two to show in their flesh the anticipation of the coming seed (the messiah - (this is the standard Jewish understanding from the rabbahs etc)).


Paul's argument is not that we replace israel or become a spiritual Israel, but he focuses on key passages and talks a lot about the remnant with Israel, thr remnant of faith. Paul's doctrine is that gentile believers are like Abraham; accepted into this remnant, not by an act of the flesh, but by faithing. We are like the father of the faith, Abraham. We become grafted into the tree of faith by faithing, whereas unbelieving Israelites are cut off from the tree (Romans 11).


Steve

p.s. in closing can anyone show me where the new testament writings explicitly speak of 'spiritual israel'.

 

[SummaScriptura]

if God broke his promise to the children of Israe'el He is not entirely trustworthy.

Sure Isra'el broke the covenant almost immediately (in making the golden calves), but what did God do in His abundant mercy.... He gave it again, once more written by 'the finger of God'.


Steve

there seems to be a lot of replacement teaching on this thread.

remember we are children of Abraham because we walk by putting our faith in practice (faith is a verb in Hebrew - the righteous/just will live by faithing (habakkuk)).

Was Abraham, a member of the covenant people or gentile when God made His promise to him. I recall he was a gentile, but even later he circumcised himself (and all the males in his household), to show that they were all now partakers of the promise. Circumcision served a twofold purpose, one to show identification into the covenant and two to show in their flesh the anticipation of the coming seed (the messiah - (this is the standard Jewish understanding from the rabbahs etc)).


Paul's argument is not that we replace israel or become a spiritual Israel, but he focuses on key passages and talks a lot about the remnant with Israel, thr remnant of faith. Paul's doctrine is that gentile believers are like Abraham; accepted into this remnant, not by an act of the flesh, but by faithing. We are like the father of the faith, Abraham. We become grafted into the tree of faith by faithing, whereas unbelieving Israelites are cut off from the tree (Romans 11).


Steve

p.s. in closing can anyone show me where the new testament writings explicitly speak of 'spiritual israel'.

Steve, good post. I agree 100%.

 

[BrotherDave]

You say,
Do you really believe this? If you do, the sons of Ishmael and Esau are Jews, correct? If you want to alter this view, are you willing to concede that perhaps the spiritual descendants of Abraham are not spiritual Jews, either?

Wasn't the criteria for being a Jew physically, being a descendant of Jacob? Wasn't Jacob, and not Esau the inheritor of his fathers' covenant(s) with God?

There was no Jewish nation before Abraham, a descendant of Shem. This is why the Jews today believe their line goes back to Abraham. The first 2 sons of Abraham were very important. One was Isaac the progenitor of the nation of Israel which included his son Jacob.

The other was Ishmael who along with Esau (son of Isaac) became the progenitors of the Arab nations (Iraq, Iran, Palestinians...). Both are from Abraham and this is the cause of all the conflict over there. Each believes the land is theirs. But this is not what is important. God loved Jacob (Ro 9:13) and not Esau. Here Jacob is a picture of the body of believers; all those God chooses to save. These are the ones God made his promise to. God did not break his promise. The spiritual Jews are descendants of Abraham. But not every Jew is a spiritual Jew.

In Galatians 3:26-29 God is indicating that each and every believer whether physically a Jew or a Gentile is spiritually a descendant of Abraham, thus making him spiritually a Jew. This is understood when we recognize that those who believe are sons of God.

Romans 8:14:”For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

As sons of God we are sons of Christ who in His flesh was the son of David, the son of Abraham (Matthew 1:1). Since Christ is the son of David who was a Jew, and we are sons of Christ, then we who are saved are also sons of David, and therefore, we are also Jews. This is why Jesus identifies the believers with the temple, with Israel, with Jerusalem, and with Judah. These are all entities entirely identified with Jesus.

 

[BrotherDave]

remember we are children of Abraham because we walk by putting our faith in practice (faith is a verb in Hebrew - the righteous/just will live by faithing (habakkuk)).

Faith, belief is a work we do. No one truly believes as God defines belief “with all their heart” until He has saved them by giving them a new heart. After He does this we do good works, we repent and have faith. Then we are a spiritual Jew and truly walk by “putting our faith in practice.” Our faith or belief is not a condition for salvation but a result of salvation.

Paul's argument is not that we replace israel or become a spiritual Israel, but he focuses on key passages and talks a lot about the remnant with Israel, thr remnant of faith. Paul's doctrine is that gentile believers are like Abraham; accepted into this remnant, not by an act of the flesh, but by faithing. We are like the father of the faith, Abraham. We become grafted into the tree of faith by faithing, whereas unbelieving Israelites are cut off from the tree (Romans 11).

As you say, it is not by an act of the flesh that anyone becomes saved. As it is not by what we think we believe or what we say. There is nothing we can do to get ourselves saved. It is only because of the faith of Christ (Gal 2:20) that anyone is saved. He is the faithful one. God chose His elect, Christ was faithful in paying for their sins and as a result the chosen are grafted into the tree of Faith and then they do good works and believe with all their heart.

Unbelievers are cut off. They remain blinded because God has not open their eyes (Ro 11:7, 8) so they do not have faith. No matter what they do or say

p.s. in closing can anyone show me where the new testament writings explicitly speak of 'spiritual israel'.

Who do you think God is referring to in Gal 6:16? Who is in the household of faith (Gal 6:10)? What about those spoken in Rev 7:4?

Christ is the “king of Israel” but not the nation like people of the OT thought (Luke 24:21, Acts1:6). He rules over the kingdom of God made up of everyone that becomes saved– spiritual. Similarly, this is why King Herod wanted to kill Jesus (Matt2). He thought Jesus was going to take over his kingdom because Jesus was to be the king of the Jews and rule over Israel. They did not understand.

The Bible clearly identifies the true believers as Jews in the spiritual sense. That is the reason why, in turn, He identifies them with a temple, Israel, Jerusalem, and Judaea. All of these entities originally were identified only with the Jews. For this reason he refers to his kingdom as the Jerusalem above (Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22) or the Israel of God (Gal 6:16).

 

[SummaScriptura]

There was no Jewish nation before Abraham, a descendant of Shem. This is why the Jews today believe their line goes back to Abraham. The first 2 sons of Abraham were very important. One was Isaac the progenitor of the nation of Israel which included his son Jacob.

The other was Ishmael who along with Esau (son of Isaac) became the progenitors of the Arab nations (Iraq, Iran, Palestinians...). Both are from Abraham and this is the cause of all the conflict over there. Each believes the land is theirs. But this is not what is important. God loved Jacob (Ro 9:13) and not Esau. Here Jacob is a picture of the body of believers; all those God chooses to save. These are the ones God made his promise to. God did not break his promise. The spiritual Jews are descendants of Abraham. But not every Jew is a spiritual Jew.

In Galatians 3:26-29 God is indicating that each and every believer whether physically a Jew or a Gentile is spiritually a descendant of Abraham, thus making him spiritually a Jew. This is understood when we recognize that those who believe are sons of God.

Romans 8:14:&#8221;For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

As sons of God we are sons of Christ who in His flesh was the son of David, the son of Abraham (Matthew 1:1). Since Christ is the son of David who was a Jew, and we are sons of Christ, then we who are saved are also sons of David, and therefore, we are also Jews. This is why Jesus identifies the believers with the temple, with Israel, with Jerusalem, and with Judah. These are all entities entirely identified with Jesus.

Brother Dave, you've missed a critical point, the covenant made by God with Abraham, was later confirmed by God to Isaac and then later it was confirmed by God to Jacob. To be a Jew, one must be descended from Jacob; the only exceptions to this are Abe, Ike and Jake. If you do not hark to Jacob, you are in no way part of spiritual Israel, the Israel of God, nor a Jew inwardly.

 

[Christopher LaRock]

Ive been thinking lately about the promises God made to Abraham. What exactly were the promises. Reading the old testament, it seems as if God gave canaan to Abraham and his seed (through the law) for an eternal inheritance. However the new testament states the the seed of Abraham are those in which practice the faith the that he did. Which would mean that literal Israel isnt the chosen people of God, and that the inheritance is still at large? Is Abrahams, and his seed through faith inheritance New Jerusalem? Is the nation of Israel no longer the chosen of God, since they broke convenant, and continue to deny Jesus?

But doesn't scripture say the Jews would reject the Messiah, and the Gentiles would accept Him?