The problem with the doctrine of perfection

[JonMiller]

I was going to wait until the new discussion forum started to post this, but have felt the urge to post it (I was thinking about it during my 90 minutes in the gym, and for a lot of the time since, and before).

Here is why I think this doctrine is dangerous.

People feel like they need to be perfected. They study the law to determine how to be perfect, and then stay away from temptation and try to follow the law.

This is not beleiving in Jesus Christ. Beleiving in Jesus Christ is beleiving that He will do as He says, that He has the power and will to do it. (even the devil believes in His existence, that gains you nothing)

One of the things He said, is that He will perfect us. He will do it from within, by changing our heart. Maybe some people get there before His second coming, but I doubt it. And it is obviously not necessary (He will never leave nor forsake us).

The problem with the doctrine is that people spend time studying the law, instead of praising Him, worshiping Him, doing service for Him, and, yes, even studying Him. I know adventists, who sit down and study the Bible to figure out how they should be living their life (looking for sins they are commiting). This is wrong!

It is the great lie that we should, or even can, do it ourselves. This is the problem with many other religions (look within to find enlightenment, acheive enlightenment through self denial). You can't make yourself perfect. And by fleeing all temptation (Which isn't sin itself, but you call sin because you aren't perfect and it causes you to sin), you limit the ways that God can use you and place stumbling blocks in front of others.

And the most important thing, is that there is no real change here. There is no change of the heart.

God both convicts of sin, changes our heart so that we want different things than sin, and gives us the power to do as He directs us.

Some testimonies: (personal, this is a warning!)

I use to have a temper. God took that away from me. I don't remember even praying about it... although I recognise that He did it and thank Him for it (and pray that it doesn't return). I use to strike people, really try to hurt them. Now, even in the worst traffic (For example), I have no temper.

I was a pornography addict. I liked it, and while I thought it was wrong for a number of years, after a time I thought there was nothing wrong with it (at least I am not having sex were my thoughts). As I spent more time praising and worshiping Him ,I became adverse to it, and found it disgusting and vile. Now I still had desires for it at times (even while finding it disgusting and vile), and so I prayed (And still pray, and probably will always need to pray here on this earth) to God to save me. And He has.

Both of these I didn't come to by study (my study time has been a bit low, but constant over the years, even when I wasn't attending church). I didn't try to triumph (OK, I did with the pornography, but I failed). I didn't even come to the conclusion that I should be doing differently. Christ changed me, He changed my heart. And if contrary desires still existed within me, He also overcame for me. I had nothing to do with it (except pray, which He also put within me).

And while I spend more time praising and worshiping Him, things that I use to find enjoyable, I now find to be lacking their charm.

Anyways, I could go on.

As in example of the poison of this doctrine, I know a young adventist who, when he feels the call of God, spends his time studying the Bible to see how to live his life. And this isn't the answer, and he ends up drifting away again. I just pray that he doesn't continue in this trap.

It is God who convicts us, changes us, give us strength, and judges us (We shouldn't be judging eachother! Well, I admit I judge murders and rapists a bit). We don't need to be studying the law. Or trying to make ourselves perfect. We just need to trust God (to have faith in Him). He will take care of everything.

JM
(And yes, I know that the law tells us about God. But if we study the law it should be to learn about God, not to learn what we should and should not be doing.)

 

[honorthesabbath]

JM--lol--When a person is convicted of a particular sin they are committing and feel the urge to stop. Who is that doing the urging? Is it that person or the Holy Spirit?

I can tell you that through the lessons of the bible and the SOP--that it is GOD! Because the scriptures make it plain that there is NO GOOD thing that comes out of the natural man. Any prompting for us to forsake our sinning-comes from God.

So JM--let me ask you this. Does God ever STOP urging us to turn from our sins? And if we are able, thru His grace to turn from one sin--why not the next? And the next? And the next? From glory to glory?

JM--as long as we are WILLING to allow God to work His WILL in us--there is NO end to what can be accomplished in us. WE are the ones who put the brakes on--not God. It is our LOVE of self, that prevents total surrender to His will.

I submit to you, that if we have not, in THIS life, yielded ALL to Christ--we will never see eternal life. This is what it takes JM--this is the PRICE for dying to self. Jesus cannot live and work in a divided heart.

This is why the scriptures say that FEW are on the road to life eternal. THIS is why we see so few sanctified lives.

 

[JonMiller]

Trying to forsake our sinning (what we think is our sinning, it may or may not be), without God changing our heart, isn't a good thing.

The issue is that focusing on being perfect, requiring that we be perfect, is a trap. If we focus on Him, He will change you. There isn't anything you need to do, but respond to Him. If we focus on being perfect, we have left the way.. and are wasting our time.

There is nothing we can see in this life, that determines that the life is sanctified.

JM

 

[honorthesabbath]

Trying to forsake our sinning (what we think is our sinning, it may or may not be), without God changing our heart, isn't a good thing.

JM

Not only that--it is an IMPOSSIBLE thing. This is the meaning of my whole post above.

JM--'with GOD ALL things are possible', but with man--it is NOT.

The bible makes it clear--when we yield heart-mind-and soul to Christ--we are a NEW creature. Not a MODIFIED one--a brand NEW being. "BEHOLD ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW".

Do you recall EGW lamenting the fact that in her day the churches were baptizing unconverted ppl? Do you think it is any different today? I don't.

So again--I will repeat. Very few have actually been truly converted and therefore very few lives are being sanctified.

Before I forget--let's remember this warning...

2Tim 1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Folks--this is describing the CHURCH! Notice verse 5, it says 'form of godliness', but denying the power. The power to do what? The power to overcome SELF. How do we over come self? By DYING to it. How do we know they havn't done this?

By the descriptions of their actions in the preceeding lines,ie. 'boasters, proud,heady--etc. All selfish human traits. In other words, church members who 'think' they are saved, but are not. "By their FRUITS you shall know them".

JM--works don't save us-but the works produced by us--tell who possesses us. And as EGW says, it's not the occassional mess up that we may do that judges us--but the everyday, continual motivation of the heart. Who owns our hearts? That is what every one who claims the name of Christ must ask themselves.

 

[JonMiller]

But then why say we must become perfect? We don't.

We just need to beleive in Christ.

Otherwise you get people who focus on the wrong thing. Who think that they should become perfect. And instead of focusing on Christ, they focus on the law.

Instead of having their heart changed, they focus on changing their actions.

And if you are studying the Bible, and think you find something in there, then yeah... it could be you or the Holy Spirit. It doesn't have to be God. This is if you have the attitude that you need to be perfect.

On the other hand, if you are just focused on Christ, then you know that any urges within yourself isn't your own doing (trying to follow that broken thing that descended from Adam), but is the new creation of Christ within you.

The issue is the attitude. Not whether we can become perfect before His coming (I doubt that any will, but it really doesn't matter to me).

Note I am not saying that none will be perfect before His coming, although I don't think we can be without new bodies (I think that we have sin hardwired into us). I am saying that the doctrine of perfection, which causes people to worry about it, is a deadly poison. And we should cast off this trap, just like that of the immortality of the soul.

JM

 

[honorthesabbath]

But then why say we must become perfect? We don't.

We just need to beleive in Christ.

Otherwise you get people who focus on the wrong thing. Who think that they should become perfect. And instead of focusing on Christ, they focus on the law.

Instead of having their heart changed, they focus on changing their actions.

JM

Jm--yes we DO have become perfect. But it is NOT our doing--it is His.

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[JonMiller]

That is perfect in your good works. Without Him the 'good' works we did wouldn't be good.

I agree that we will be made perfect. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that we will be made so before His coming.

Additionally, it wouldn't matter if it did... why do we need to concern ourselves with it? It isn't in our hands, but in God. It is by concerning ourselvse with it, that we poison others (and often ourselves). Instead of patiently waiting for Christ to work within us, we study and study the law and try to work on our own. And we judge others who are not doing likewise.

JM
(I have done it to.)

 

[NightEternal]

Too many SDA's have a low view of sin. The scope and severity of the problem is totally lost on them, and they assume it is something they can micro-manage and control. They focus on the behavioral sins which are merely the result of our sin condition. We will have our sinful natures until glorification. You could achieve 'victory' over every behavioral sin in your life and you would still be rendered corrupt and sinful because of the inherited nature you hold as a result of the fall of Adam. This 'checklist' theology is very similar to Catholic process theology, whereby the individual is purified slowly, painstakingly, through will-power and determinaiton. They will say that it is 'through Christ's power', but all this really does is poorly disguise the human tendency and desire to play a part in one's salvation. It's all semantics that does nothing to change the fact that Christ's perfect life was lived on our behalf to be imputed to us. This idea that His perfect life was merely an example for us to follow and achieve the same thing is so misguided. That we can 'match' Christ's righteousness and perfection is bordering on blasphemous. It makes a mockery of Christ's free gift of salvation, which has already been secured by Him and offered to us, and renders it something that is always just out of reach, something to be constantly maintained, as your name is written in the Book Of Life and erased 100 times a day every time you commit a behavioral sin and ask for forgiveness. In and out, in and out your name goes, and God forbid you happen to die before you have asked forgiveness for a specific sin, you are lost.

Sound like Good News to anyone? Not me.

The perfection spoken about in the Bible is always Christ and His imputed righteousness. We are considered perfect in God's eyes, because Christ's perfection stands in place of our own.

Of course, many will always call this 'cheap grace' or some other such nonsense or fancy terms they can come up with. I have had to ignore these charges for over 15 years while in the church. You have to just choose to rest in the perfection of Christ and know that you are saved. It is the worst form of spiritual violence to let the legalists in the church fear-monger you into a hopeless, bankrupt treadmill of process theology and see-saw salvation. I want to weep when I see others fall victim to this spiritual abuse and I will never understand why they let them do it.

I obviously do not endorse everything on Dirk Anderson's site, but I agree with him whole-heartedly on this issue of sinless perfection:

http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw66.htm

This insidious doctrine continues to plague the SDA church and it always will. There is nothing that will ever change that. You just have to believe what you know is true in your heart.

I would also highly recommend George Knight's book I Used To Be Perfect. He demolishes this understanding in one fell swoop, because he used to be into the whole sinless perfection thing until he finally turned his back on it and broke free to the blessed freedom of resting in the perfection of Christ:

http://www.allbookstores.com/book/1883925312

Anyhow, we have gone through this merry-go-round on the topic of sinless perfection here at the forum so many times, it is getting redundant. We need to merge all of the related threads and just keep it in one thread, because it's getting ridiculous to have to explain myself over and over again when it is already laid out in other threads.

"The pretension to sinless perfection at any time in this earthly life is the root of spiritual pride and self-righteousness. Salvation by grace alone means that absolute perfection and sinlessness cannot be realized here and now." Edward Heppenstall, a leading Adventist theologian.

 

[OntheDL]

I was going to wait until the new discussion forum started to post this, but have felt the urge to post it (I was thinking about it during my 90 minutes in the gym, and for a lot of the time since, and before).

Here is why I think this doctrine is dangerous.

People feel like they need to be perfected. They study the law to determine how to be perfect, and then stay away from temptation and try to follow the law.

This is not beleiving in Jesus Christ. Beleiving in Jesus Christ is beleiving that He will do as He says, that He has the power and will to do it. (even the devil believes in His existence, that gains you nothing)

One of the things He said, is that He will perfect us. He will do it from within, by changing our heart. Maybe some people get there before His second coming, but I doubt it. And it is obviously not necessary (He will never leave nor forsake us).

The problem with the doctrine is that people spend time studying the law, instead of praising Him, worshiping Him, doing service for Him, and, yes, even studying Him. I know adventists, who sit down and study the Bible to figure out how they should be living their life (looking for sins they are commiting). This is wrong!

It is the great lie that we should, or even can, do it ourselves. This is the problem with many other religions (look within to find enlightenment, acheive enlightenment through self denial). You can't make yourself perfect. And by fleeing all temptation (Which isn't sin itself, but you call sin because you aren't perfect and it causes you to sin), you limit the ways that God can use you and place stumbling blocks in front of others.

And the most important thing, is that there is no real change here. There is no change of the heart.

God both convicts of sin, changes our heart so that we want different things than sin, and gives us the power to do as He directs us.

Some testimonies: (personal, this is a warning!)

I use to have a temper. God took that away from me. I don't remember even praying about it... although I recognise that He did it and thank Him for it (and pray that it doesn't return). I use to strike people, really try to hurt them. Now, even in the worst traffic (For example), I have no temper.

I was a pornography addict. I liked it, and while I thought it was wrong for a number of years, after a time I thought there was nothing wrong with it (at least I am not having sex were my thoughts). As I spent more time praising and worshiping Him ,I became adverse to it, and found it disgusting and vile. Now I still had desires for it at times (even while finding it disgusting and vile), and so I prayed (And still pray, and probably will always need to pray here on this earth) to God to save me. And He has.

Both of these I didn't come to by study (my study time has been a bit low, but constant over the years, even when I wasn't attending church). I didn't try to triumph (OK, I did with the pornography, but I failed). I didn't even come to the conclusion that I should be doing differently. Christ changed me, He changed my heart. And if contrary desires still existed within me, He also overcame for me. I had nothing to do with it (except pray, which He also put within me).

And while I spend more time praising and worshiping Him, things that I use to find enjoyable, I now find to be lacking their charm.

Anyways, I could go on.

As in example of the poison of this doctrine, I know a young adventist who, when he feels the call of God, spends his time studying the Bible to see how to live his life. And this isn't the answer, and he ends up drifting away again. I just pray that he doesn't continue in this trap.

It is God who convicts us, changes us, give us strength, and judges us (We shouldn't be judging eachother! Well, I admit I judge murders and rapists a bit). We don't need to be studying the law. Or trying to make ourselves perfect. We just need to trust God (to have faith in Him). He will take care of everything.

JM
(And yes, I know that the law tells us about God. But if we study the law it should be to learn about God, not to learn what we should and should not be doing.)

"He that turns away from hearing the law, even his prayers shall be abomination" Proverbs 28:9

Obedience is the condition of God's blessing. If you say you can not overcome sin, then in effect you are denying God's power of transforming you.

Whatever happened to Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through christ who strengthens me?

Holiness is what God requires. We can not do it by our own power. But by Grace, with God all things are possible.

What does all mean?

 

[JonMiller]

Exactly, sin is internal to our nature. And we are given new natures at Christ's return.

I can't overcome sin. Only Christ can do it, within me. Studying the law, fleeing all temptation, nothing really helps. Fleeing temptation just helps you avoid sin (and sometimes it is needed), it isn't overcoming sin.

JM

 

[OntheDL]

Exactly, sin is internal to our nature. And we are given new natures at Christ's return.

JM

Nope. When Christ returns, He brings our rewards with Him. If you haven't changed, you won't have a second chance. "He that is filthy, let him be filthy still".

That indeed is dangerous thinking: you can go to heaven without having acquired the characters of Jesus.

 

[honorthesabbath]

That is perfect in your good works. Without Him the 'good' works we did wouldn't be good.

I agree that we will be made perfect. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that we will be made so before His coming.

Additionally, it wouldn't matter if it did... why do we need to concern ourselves with it? It isn't in our hands, but in God. It is by concerning ourselvse with it, that we poison others (and often ourselves). Instead of patiently waiting for Christ to work within us, we study and study the law and try to work on our own. And we judge others who are not doing likewise.

JM
(I have done it to.)

JM--I think we are both saying the same thing but in different ways.

I totally understand what you are saying. I know from experience what 'legalism' is all about. But let's not thru the baby out with the bath water.

God's word makes it plain that we were created TO DO GOOD WORKS. The fall has interfered with that plan. But it didn't KILL God's plan. He WILL have His way with us as long as we cooperate with Him.

I don't agree with you that we shouldn't be concerned about our behavior, but I also know that behavior is the outward actions of the inward intensions.

What we need to do is ask God each day to show us our inward motives. And believe me--He WILL! And further believe me when I tell you that what you will see will NOT make you happy.

But Jesus reassures us to take heart--for HE has overcome the world.

So JM-if we have the right perspective on this matter, we will realize that we do not have to worry about overcoming sin--anymore than a newborn worries about growing. Just take the nourishment that Jesus offers and the growing takes care of itself.

 

[JonMiller]

Nope. When Christ returns, He brings our rewards with Him. If you haven't changed, you won't have a second chance. "He that is filthy, let him be filthy still".

That indeed is dangerous thinking: you can go to heaven without having acquired the characters of Jesus.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&version=50

Christ gives us His character the moment we accept His gift of grace. However, the sin that plagues us doesn't get removed until His second coming.

JM

 

[OntheDL]

Why would Jesus ask us to be perfect if we don't have to be?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If we can just live the same sinful life as before, then what's the point of being saved? What does Romans 6 say? Can we sin under grace? God forbid.

 

[JonMiller]

Does this change my point that it is only Christ that transforms us? What need is there to study the law then, we dont' need to probe out it's secrets. We don't need to act on what we think it says.

We just need to accept Christ's gift. He will do everything else for us. He will even give us the strength to follow His leading (I am not saying that we can't reject His leading, we can).

And Honor, I expect many who fall under the perfection camp are transformed followers of Christ. The issue is that teaching this doctrine isn't needed, and is worse then not needed, as it is a poison and a stone of burden around the necks of many.

JM

 

[NightEternal]

That text is not referring to flawless, idealized perfection. Another way of rendering it would be 'be merciful and loving as your Father in Heaven is merciful and loving.'

It's talking about the fruits of the spirit in one's life, not some pinnacle of flawless righteousness that must be attained in order to be saved. You cannot just take a text out of context and interpret to say what you want it to say.

We have gone through this before, and I feel like I am always repeating myself.

Why the heck am I bothering with this anyhow, most of you have me on ignore.

Wow, what a great way to undertake online forum dialogue.

Have a ball mjona3.

 

[mva1985]

Why the heck am I bothering with this anyhow, most of you have me on ignore.

Night,

I don't have you on ignore. Yet!

Smile Brother!

 

[sentipente]

One thing is becoming painfully obvious from a number of posts I have been reading. In its zeal to break membership numbers records the church has been much better at indoctrinating its converts than in educating them. It's a pity, really.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed My voice.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

I know a lot of atheists, and honestly, some of them don't ever do anything that I would perceive as "sin" (except maybe working on the Sabbath). One of them, as a matter of fact, is one of the nicest people I've ever met.

They don't really DO anything bad, but they have absolutely no faith in Jesus Christ.

What makes me different from any of my atheist friends? I looked in the mirror of scripture, and found out what sin was.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

I also know from reading scripture that I am not perfect, but I have an Advocate and I can confess my sins and be completely forgiven. That's something my atheist friends do not know, and I pray that they will some day.

When I read that falling away and NOT repenting is like crucifying Christ all over again....it brings change in my heart.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Confession...relying on our Savior to take away our sins. It's something other people do not know, and NEED to know, because that gift is our hope.

Everyone wants a Savior, but not everyone wants a Lord.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I see a wonderful picture of striving for the perfection we are called to attain through Jesus Christ. I also see our hope of confession when we do not. I also see willfully sinning as crucifying Him all over again.

I guess I see a different picture, but I'm not a Pharisee and will not tell you that your way is the wrong way. I won't compare myself to anyone, I can only pray for those that do not know the wonderful power of repentance and confession.

 

[reddogs]

I was going to wait until the new discussion forum started to post this, but have felt the urge to post it (I was thinking about it during my 90 minutes in the gym, and for a lot of the time since, and before).

Here is why I think this doctrine is dangerous.

People feel like they need to be perfected. They study the law to determine how to be perfect, and then stay away from temptation and try to follow the law.

This is not beleiving in Jesus Christ. Beleiving in Jesus Christ is beleiving that He will do as He says, that He has the power and will to do it. (even the devil believes in His existence, that gains you nothing)

One of the things He said, is that He will perfect us. He will do it from within, by changing our heart. Maybe some people get there before His second coming, but I doubt it. And it is obviously not necessary (He will never leave nor forsake us).

The problem with the doctrine is that people spend time studying the law, instead of praising Him, worshiping Him, doing service for Him, and, yes, even studying Him. I know adventists, who sit down and study the Bible to figure out how they should be living their life (looking for sins they are commiting). This is wrong!

It is the great lie that we should, or even can, do it ourselves. This is the problem with many other religions (look within to find enlightenment, acheive enlightenment through self denial). You can't make yourself perfect. And by fleeing all temptation (Which isn't sin itself, but you call sin because you aren't perfect and it causes you to sin), you limit the ways that God can use you and place stumbling blocks in front of others.

And the most important thing, is that there is no real change here. There is no change of the heart.

God both convicts of sin, changes our heart so that we want different things than sin, and gives us the power to do as He directs us.

Some testimonies: (personal, this is a warning!)

I use to have a temper. God took that away from me. I don't remember even praying about it... although I recognise that He did it and thank Him for it (and pray that it doesn't return). I use to strike people, really try to hurt them. Now, even in the worst traffic (For example), I have no temper.

I was a pornography addict. I liked it, and while I thought it was wrong for a number of years, after a time I thought there was nothing wrong with it (at least I am not having sex were my thoughts). As I spent more time praising and worshiping Him ,I became adverse to it, and found it disgusting and vile. Now I still had desires for it at times (even while finding it disgusting and vile), and so I prayed (And still pray, and probably will always need to pray here on this earth) to God to save me. And He has.

Both of these I didn't come to by study (my study time has been a bit low, but constant over the years, even when I wasn't attending church). I didn't try to triumph (OK, I did with the pornography, but I failed). I didn't even come to the conclusion that I should be doing differently. Christ changed me, He changed my heart. And if contrary desires still existed within me, He also overcame for me. I had nothing to do with it (except pray, which He also put within me).

And while I spend more time praising and worshiping Him, things that I use to find enjoyable, I now find to be lacking their charm.

Anyways, I could go on.

As in example of the poison of this doctrine, I know a young adventist who, when he feels the call of God, spends his time studying the Bible to see how to live his life. And this isn't the answer, and he ends up drifting away again. I just pray that he doesn't continue in this trap.

It is God who convicts us, changes us, give us strength, and judges us (We shouldn't be judging eachother! Well, I admit I judge murders and rapists a bit). We don't need to be studying the law. Or trying to make ourselves perfect. We just need to trust God (to have faith in Him). He will take care of everything.

JM
(And yes, I know that the law tells us about God. But if we study the law it should be to learn about God, not to learn what we should and should not be doing.)

Who, is it that holds this "Doctrine of Perfection", this needs to be identified and the appropriate documentation supplied before you can bring it up for discussion........