The problem with prophesy and prophets

[PottersClay]

I have been given the oportunity to teach a class on how to learn if God is speaking, how to properly and responsibly learn how He does (and doesnt) speak, and most importantly, how to avoid falling into the pitfalls that have ended up discredited the prophetic gifts.

This is a phenominal opportunity given the spiritual climate of where I live. I take this responsibility extremely seriously, and along with making sure what is taught is based solidly on scripture, I want to make sure I address the misconceptions, problems, objections and issues that the church (past and present) has with prophesy, prophetic gifts and those who operate in the gifts. I'm hoping you all can help.

What I need is a list of the problems, questions etc that you all have about what I've described above. I have a feeling this will generate a lot of replies (which would be great) so I will need your help to hone in on the issues being raised by listing the problems, questions, objections as bullet points rather than in dialog form.

Thanks!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Modern Prophets
http://www.christianforums.com/t58223





You can and should Prophesy!
http://www.christianforums.com/t89749





Spiritual gifts and the love chapter
http://www.christianforums.com/t89883




Each Spiritual Gift has an Utterance
http://www.christianforums.com/t68618

 

[PottersClay]

I'd like to clarify something about this thread. I am not looking for information on prophesy or the prophetic gifts.

What I'm looking for is people's objections to the prophetic so in the class I'll be teaching, I can point out as many of the misuses, abuses and pitfalls (which include attitudes) that prophetic people have done, and warn them right from the start that these things are not acceptable, and how not to fall into these traps.

I've accumulated my own list, to be sure, but I want as much input as possible so I can cover as many of the problems as I can.

Thanks!

 

[Jim B]

One of the problems re: prophecy/prophets that I feel needs to be honestly faced in churches is the tendency of controlling personalities to exploit the gift to manipulate others.

As John Bevere pointed out in his book, Thus Saith the Lord, everyone who says “Thus saith the Lord” is not speaking for the Lord.

In our city is a woman whose bitterness and judgmental attitude is almost legendary. She often, I am suspecting, seeks to control her church by regular “words from the Lord” and, while she is largely ignored by those who know her best, has still amassed a small following of impressionable, even gullible, young Christians who seek her out for almost every decision. In some cases, her “personal prophetic words” have been devastating to her followers’ finances, marriages, church and social relationships, and emotional well-being. She relishes her role and invariably alienates those who listen to her away from the church and to her points of view. This is very satisfying to her controlling nature but is hurting her church and the lives of those who fall under her influence.

Many true prophets’ gifts are being undermined by this woman who, having experienced her approach to prophecy, have serious doubts about the validity of the gift in others.

Her pastor, despite the problems she creates, refuses to “judge” her prophecies (1 Cor. 14.29) for fear of “quenching” the Spirit and he daily lives with the havoc and disunity she fosters. While he seeks to obey 1 Thess. 5.19-20 - “Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt” - I feel he might be ignoring the following verse (v.21) – “Test everything. Hold on to the good.”

How do you suggest Charismatics deal with such abuse of the prophetic gift?

\o/

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Some basic Rules for Prophesying



If you follow the rules outlined in the word for simple prophesy, you will not make any error so grave that it will do anyone any harm. If you remain in the area of edification, comfort, and exhortation, it will be difficult to stray to far from the perfect will of the Lord. If you are still very new to this, stay away from the big three:


Condemnation
Control
Commanding


(We will cover these and other topics in the next lesson)
Part of the PROPHETIC SCHOOL statement includes the divisions and makeup of man. We teach, as revealed in 1 Thess 5:23, that man is divided into three parts:
"spirit and soul and body..."

It is a rich and wonderful study to look at these parts, and learn the parameters of each.

For the purposes of this study we will look at only a few truths.

Know that you possess a soul. It exercises the mental, emotional, and will aspect of your being.
Know that you possess a spirit. It exercises the spiritual aspects of your being, including: love faith, joy, peace, etc.

Let us look at some very important facts and reasonings that many people miss:

Before you were born again, you were a child of the devil. (John 8:44, Eph 2:1-3)
Therefore the "nature" of your spirit was devilish! (John 8:44, Eph 2:1-3)
If you "walked according to" the inclinations of that devilish nature, you would do horrible things! (Luke 7:20-22) However, your "soul" which is actually a part of your flesh, could be and was taught (trained?) to control your whole self. Through fear and guilt and social pressure, it was able to prevent you from doing the horrible things your fallen spirit would have done if you had listened to it.
Therefore it was actually _good_ for you to walk according to the flesh before you were born again! It certainly did not please God, but the religious and social training of your soul did keep you under control, and shielded the world from the evil nature within. Such is the case with all fallen people today!

But now let us come forward a bit. You are now born again, and have the new creature within you. The old creature that was a child of the devil is gone! That which is in you is he that was created in righteousness and true holiness. We are instructed to walk according to the inclinations of this new righteous spirit. In doing so we will please God. WHICH IS GREAT!

Now the problem:
All of your unregenerate life, you had been trained to walk according to the social and mental training of your soul. Remember this was good back then! We instinctively stayed away from the bad spirit that was in us. NOW we suddenly switch gears, and not only do we want to walk according to the spirit, but we are pulling the rug out from under the soul that served us so well in those days gone by. The soul does not like this. It is emotional, and is saddened. It is logical, and wants to think things through. It is will, and wants to determine and decide everything before acting. It has never walked according to the spirit before, so it really does not know how! You have to train it all over again. You have to renew your mind!

And this brings us to the soulish aspect of prophesying.

If you have not fully renewed your mind, and learned how to walk by the leadings of your recreated spirit, the soul is going to throw up barriers to your prophesying. It is afraid of giving control to the spirit, and so will resist the surrender. This is normal. The degree and manner to which you are restricted is determined by your personal psychological make-up.

If you are an emotional person who acts upon your emotions a great deal, you will find that you will not be able to prophesy without an "emotional charge". This is not good, because you will find that you may have to work yourself up into an emotional frenzy before you can release your prophesy! This ultimately leads to the "wide eyed" image most people have of prophesiers. You need to train your soul and emotions. You do not need the help of emotions to prophesy! You can stand there as cool as a cucumber and speak in a calm and confident voice. You prophesy according to the level of your faith, not the level of your emotions.
It is also true that powerful emotions will color your prophesies with exaggerations. No... the recipient of your prophecy will not sit at the right hand of Jesus in the judgement, and it is unlikely that the recipient will ever walk on water or throw a mountain into the sea. Brother Smith is not going to be the greatest Apostle of all time. Such prophetic exaggerations are straight out of the emotionally charged good intentions of the soul... but they are wrong.
There is also a corner of our soul that thinks we need to "act" a bit frenzied, or scream out our prophesy _in order to gain legitimacy in the minds of the congregation_. This is Not needed.

If you are a cool , logical person (as I am) who needs proof and reason before you act, you may find yourself in a struggle to give up control to your spirit. If we had given the spirit sway in the pre-new creature days, then it would have done and said some very illogical (and bad!) things. The soul still wants to verify and legitimize all that comes out the mouth. Not possible with prophecy! You have to get that logical mind under control with a few thousand scriptures and a bunch of teaching tapes. It is OK to be logical. But put that logic to work in Bible study. Learn, categorize, cross reference. One of the first things I did after I became born again was to learn the Word. I had a half dozen Bibles all marked up with colored pens. I did not even look at TV for years. I will give you a list of some excellent books to get and learn. Read all the time! Learn learn learn! The only way to bring the logical mind under control, is to get it to work for and with you. You cannot shut it down, so get it to be your ally rather than your enemy!
There is tendency among those who are "logical" and "intellectual" to be wordy and long winded. The soul is a child, is used to control, and wants attention. It seeks approval and it does have an "ego" that wants to be the best. So it will want to speak high, lofty, and long. This can be bad because the spiritual message can get lost in the volume and altitude of words. It is always better to speak short rather than long, and simply rather than complex. Shoot for the edification of the people you are talking to, not the puffing up of your own ego.

There are therefore two forces in action here. There is the presence of a word of the spirit within, "constrained" to come out. And there is the soulish (emotions and logic) "restraining" of the spirit. This "constraining" and "restraining" is a battle that must be won by the spirit if you are to prophesy and prophesy effectively.

This friction makes for some difficult is in both content and delivery of your word.

If you find you have to get "worked up" before you can deliver your prophecy, then your emotions are coming into play. Even when the prophecy is delivered, the delivery may be strained, and broken. Very difficult for the listeners to subsume. You may try and rush through the prophecy as fast as you can... no-one will catch a word of it. The prophesier may seem very troubled while delivering the word. Trying to deliver a word of edification while wailing at the top of one's lungs is counterproductive to say the least. People will go away more troubled than ever!

Often the prophesier will use excessive emotions to overcome the soulish barrier to prophesying.

Exercise:
Develop a syntax while speaking and praying tongues. Speak as if you are speaking in English. Speak in calm and even tones. Of course even English has variations in syntax, so do not try and speak like a robot. Try and sense the tone of the message, and speak the message in line with that tone. If it is exhortational, then speak the message as if you were pleading with someone, and calling on them to go on to better things. If the tone of the prophesy is that of edification, then speak with confidence and "brightness". If the tone is comfort, them speak as if you were comforting someone who is suffering, with a lot of compassion and understanding in your voice. Pray in tongues as if you were talking to someone.
When you sing in tongues, or prophesy in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs unto the Lord, be sure to add the melody. The action of singing these songs in measured time is training your spirit and soul to work together and speak in a real rhythm. This is done in private, and you can do this as often as you will. The more you speak, pray, and sing in the spirit while in your private life, the easier it will be to do the same in public. If you find that you have problems talking yourself into prophesying, then the logical area of your soul is likely coming into play. This has some tell tale signs. Once you do talk yourself into the delivery, it may be halting and strained. It may seem you are searching for the correct words sometimes, and the syntax will be uneven. Your "I am the boss" soul wants to edit each word for content. The logical area of the mind cannot possible know or understand what the spirit is forming, and so there is going to be conflict. As with emotions, the best way to overcome this is through tongues

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The 3 "C"s



First let us look at what we should not do with simple prophecy

Condemnation:

It is the perfect will of God for us to overcome the world by faith. By definition, condemnation destroys faith. It causes one to hide from the face of God rather than seek it. Condemnation will do the exact opposite of what is needed and the desired end. The method God desires to use is edification, comfort, and exhortation. This instills faith in the individual to overcome the world. We overcome the world by faith.


Control::o
It is the perfect will of God that we receive guidance while in personal communion with Him. God may use a prophetic word to confirm. But I am very suspicious of any word telling me to do something from "out of the blue". You always get in trouble if you try and use prophecy to manipulate or control peoples actions by fear or intimidation.

Commanding:
It is the perfect will of God to use exhortation to lead his people. Exhortation is different from commanding in that it takes the form of an empathy statement. "Let us go on.." "Let us approach...". The phase "let us" is inclusive to the prophesier! Do not exhort anyone to do something that could not be true to yourself also.

Also;

Prediction:
We have shown that simple prophecy does not include this function. Simple prophecy is for edification, comfort, and exhortation only. Prediction only comes via the "gift of prophecy" or when the Word of Wisdom is in manifestation.




Beyond this, I will make you a promise. If you prophesy, you will make mistakes. You will mispronounce words. You will overspeak: that is you will inflect ideas into the word. You may use excessive emotion. You may even miss it altogether and speak out of your soul instead of your spirit. But if you stay away from the areas mentioned above, you will not make any error so serious that it will do anyone harm. As you develop spiritually, you will begin to know when you miss it (the spirit will tell you, in no uncertain terms!), and will be able to correct it.



Most people look at prophecy for what it does in the natural. It is great to receive a "word" from the spirit of Christ! We want to receive direction and guidance in our lives, and prophecy seems to be the answer. We are disappointed if a prophecy does not include some kind of revelation about ourselves or some direction or guidance. We need to understand that prophecy is primarily for our spirits. It is meant to edify, comfort, and exhort our spirits. Our minds will benefit, certainly. But do not be disappointed if you do not always receive some dramatic, earth shaking revelation! Remember that the spirit is going to give you what you need, not always what you want, and rarely what your flesh needs or wants. Therefore, as a prophesier, realize that your prophecies will not always be some deep and eloquent pronouncement of hidden truth. It will more often be a word that is heavily phrased with Biblical phraseology:

"Be therefore led by my spirit, and conditioned by my truth..."
"Let my word reign in you as the wind reigns the sky..."
"Thou art a tree by the waters, and a vine in the good earth..." You can see scriptural coloring in these prophesies. They are not telling you who to marry, where to work, or to go and raise someone from the dead. They are meant to go into your spirit and build up your faith. _They are the mainstay of your prophetic diet_, and are intended to help you grow gradually as a child would grow. When you prophesy, this will be 90% of what you will produce. The other 10% will be influenced by the gifting the Holy Spirit has given you:
My gifting is the Word of Wisdom, so some of my prophesies will include predictions about the future, revelations about the what and why of present and past events, and revelations about doctrine and teaching. This prophecy can by authenticated with "thus saith the Lord".
A person with the Word of Knowledge will be very powerful when prophesying, because he will be able to know and reveal the truth of an individuals heart and mind. This gift _can_ give direction and guidance and can be authenticated with "thus saith the Lord".
A person with discerning of spirits will be able to see into the spirit world and tell via prophesy what he is seeing. He may then speak forth and cast out any evil spirit he may see, and do so with "in the name of Jesus". Miracles, Faith, and gifts of healings are very similar in their prophetic deliverance. A person with "Faith" will use prophesying to speak forth the manifestation, which some refer to as the "long term", miracle. God spoke forth creation by faith, and all things are holding together and exist because of this manifestation! We have seen very little of this as yet, and when we do, it (along with miracles and healings) will change the way the world looks at Christianity. Apostles and evangelists possess these giftings, as well as some individuals. When these are manifested via prophesying, it is very much like the Biblical model: "Be thou picked up, and cast into the sea", "Let there be light", "arise, and take up thy bed" etc..
What is important here, is to realize that these gifts are manifested via prophesying! 1 Cor 12 says that we _all_ have gifts. YOU ARE LOADED FOR BEAR! But if you do not know how to prophesy, your gift may never manifest! The majority of the time, manifestations require a verbal pronouncement from out of the spirit. Learn, therefore, to prophesy!

 

[kenneth558]

One of the problems re: prophecy/prophets that I feel needs to be honestly faced in churches is the tendency of controlling personalities to exploit the gift to manipulate others.

As John Bevere pointed out in his book, Thus Saith the Lord, everyone who says “Thus saith the Lord” is not speaking for the Lord.

In our city is a woman whose bitterness and judgmental attitude is almost legendary. She often, I am suspecting, seeks to control her church by regular “words from the Lord” and, while she is largely ignored by those who know her best, has still amassed a small following of impressionable, even gullible, young Christians who seek her out for almost every decision. In some cases, her “personal prophetic words” have been devastating to her followers’ finances, marriages, church and social relationships, and emotional well-being. She relishes her role and invariably alienates those who listen to her away from the church and to her points of view. This is very satisfying to her controlling nature but is hurting her church and the lives of those who fall under her influence.

Many true prophets’ gifts are being undermined by this woman who, having experienced her approach to prophecy, have serious doubts about the validity of the gift in others.

Her pastor, despite the problems she creates, refuses to “judge” her prophecies (1 Cor. 14.29) for fear of “quenching” the Spirit and he daily lives with the havoc and disunity she fosters. While he seeks to obey 1 Thess. 5.19-20 - “Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt” - I feel he might be ignoring the following verse (v.21) – “Test everything. Hold on to the good.”

How do you suggest Charismatics deal with such abuse of the prophetic gift?

\o/

Very unlikely you'll agree with me on this, Jim B., but I believe this kind of thing is a result of our failure to follow the head coverings teachings in I Cor 11. I'll bet that woman Jezebel will blow a gasket when the church starts coming back around on the head coverings. I'm believing God for revival to that extent.

 

[Trish1947]

I have no problem with the gifts of prophacy, or people exercising this gift within them. However, shouldn't this gift be in control of the Holy Spirit, and not the prophacier? I have seen some really bad experiances of people being told things that were just not the case, it neither edified, nor lifted up their spirit, but caused a major change in their life that was devestating. Both due to someone seeming to always prophacy out of their own heart, and calling this faith. And the one receiving the prophacy as from God, without the knowledge that you dont have to accept everything you hear as the truth without a confirmation, or some revelation to that persons spirit as true. It just seems like there is a rash of mass prophacying going on. I just dont believe that a person that can operate in this gift has to be throwing out these prophacies left and right to just about everyone they come into contact with. And we see alot of that going on. I have operated in this gift once in a while, but I knew, by the Holy Spirits knowledge, that this was what I was supposed to say. But for me it doesnt happen constantly. But I am always available. What do you think.? We're to edify the believers spirit, not make a wreck of their life.

 

[PottersClay]

You're absolutely right, Trish. I think if people with prophetic gifts realized Who it is they're speaking for, they'd be MUCH more careful what they said, when they spoke.

 

[Jim B]

I have no problem with the gifts of prophacy, or people exercising this gift within them. However, shouldn't this gift be in control of the Holy Spirit, and not the prophacier?.

I see it just the opposite way, Trish.

The Bible (1 Cor. 14.29) tells us pretty plainly that Prophecy is under “the speaker’s control” (1 Cor. 14.29 Amplified). The inference is that no one is to exercise any gift and claim that it was beyond his/her control – that is, blame his or her misconduct in this area on the Holy Spirit. I’ve seen a lot of weird stuff and heard a lot of weird “prophecies” in my long Christian lifetime and on those rare occasions where the perpetrator was confronted for their misbehavior, heard them just roll it over on the Holy Spirit. “I couldn’t help myself,” they would say, “I was under the control of the Holy Ghost.”

Which, according to the teaching of Paul, above, is not true. It is always under our control. We are to be wise stewards of God’s gifts and to use them in a decent, orderly, and edifying manner. The woman in the OP will tell you frankly that, being a prophet, she only speaks what God puts in her mouth. It is beyond her control. She even feigns a trance-like condition when she “manifests” (as she like to put it). It is very dramatic and effective tactic when used on impressionable young believers. But I know it is all under her “control” because the Bible says so. She is simply, willfully and maliciously (IMO) misleading people.

I will agree, the Spirit “inspires” utterance. But it is only the inspiration that is inspired, the words are mine. When I have prophesied, I usually only know the first sentence or so of the message but when I open my mouth I somehow find the words. When I am really bold - “If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith,” Romans 12.6 – I can be more specific with the message and can even mention details unknown to me and even names of people I do not know. This is very rare, but it has happened and it always amazes me. But when my faith is weak, my prophecies can be so general that are innocuous, even meaningless. Either way, the gift is in my control. It is up to me how and for what purpose it is used and I will give an account to God of my stewardship.

So, that phrase “in control of the Holy Spirit” spooks me. Every false or misguided prophet will use that phrase as a cover for his or her transgression. I never buy it. The blame for the consequences for a false word lands squarely on their shoulders, not the Holy Spirit’s.

\o/







I have seen some really bad experiances of people being told things that were just not the case, it neither edified, nor lifted up their spirit, but caused a major change in their life that was devestating. Both due to someone seeming to always prophacy out of their own heart, and calling this faith. And the one receiving the prophacy as from God, without the knowledge that you dont have to accept everything you hear as the truth without a confirmation, or some revelation to that persons spirit as true. It just seems like there is a rash of mass prophacying going on. I just dont believe that a person that can operate in this gift has to be throwing out these prophacies left and right to just about everyone they come into contact with. And we see alot of that going on. I have operated in this gift once in a while, but I knew, by the Holy Spirits knowledge, that this was what I was supposed to say. But for me it doesnt happen constantly. But I am always available. What do you think.? We're to edify the believers spirit, not make a wreck of their life.[/QUOTE]

 

[Trish1947]

I will agree, the Spirit “inspires” utterance. But it is only the inspiration that is inspired, the words are mine. When I have prophesied, I usually only know the first sentence or so of the message but when I open my mouth I somehow find the words. When I am really bold - “If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith

When I said under the Spirits control, I meant, at least say something that is inspired by they Holy Spirit. I have seen so many that think they are so full of inspiration, they over step their bounds, and assume that everytime they open their mouths, it gives them license to say just anything at all, and call it prophacying, and inspiring. Especially, types of prophacy that tells a person something that is going to have a major effect on their life. Maybe the problem that is happening is some really dont have the gift, and assume they do? I even know of one person, that obeyed the prophacy, moved, certain things we're said about meeting a certain person in this place, blah, blah, it never happened. Then the person that prophacied these things layed it back on the recievers shoulders as not having enough faith. Can you explain this? Abuse of the gift? Or no gift? Most prophacy is uplifting, but what is it, when they are told things that will change their whole life. Thats to type of propacy that I'm leary about.