The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist"

[Kylie]

Would you agree that all drivers are potentially drunk drivers...and should be treated as such??

Or do you think that might actually be worse for your life in the long run than just looking for that one driver who's swerving all over the road?

Not drunk drivers, but I do look at all other drivers as potentially about to do something stupid, like cut in front of me. So I am always aware of what I can do. I keep track of if it is safe for me to suddenly swerve into the next lane to avoid a collision, for example. And doing so has saved me more times than I would care to admit.

 

[Kylie]

Funny. You used an analogy he used.

So did the Nazis.

So?

Would you prefer I use a different analogy? Would that make you feel better?

If I had a fleet of cars, and one of them was rigged with a bomb that would detonate as soon as you turned on the ignition, you would look at every car in that fleet as a potential bomb. It is not a statement about the cars, but about how you must look at the cars if you want to protect yourself.

If I had a hallway filled with doors, and one of them was rigged with a gun that would shoot you as soon as you opened the door, you would look at every door in that hall as a potential deathtrap. It is not a statement about the doors, but about how you must look at the cars if you want to protect yourself.

Do either of those work for you, or shall I find you another analogy to use?

 

[Kylie]

...even though you *just* told men what their lives are like? Are you even listening to yourself?

I'm sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that men don't what it's like to live as a woman.

But if it upsets you to have a woman tell you that you don't know what it's like to live as a woman, maybe I should...

Nah, not going to apologise for it.

 

[Kylie]

If you're so certain that only experience makes right, could you take also as seriously my male-experience about that using rhetoric like "all men are potential rapists" tunes peoples attitudes to assume default male guilt?

If a person - man or woman - claims that another person - man or woman - has sexually assaulted them, shouldn't we assume that the person who claims they were assaulted is telling the truth?

If you don't like the implied gender roles with men being the rapist and women being the victim of rape, then perhaps you need a good long hard look at the statistics.

https://thehathorlegacy.com/rape-statistics/

1 in 10 rape victims are men. (Rathus, Nevid and Fichner-Rathus, 568) (which means that 90% of victims are women)

93.7 percent of male rape perpetrators are male

So it can't be denied that most rapists are men, and most victims are women.

Oh, and "An American woman has a 25 to 26 percent chance of being raped in her lifetime (1 in 4). (Greenberg, Bruess and Haffner, 573; Horowitz, 413; Lips, 233)." Tell me, what is the chance that a man will be raped? According to the Wikipedia article, it is a 1 in 71 chance. So the chance is about 1 in 70 for men, and about 1 in 4 for women.

 

[Jack of Spades]

If a person - man or woman - claims that another person - man or woman - has sexually assaulted them, shouldn't we assume that the person who claims they were assaulted is telling the truth?

If you don't like the implied gender roles with men being the rapist and women being the victim of rape, then perhaps you need a good long hard look at the statistics.

https://thehathorlegacy.com/rape-statistics/

1 in 10 rape victims are men. (Rathus, Nevid and Fichner-Rathus, 568) (which means that 90% of victims are women)

93.7 percent of male rape perpetrators are male

So it can't be denied that most rapists are men, and most victims are women.

Oh, and "An American woman has a 25 to 26 percent chance of being raped in her lifetime (1 in 4). (Greenberg, Bruess and Haffner, 573; Horowitz, 413; Lips, 233)." Tell me, what is the chance that a man will be raped? According to the Wikipedia article, it is a 1 in 71 chance. So the chance is about 1 in 70 for men, and about 1 in 4 for women.

I am aware of these, and I'm afraid that we are again talking about different things here. I have no problems admitting statistical truths.

My problem is the rhetoric, which has more than one meaning. I have already said this, and so has @RDKirk but I repeat it once more:

The phrase "All men are potential rapists" is used by certain feminists to promote an idea of men being monsters who are only tamed temporarily, and are all the time seeking way to get out of their chains to attack women. Not just some men, but all men.

It's at the very best demeaning, and at the worst discriminatory view on males. That is why I take offense with the usage of that phrase.

 

[Gadarene]

If a person - man or woman - claims that another person - man or woman - has sexually assaulted them, shouldn't we assume that the person who claims they were assaulted is telling the truth?

If you don't like the implied gender roles with men being the rapist and women being the victim of rape, then perhaps you need a good long hard look at the statistics.

https://thehathorlegacy.com/rape-statistics/

1 in 10 rape victims are men. (Rathus, Nevid and Fichner-Rathus, 568) (which means that 90% of victims are women)

93.7 percent of male rape perpetrators are male

So it can't be denied that most rapists are men, and most victims are women.

Oh, and "An American woman has a 25 to 26 percent chance of being raped in her lifetime (1 in 4). (Greenberg, Bruess and Haffner, 573; Horowitz, 413; Lips, 233)." Tell me, what is the chance that a man will be raped? According to the Wikipedia article, it is a 1 in 71 chance. So the chance is about 1 in 70 for men, and about 1 in 4 for women.

By that logic being a terrorist is a role for Muslims, being a thief is a role for black people etc.

 

[Paidiske]

And amazingly, there are anti-radicalisation programmes in Muslim communities. There are attempts to work with black communities to improve educational outcomes etc. and lower the tendency to turn to crime.

But talk about how to prevent rape, and suddenly that's unacceptable. Apparently the logic is that women should just put up with it, because, you know, men might be hurt if we as a society actually try to do something?

Or if that's not the logic, then what are you proposing to actually lower the rape rate?

 

[Gadarene]

I'm sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that men don't what it's like to live as a woman.

But if it upsets you to have a woman tell you that you don't know what it's like to live as a woman, maybe I should...

Nah, not going to apologise for it.

You literally just contradicted yourself. Why on earth should we take that point seriously? You don't have any more clue what it's like to be a man anymore than we do about being a woman.

You evidently aren't aware men are more likely to be physically assaulted, for one. And yet most men I know don't seem to have this overweening fear of it that so many women have which tends to outright bigotry.

 

[Gadarene]

So?

So what you are doing is out-and-out bigotry.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-syrian-refugees-trayvon-martin-a7318496.html

I mean, this is literally used today to describe refugees and in the past, the Jews by the Nazis.

How much clearly do you need it pointed out that what you are saying is bigotry? You do realise that applies to men too, right?

Would you prefer I use a different analogy? Would that make you feel better?

I'd prefer if you stopped being bigoted, not least given the whining that occurs when women are spoken of in the same fashion.

Fear is an unreliable evaluator of risk, and it is obviously leading you into bigotry. Reconsider.

 

[Gadarene]

And amazingly, there are anti-radicalisation programmes in Muslim communities. There are attempts to work with black communities to improve educational outcomes etc. and lower the tendency to turn to crime.

But talk about how to prevent rape, and suddenly that's unacceptable. Apparently the logic is that women should just put up with it, because, you know, men might be hurt if we as a society actually try to do something?

Don't misrepresent. Just because I am telling people not to engage in misandric bigotry does not mean I am trying to hinder the prevention of rape.

I am saying do it without being bigoted. Apply your imagination.

Or if that's not the logic, then what are you proposing to actually lower the rape rate?

I think these women letting go of their overreactive, bigoted fear would improve their quality of life immensely, without really affecting their risk of rape.

 

[RDKirk]

And amazingly, there are anti-radicalisation programmes in Muslim communities. There are attempts to work with black communities to improve educational outcomes etc. and lower the tendency to turn to crime.

None of those programs presumes a natural propensity in Muslims to be radical or blacks to be criminal. Rather, they presume exactly the opposite: That it's nurture, not nature, that must be corrected.

But talk about how to prevent rape, and suddenly that's unacceptable. Apparently the logic is that women should just put up with it, because, you know, men might be hurt if we as a society actually try to do something?

Or if that's not the logic, then what are you proposing to actually lower the rape rate?

Your proposal is that rape is natural to men and the only way to lower the rate is to treat all men all the time as though they were ravaging animals.

 

[Gadarene]

Tell me, what is the chance that a man will be raped? According to the Wikipedia article, it is a 1 in 71 chance. So the chance is about 1 in 70 for men, and about 1 in 4 for women.

And I knew as soon as you posted that figure that you haven't looked into this even remotely. That 1 in 71 line is a dead giveaway.

Pull up that CDC study, and have a look at the stats for men "made to penetrate".

 

[Gadarene]

None of those programs presumes a natural propensity in Muslims to be radical or blacks to be criminal. Rather, they presume exactly the opposite: That it's nurture, not nature, that must be corrected.

 

[Jack of Spades]

But talk about how to prevent rape, and suddenly that's unacceptable.

That is literally a lie. At least anywhere in the western world.

A lot of measures have been taken during last century to recognize rape problem, to educate people, to campaign against it and most importantly, recognize variety of sexual offenses in legislation. Like for example, the introduction of the concept of marital rape which is fairly new one.

 

[Jack of Spades]

None of those programs presumes a natural propensity in Muslims to be radical or blacks to be criminal. Rather, they presume exactly the opposite: That it's nurture, not nature, that must be corrected.

The first thing anti-terrorist experts say when they educate a police force about it, is to take measures in avoiding to make the Muslim community feel like an enemy. That's only going to be counter-productive.

Maybe it would be a good idea for the anti-rape activists to read some stuff written by the anti-terrorist experts on how to deal with "male community" to avoid the women vs men - tone.

 

[Paidiske]

None of those programs presumes a natural propensity in Muslims to be radical or blacks to be criminal. Rather, they presume exactly the opposite: That it's nurture, not nature, that must be corrected.

Your proposal is that rape is natural to men and the only way to lower the rate is to treat all men all the time as though they were ravaging animals.

No; my proposal is the exact opposite. My proposal is that our culture allows and propagates the attitudes which lead to men becoming rapists, and that those can be addressed.

But, when that has been done successfully, as in the "Don't be that guy" campaign, suddenly I'm told that's bigoted!

That is literally a lie. At least anywhere in the western world.

A lot of measures have been taken during last century to recognize rape problem, to educate people, to campaign against it and most importantly, recognize variety of sexual offenses in legislation. Like for example, the introduction of the concept of marital rape which is fairly new one.

And yet, as I just said, when I gave an example of a successful campaign, instead of saying, "Gee, that's great, how can we do more of that?" In this very thread, it's being met with cries of "Bigot!"

The mind boggles.

 

[Gadarene]

No; my proposal is the exact opposite. My proposal is that our culture allows and propagates the attitudes which lead to men becoming rapists, and that those can be addressed.

And there you are singling men and only men out again.

Women rape too.

But, when that has been done successfully, as in the "Don't be that guy" campaign, suddenly I'm told that's bigoted!

It is bigoted! What sort of reaction do you think a "Hey black people, don't steal cars mmkay" poster would get?

And yet, as I just said, when I gave an example of a successful campaign, instead of saying, "Gee, that's great, how can we do more of that?" In this very thread, it's being met with cries of "Bigot!"

The mind boggles.

Yes, we should just gladly go along with men and only men being singled out for education about how not to rape. Let's become complicit in prejudice against ourselves. In a society where we regularly ignore the fact that women rape. Genius.

 

[Jack of Spades]

And yet, as I just said, when I gave an example of a successful campaign, instead of saying, "Gee, that's great, how can we do more of that?" In this very thread, it's being met with cries of "Bigot!"

I would advice you to see the difference between me and the person who said that, since you are commenting to me. I am not responsible for Gadaranes comments. Would you please not generalize mine and Gadaranes comments as representatives of something same.

I have already suggested both generally the idea to find a new tone to talk about rape, and particularly two sources to find inspiration for that, one was to read Michelle Obama's speech and the second one was to take a look at anti-terrorist experts on how to communicate with Muslim community, for an example case of effective communication.

 

[MehGuy]

Don't be that guy..

Is "Don't be that black person" fine too? Lol.

Sounds a little racist, right?

 

[Paidiske]

And there you are singling men and only men out again.

Women rape too.

I was responding to the claim that RDKirk made that I thought being a rapist was innate to a man. In that context, mentioning women who rape would have been beside the point.

It is bigoted! What sort of reaction do you think a "Hey black people, don't steal cars mmkay" poster would get?

Well, given that it actually worked, maybe it had a point?

Yes, we should just gladly go along with men and only men being singled out for education about how not to rape. Let's become complicit in prejudice against ourselves. In a society where we regularly ignore the fact that women rape. Genius.

You want to address women rapists, be my guest. But given that particular attitudes have been shown to drive the behaviour of men who rape, and we can address those attitudes, I'd like to actually do that.