The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist"

[Paidiske]

"Differently" to what? I talked about modifying my own behaviour (eg. where I go etc), not how I treat other people.

I'm aware that it's neither morally right nor polite to treat other people badly just because I'm aware that they have potential to do the wrong thing. I do not, nor do I advocate that others, behave towards men in the way that you've described.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

You ALL have issues...
I teach a class, with the classroom door closed, that is mostly men. There's one female student and me (the instructor). I don't think ANY of the men are "potential rapists" at all. Most of the guys could probably overpower me...but...nothing.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

So she would walk anywhere, at any time of day or night, alone? Dressed however she'd like? Perhaps after a drink or two? Or does she take these precautions so automatically now that she doesn't even think about them?

She doesn't take precautions because she thinks that any man she's sees might potentially rape her. She doesn't drink or dress provocatively, not because she's protecting herself, but because she just doesn't do those things. After reading this thread, she told me that she'd hate to be the kind of person so afraid of men that looking at every man as a potential rapist is even considered an option. Because it could lead to her mistrusting all men for absolutely no reason.

I do believe my first post in this thread was saying that the "all men" bit was unhelpful. I don't think all men are potential rapists. My point was that I can't know which men the potential rapists are.

I was at the zoo with my wife years ago when I felt a small hand in mine. I looked down and a small boy of probably two was looking up at me holding my hand. As I bent down to ask him where his parents were, I heard a scream. A woman, his mother, ran up to me and continued screaming that I was trying to take her son. A crowd gathered. People who worked at the zoo came over and demanded to know who I was. If my wife hadn't been there to diffuse the situation, it could have turned ugly.

The mother was behaving as if all men were potential child molesters in order to "protect" her child. Similar to what you said in previous post:

"So no, not every man is a potential rapist, but I almost have to behave as if that were true (in order to protect myself) because I have no way of knowing which man is a potential rapist."

The fact that the media has ran with this idea of men being potential child molesters has soured society to the idea of a man seen alone with a child. Because of people like the woman at the zoo, if I see a child wandering in a crowd alone, I'll have my wife approach the child. If I'm by myself, I say nothing. That's the harm that can come about when you demonize a group of people.

Similarly, I remember back in the 80's when people started talking about date rape. The media got ahold of the idea and ramped up the rhetoric to a fever pitch. At one point, I watched a talk show where a feminist (it actually said "Feminist" under her name) told women that if they had any regrets the day after having sex with a man, it was rape and they should have the man arrested. This insanity was caused by the paranoia of labeling an entire group of people "predators" and treating them as such.

It's not healthy (this statement is from my wife by the way).

 

[Dave-W]

I don't believe I'm prejudiced against men. I would not treat a man badly as a classmate, colleague, or church member (etc) because he is a man. So what exactly is it that you're objecting to?

Next you will be telling us some of your best friends are men??

 

[Paidiske]

I asked a serious question, Dave. What wrong action are you accusing me of?

 

[Dave-W]

No, I wouldn't, nor am I fine when people behave that way towards men.

Yes you are.

It sounds like it is ok to think that way, and take precautions on the sly; but not to OPENLY act that way. That way you don't LOOK prejudiced.

Didn't Rev Charles Simpson call that "Imageism?"

 

[Dave-W]

I asked a serious question, Dave. What wrong action are you accusing me of?

Post 86 sums it up; at least that is how your posts are coming across to me.

------------------------------------------------

It occurs to me that there must have been some kind of trauma in your life (or you took on some one else's trauma) concerning rape. If so, I would suggest you get some good spiritual counseling to put that issue out of your life.

My wife was the target of a rapist and it almost happened when she was in jr high school. Some quick thinking people and a nearby policeman stopped it before it got too far. I have never heard her say anything like what you are posting here and we have been married 39 years.

 

[Paidiske]

I've never heard of Rev. Charles Simpson or imageism. Google's bringing up stuff about poetry for imageism, and I don't think that's what you meant, but I honestly don't know what you mean.

I think it is okay for people to take precautions for their own safety. I think it is okay for organisations to have structures, protocols and procedures aimed at minimising vulnerability. I do not think it is okay to treat other people badly or with prejudice.

I didn't think that was really all that controversial a set of ideas.

 

[Dave-W]

Rev. Charles Simpson is a Southern Baptist pastor (now semi-retired) from Mobile, Alabama, US. He is an acquaintance of both my wife and I. If you have ever heard of Hosanna Integrity worship CDs, they grew out of his ministry.

"Imageism" as used by him back in the 1970s and 80s referred to the tendency of believers to try to look like something they really are not; more mature, more spiritual, etc.

 

[Gadarene]

I'd not be at all surprised to learn that women physically or emotionally abuse children more than men, (although I haven't seen any studies), if only because we're more often the primary carers.

And men are generally socialised into roles requiring violence, so it is not surprising they commit more violence. But that's used as a club to beat us with, but heaven forfend we treat women the same way.

We are all socialised into these roles - but only men are blamed for acting out the role they have been socialised into.

 

[Gadarene]

But nobody is suggesting focussing on male teachers in a way that isn't done to female teachers. Or at least, I'm not, so if you apply that to me, that's not what I'm saying at all.

That's a hypothetical based on the particular example being talked about. Schrodinger's Rapist is gendered, and it's what you were defending.

They don't understand that we don't have the option to pretend that there is no risk. And that's where explanations that in fact, we have to treat everybody as a potential risk, in order to minimise the risk of the few who are the problem, become important.

But Schrodinger's Rapist isn't that. And when the bulk of approaches that profile based on innate traits are rejected but that one is not then a conclusion of bigotry against men becomes inevitable. There is no female equivalent of Schrodinger's Rapist that is regularly directed at women regarding rape, and women most certainly do rape and often.

 

[Albion]

Well, not all men. The president, Mrs. Clinton, and every elected Democrat has told us that no Mexican can be a rapist, so that must be a really safe place for women to live.

 

[Gadarene]

"Differently" to what? I talked about modifying my own behaviour (eg. where I go etc), not how I treat other people.

I'm aware that it's neither morally right nor polite to treat other people badly just because I'm aware that they have potential to do the wrong thing. I do not, nor do I advocate that others, behave towards men in the way that you've described.

But that's what you are doing. Profiling any man as a potential rapist simply because he is a man will have an effect on how you do treat him and it will have knockon effects, particularly as "men are rapists" is a pre-existing anti-male stereotype.

 

[Gadarene]

Next you will be telling us some of your best friends are men??

The feminist equivalent of "I'm not racist, I have black friends" is "I'm not misandrist, I'm dating a man!"

Right, like no misogynists have ever dated women ever.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Well, not all men. The president, Mrs. Clinton, and every elected Democrat has told us that no Mexican can be a rapist, so that must be a really safe place for women to live.

Source or retract please.

 

[Paidiske]

only men are blamed for acting out the role they have been socialised into.

If only that were true... but it isn't. How many times do people blame women, for - for example - not leaving their abusers?

But Schrodinger's Rapist isn't that.

"That"'s pretty much my understanding of Schrödinger’s Rapist. So if you think it's something else, what do you think it is?

Profiling any man as a potential rapist simply because he is a man will have an effect on how you do treat him and it will have knockon effects, particularly as "men are rapists" is a pre-existing anti-male stereotype.

Profiling's a very loaded word, that suggests that the profiler targets the profiled for different treatment in some way. I disagree that that's what I'm doing. You need to demonstrate your accusation of different treatment for this to have any relevance.

 

[Gadarene]

If only that were true... but it isn't. How many times do people blame women, for - for example - not leaving their abusers?

Yeah, fair, I'll update the original remark.

Only men are blamed for acting out the role they have been socialised into by people who claim to want gender equality and whom should really know better.

"That"'s pretty much my understanding of Schrödinger’s Rapist. So if you think it's something else, what do you think it is?

Schrodinger's Rapist isn't gender neutral.

Profiling's a very loaded word, that suggests that the profiler targets the profiled for different treatment in some way. I disagree that that's what I'm doing. You need to demonstrate your accusation of different treatment for this to have any relevance.

You are adapting your behaviour to members of one gender, based only on their gender.

 

[Paidiske]

Schrödinger’s Rapist is only not gender neutral because it's an attempt to explain to men why women might be self-protective. But the underlying principle is gender neutral.

I don't know about you, but I behave differently towards men and women in general (not just in reference to self-protection). I think that's probably pretty normal socialised behaviour too. And given that any self-protective behaviour I might engage in (and this is the point) has no adverse affect on any man, I'm still not seeing what the issue is here.

 

[Gadarene]

Schrödinger’s Rapist is only not gender neutral because it's an attempt to explain to men why women might be self-protective. But the underlying principle is gender neutral.

One might as well say the mindset behind being suspicious of "driving while black" has an underlying basis of racial equality and it would make as much sense. The problem is that when it comes to basic actions like, I don't know, a guy walking down the street minding his own business, people like you encourage this bigoted profiling of men.

I don't know about you, but I behave differently towards men and women in general (not just in reference to self-protection). I think that's probably pretty normal socialised behaviour too.

Socialised, but not representative of reality. Treating all men as potential rapists and not so with women, even though there are plenty of women rapists, is not an accurate assessment of one's risk, if that's really what you're concerned about.

And given that any self-protective behaviour I might engage in (and this is the point) has no adverse affect on any man, I'm still not seeing what the issue is here.

So you keep asserting, even though I've already addressed this and you agreed with my examples, make your mind up. I don't know what planet you have to live on to think that treating men like potential rapists because they are men isn't going to lead to adverse effects on men. There is a stereotype of men are rapists out there (which is obviously untrue as women rape too), and this mindset of yours plays right into it. This is taken as a given when the target is any minority group, but when men are the target, the rules must of course change.

TIL thinking that plays right into harmful stereotypes doesn't harm people

 

[Gadarene]

I think women can't do science, but this is just part of having high education standards for everyone.
I think Jewish people can't be trusted with other people's money, but this is just part of a general unbiased principle of racial equality.
I think gay people should be treated as potential paedophiles, but this is just part of child protection generally.

Anyway it's ok, because attitudes have no impact on others whatsoever.

Yup absolutely nothing wrong with expressing any of these ideas and that would in no way heap mountains of crap upon your head for the open bigotry you just expressed