The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist"

Paidiske · Nov 1, 2016

'salright, Dave, I work with eternity as the horizon, so efficiency is less of an imperative for me.

Gadarene · Nov 1, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
But which is more efficient? Since 90+% of the rapists are men, should that not be where you get the most "bang for the buck?"

Is it profiling? Yes.
Is it biased? yes.

But is that REALLY such a bad thing?

Based on an inadequate definition. And I'm really not interested in having existing definitions quoted at me again.

Gadarene · Nov 1, 2016

Paidiske said:
'salright, Dave, I work with eternity as the horizon, so efficiency is less of an imperative for me.

As is equality, apparently.

Dave-W · Nov 1, 2016

KTS said:
Yes, it does say that only 4.8% of men were made to penetrate someone, but like I said before, are you really claiming that this is the only way a man can be raped?

If the man is doing the penetration, he is the rapist, not the raped. For the man to be raped - someone or something must penetrate HIM.

Jack of Spades · Nov 1, 2016

JeriB said:
Perhaps the real pity is - it seems to me - too many can only support one side of the divide by denigrating the other.... and that is what we should look to fix rather than perhaps promoting the other side to the detriment of the other again?

You have a point. Rape, or sexual violence generally, is a bit of a special topic, because the gender cap is so big.

What I ask of women is to understand my concerns, which is that I don't want to live in a society, or in human relationships, where I'm automatically assumed guilty of something, or being morally compromised, because of my sex.

If women are willing to do that bit of understanding for me, I am willing to do the same and try to understand both their fears and their safety concerns. It just gotta go both ways.

What I would also like women to remember is that most (in Finland, at least) men despise rapists, this is most evident in prisons, rapists and pedophiles are the first ones who get beat up or murdered by other inmates.

Paidiske · Nov 1, 2016

For the record, I do not believe that a man (any man) is guilty of something, or morally compromised, because of his sex.

That is not what I have been saying at all, and if my words have come across that way, I apologise for being unclear.

For me, though, the issue goes beyond fear or safety concerns, to a deeper question of underlying attitudes. If we allow the attitudes which, in an acute case, bring a man to a be a rapist, to be unchallenged when they are (for want of a better word) sub-acute, we perpetuate the formation of those rapists. I want to challenge those attitudes in our society wherever they manifest, and it's resistance to that challenge which I find so frustrating.

Jack of Spades · Nov 1, 2016

Paidiske said:
It's a good speech, for what it is; part of a political campaign. I'm sure it swayed some voters. I'm not sure it's a model for the kind of deep attitudinal work we're talking about here, though.

Well, sorry to be blunt but if I am willing to be a cheerleader for talking about rape culture when Michelle Obama does it, but I get frustrated when you do it, maybe that's a bit of a tell that there could be something to learn from her way of doing it. If you want males to be part of the effort, that is. The fact that I'm willing to quote her speech should already prove that I have no problem with bringing up the topic.

She manages to make it a case of "men and women vs rape culture and the people who promote it", which is a very nice point of view, compared to the "men are potential rapists" in the topic.

Paidiske · Nov 1, 2016

Hey, I didn't start this topic. And I came into it to nuance it.

But when I read the speech I thought Michelle Obama wasn't blunt enough in naming rape culture for what it is. She pointed at Donald and said "We don't like him," but she was so softly-softly that most of the hard issues weren't even named.

Which, like I said, is fine for what her speech was; a vote plea for Dr. Clinton. But as serious challenge to rape culture I think it is weak.

Dave-W · Nov 1, 2016

Paidiske said:
But when I read the speech I thought Michelle Obama wasn't blunt enough in naming rape culture for what it is. She pointed at Donald and said "We don't like him," but she was so softly-softly that most of the hard issues weren't even named.

Yeah - that is her style. Soft peddling everything.

RDKirk · Nov 1, 2016

Paidiske said:
Hey, I didn't start this topic. And I came into it to nuance it.

Which goes back to my post #268. You can't nuance the phrase "Every man is a potential rapist" any more than I can nuance "Black Lives Matter" because other people are swinging as a battleax.

Gadarene · Nov 1, 2016

Jack of Spades said:
Well, sorry to be blunt but if I am willing to be a cheerleader for talking about rape culture when Michelle Obama does it, but I get frustrated when you do it, maybe that's a bit of a tell that there could be something to learn from her way of doing it. If you want males to be part of the effort, that is.

Yeah as far as I'm concerned we either do this equality thing properly or not at all. And when fair treatment is being demanded of us but not delivered by those issuing the demands, men should refuse to help.

Gadarene · Nov 1, 2016

KTS said:
Wow, you are calling me bigoted because I used a particular analogy that was used by bad people.

Wow, that's amazing.

Are we to say that men with facial hair are bad as well because Hitler and Stalin had facial hair?

Or can you start addressing the actual topic rather than quibbling over an analogy.

Ok, apparently I have to make the point even simpler. This is not a genetic fallacy.

I'm saying that when you use the same logic that was (and still is) being used to dehumanise people and justify bigotry then for you that necessarily entails:

1) hey presto, you're being bigoted too

2) you really might want to rethink your argument and possibly also your life given that you are *literally* spouting Nazi logic used to justify inequality and calling it equality

Jack of Spades · Nov 1, 2016

Gadarene said:
Yeah as far as I'm concerned we either do this equality thing properly or not at all. And when fair treatment is being demanded of us but not delivered by those issuing the demands, men should refuse to help.

I'm all for equality. I like it, but the history of the topic where "equality = women's rights" has a baggage that's starting to cause problems.

Paidiske said:
But as serious challenge to rape culture I think it is weak.

Maybe that is exactly the point?

For comparison, every time someone wants to care about citizen rights, or privacy in anti-terrorist effort, they get accused for being weak on terror. When Trump calls for ban of Muslims, and someone says it's not ok, they're called too soft on terrorism. It's a good comparison. Often perceived weakness isn't weakness, but it means one has the wisdom and foresight to avoid causing another problem while trying to solve one.

In fight against racism, Martin Luther King was a lot softer than many of his collagues, yet he was the one who made the biggest difference. Because he saw the big picture, and very admirably, didn't make enemies of whites. His dream was to sit together with the whites.

Zoii · Nov 1, 2016

Gadarene said:
Physically. And no, my point is unchanged. And no, you are not being harassed (kek).

You made a bigoted statement publicly and got called on it. Get over it. You don't want it to happen again, don't make bigoted statement k?

So you didnt... u lied - just as I thought - caught out and squirmed

Gadarene · Nov 1, 2016

Zoii said:
So you didnt... u lied - just as I thought - caught out and squirmed

No, excuse me, I never claimed I was.

You made a bigoted statement. I challenged it. You then assumed baselessly that I must not have been sexually assaulted because I called you out. You had no justification whatsoever either for that narrow-minded assumption or your bigotry.

Work on your prejudice and that false assumption. Trying to deflect them by falsely accusing people of lying isn't helping you.

Zoii · Nov 1, 2016

Gadarene said:
No, excuse me, I never claimed I was.

You made a bigoted statement. I challenged it. You then assumed baselessly that I must not have been sexually assaulted because I called you out. You had no justification whatsoever either for that assumption or your bigotry.

Work on your prejudice and that false assumption. Trying to deflect them by falsely accusing people of lying isn't helping you.

I appreciate it is very unconfortable being caught out - when you want to put me down for having fear of men, by saying get over it and arguing you too have had my experiences.... and then suddenly you dont - I'll leave it at that. Theres little point you saying more as youve just reinforced the worste of my original thoughts.

Gadarene · Nov 1, 2016

Zoii said:
I appreciate it is very unconfortable being caught out - when you want to put me down for having fear of men, by saying get over it and arguing you too have had my experiences.... and then suddenly you dont - I'll leave it at that. Theres little point you saying more as youve just reinforced the worste of my original thoughts.

Where did I say I had your experiences? I asked how you could be sure I *didn't* have your experiences just because I corrected you, and pointed out that other bad things happen to people that they don't use as an excuse for bigotry.

Great exercise in projection nonetheless, bravo.

Zoii · Nov 1, 2016

Gadarene said:
Where did I say I had your experiences? I asked how you could be sure I *didn't* have your experiences just because I corrected you, and pointed out that other bad things happen to people that they don't use as an excuse for bigotry.

Great exercise in projection nonetheless, bravo.

You say what you say - youve been caught out for the nonsense - Now deal with it and take responsibility for your actions.

Gadarene · Nov 1, 2016

Zoii said:
You say what you say - youve been caught out for the nonsense - Now deal with it and take responsibility for your actions.

I've done nothing wrong. Work on your prejudice.

Zoii · Nov 1, 2016

Gadarene said:
I've done nothing wrong. Work on your prejudice.

let me know when your ready to be responsible for the things you say and do

The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist"

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